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rudder use

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Old 06-08-2007, 07:05 AM
  #1  
CB36
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Default rudder use

Hi all;
OK, I admit it, I'm a "bank-and-yank" flier! I'm getting the picture that I'd be much better off if I learned to coordinate my turns, especially with my new H9 Cub.

Should I dial in some expo on the rudder? Will that help me ? Any suggestions as to how to unlearn my bad habits?
Thanks!!
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Old 06-08-2007, 07:26 AM
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Default RE: rudder use

I did a bunch of touch-n-goes with my cubs in heavy crosswinds . This really improved my rudder . aileron coordination. Figure 8s would be a good way to practice rudder turns , be careful thou as the Cubs wing stall easily.
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Old 06-08-2007, 07:28 AM
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Default RE: rudder use

Any suggestions as to how to unlearn my bad habits?
Learn to fly helis! That will fix your bad habits. I didn't have very good throttle or rudder management until I learned to fly helis
Seriously, it just takes practice. You will be able to see when you have the right amount of rudder. The tail and the nose should be following the exact same path. Too much, and the tail will be above the nose. Too little and the tail will be lower than the nose. The Cub is definetely likes rudder in turns. In a full scale cub, I initiate the turn with rudder. Then add aileron to keep the turn coordinated and elevator to maintain altitude. Practice practice practice! It's the only way to un-learn bad habits.
Good luck!
Doug
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Old 06-08-2007, 01:54 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

Right rudder on inside loops, left rudder on outside loops.
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Old 06-08-2007, 07:24 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

I wouldn't dial in expo just yet. Get comfy using the rudder first. Otherwise it may end up being a crutch instead of an aid.
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Old 06-09-2007, 02:47 AM
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Default RE: rudder use

As a glider pilot you learn very quickly what your feet are for. In fact, rudder becomes your best friend during a turbulent aerotow. Of course the long wings on a glider really amplify the "adverse yaw" introduced by that differential in lift as the ailerons bank the wings. It is so pronounced that if you slap the stick to the right without rudder input to the right the nose swings way to the left. I watched a guy flying a trainer last weekend and could see how the nose was swinging outside the turn in uncoordinated flight as he "yanked and banked". I think mixing rudder isnt the best way to learn coordination. Using both sticks together makes more sense and also coming in for landing a bit high and slipping it in helps keep your rudder finger awake. The importance of rudder is very much a mystery to many people in R/C whereas its something that must be mastered when flying full size aircraft. Especially if your landing in a strong cross wind and would like to be able to use the airplane again afterwards.

Just another 2 cents worth

T~
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:15 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

First, a disclaimer: I am by no means an "expert pilot". I have been flying RC for 3 years. I make a lot of mistakes and I've crashed a few times but never trashed a plane.

Anyhow, I think models should be flown using the same control principles as full-scale aircraft. You will never find a full-scale pilot school that tells its trainees not to use their rudders except for taxiing, but this is frequently told to novice RC pilots. Yes, you CAN fly with ailerons and elevator only, but the rudder is there for a reason.

It's not hard to fly using both thumbs, and you don't need to use the computer in your radio to run your rudder. As firstplaceaviator said, it just takes practice.
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Old 07-13-2007, 03:57 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

I always use the rudder... its not for ground control, it assists your turns and lines you up with the runway better. Using the rudder is a good habit to get into... It gives you better control.



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Old 07-13-2007, 09:42 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

If you want to practice rudder, get your trainer out (or your built to plans Astro Hog!)...if you still have one. Take-off and fly the whole flight using only your rudder, WITHOUT using your ailerons at all. You will be surprised how well they will fly that way. Actually, it is kinda fun! Back in the "old days" when I learned to fly, that was all I had. Obviously, this little excersise is a little more difficult, or dang near impossible, with a more aerobatic platform. Remember the rudder controls the direction that the plane is pointed, all the ailerons do is bank the wings.

Have fun,

Mike
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:43 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

the only reason peoplle say that rudder is not important in RC is because the only thing the rudder does in flight is counter adverse yaw, and to "keep the ball centered" neither of which mean a tinkers hoot in small scale model aviation. When the models get bigger, like with the cub, adverse yaw becomes more of a problem. I have been suckered in to this debate before but what the hey I'll jump in again. The rudder is not meant to turn the plane. It is useful on landing to keep the nose pointed in to the relative wind, but as for turning, well if simply pointing the nose in a new direction did the trick then why do side slips work. If all you need to do is point the nose then in a slip the plane should take off in a new direction.

By all means, use the rudder on a large model for a better looking and smoother flight. Use the rudder to stay on center line when landing, but unless you are flying a hampster around, don't worry about the "ball"

And before any one jumps on me about knife edge etc. Let me say that we are talking about flying the pattern here, not extreme 3D. A full scale airplane will fly very well thank you very much, with out using rudder. its un comfortable and the nose will try to come up (adverse yaw) but you can do turns around a point till your fuel runs out.

So the reason some are told not to worry about it is because some trainees have enough trouble learning the right stick, so if we can set the left one aside till the trainee gets more comfortable then they will be more calm and relaxed and have a better chance of success.
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Old 07-14-2007, 03:00 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

ORIGINAL: superflea

the only reason peoplle say that rudder is not important in RC is because the only thing the rudder does in flight is counter adverse yaw, and to "keep the ball centered" neither of which mean a tinkers hoot in small scale model aviation. When the models get bigger, like with the cub, adverse yaw becomes more of a problem. I have been suckered in to this debate before but what the hey I'll jump in again. The rudder is not meant to turn the plane. It is useful on landing to keep the nose pointed in to the relative wind, but as for turning, well if simply pointing the nose in a new direction did the trick then why do side slips work. If all you need to do is point the nose then in a slip the plane should take off in a new direction.

By all means, use the rudder on a large model for a better looking and smoother flight. Use the rudder to stay on center line when landing, but unless you are flying a hampster around, don't worry about the "ball"

And before any one jumps on me about knife edge etc. Let me say that we are talking about flying the pattern here, not extreme 3D. A full scale airplane will fly very well thank you very much, with out using rudder. its un comfortable and the nose will try to come up (adverse yaw) but you can do turns around a point till your fuel runs out.

So the reason some are told not to worry about it is because some trainees have enough trouble learning the right stick, so if we can set the left one aside till the trainee gets more comfortable then they will be more calm and relaxed and have a better chance of success.





I'm a registered pilot, if rudder wasn't important... then none of the full scale planes would have it. On final we use the rudder to YAW, keeping the wings level on final.

Rudder is used for direction, Ailerons are for banking. In a proper turn you need the rudder, aileron and elevator to to make a proper turn without loss of airspeed or altitude.

This is taught in ground school, so there is no point in arguing the dynamics of flight. R/C Aircraft are real aircraft, just at a smaller scale. So the same principles apply.

Get in the habit of using your rudder and you WILL become a better flyer, and you will have better control of your aircraft.


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Old 07-14-2007, 06:29 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

Yes sir, I understand that in full scale aircraft WE use the rudder. I know it is taught in ground school and rightly so. My point is that there is a difference between models and full scale in that the primary reason for co ordinated turns in full scale has to do with countering adverse yaw and passenger comfort. IF you dont mind the adverse yaw or passenger comfort as is the case in small unmanned aircraft (models) then the importance of the rudder is greatly diminished in flight. I did mention that the rudder is used on landing to keep the nose pointed in the proper direction. That does not mean it is used to turn change course but rather to keep the nose pointed in to the realitive wind while still flying straight down the runway. one reason for this is that the rudder is the last control surface to stall. Hell in a C150 when you do the run up prior to take off at 1200 RPMs check that things are free and correct and you can feel the tail trying to swing around from just the prop wash. That tells me that you have controllability well below safe flying speed. where as the ailerons will lose authority much sooner and that could be bad at 10 or 15 feet above concrete. so by all means use it on landing. I'm only talking about rudder being REQUIRED for normal flight on a model where there are no air sick bags and adverse yaw has to do more with aesthetics than any real and solid aerodynamic reasons.

You asked why full scale planes have a rudder if they aren't needed. the reason is because the Wrights built the first manned heavier than air aircraft with rudders. And no i don't want to get in to the debate as to weather history is mistaken on who was first. If the first plan didn't have rudders then none of the follow on aircraft would have either. The Wrights didn't have Ailerons, it took years to work out the solution to the control problems that this oversight caused. First wing warping which led to full use ailerons. So the question is, If Rudder only is import, then why was a decade spent fixing it.
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Old 07-14-2007, 08:06 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

I started on a rudder only Sig Senior. Last year I put about 80 flights on a 10 sized Shrike. It doesn't have a rudder and flys great without it. But I sure missed having the rudder as it does limit the planes abilities. I did semi-retire it. I have a 40 size Shrike to build and have toyed with the idea of adding rudders to it.
I currently am flying a pattern plane with huge tail controls. It is a kick to fly the pattern sliding through turns with the rudder and keeping it level with ailerons.
It's all fun, MikeB
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:42 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

If you get a big semi scale bipe it will look MUCH more realistic if you coordinate rudder and aileron in turns.

I have just sold a 1/4 scale lightly built Stampe that was a delight to fly but looked like a model flown aileron only and somehow looked 'right' when flown with both.
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:46 PM
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Default RE: rudder use

Learn to use rudder? Yes, but for coordinated turns? I don't bother.

I use rudder for Takeoff and Landing and aerobatic maneuvers.
I dial in rudder interconnect on my txmtr that has that feature.
I don't have ail-rud interconnect on my other transmitters.
Adverse yaw is a transient thing; can't see it on some planes; so I don't bother with coordinated turns.
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