Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > Questions and Answers
Reload this Page >

Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

Questions and Answers If you have general RC questions or answers discuss it here.

Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

Reply

Old 07-22-2010, 02:58 PM
  #1  
Oberst
Banned
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Lacona, NY
Posts: 1,840
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

I'm currently re-building, re-covering and modifying a discontinued Great Planes .60 Fokker DR1 and I noticed the original owner pined all the hinges. I have not ever needed to pin any CA hinges but I've not ever used nylon hinges before. If I decide to use nylon, is it necessary to pin them if the nylon hinge is epoxied well?

I have the whole plane striped, and most glued parts removed like the stabilizer, that was fun. With enough while chiping away the old epoxy, I got it off without damage. But what a pain it is to remove the hinges if they are pined! [:@]

Pete
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Sq48023.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	113.9 KB
ID:	1471808   Click image for larger version

Name:	Ql34081.jpg
Views:	12
Size:	133.3 KB
ID:	1471809  
Oberst is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 03:24 PM
  #2  
da Rock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near Pfafftown NC
Posts: 11,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

Never pinned hinges other than the one time some years back.

Never had any surface pull out. Never had any hinge pull out. Had a number of stab flutters and not one hinge failed even when there was damage back there. Those most certainly would be significant tests for hinges pulling out.

If you install any hinge into a tight slot with the appropriate amount and type of glue, nothing more is needed.

BTW, I've used nylon hinges for quite awhile, since they came out. Started using CA hinges when they showed up because they were so simple and quick. But they looked risky so I tested with a number of glues. If they're installed correctly they're bulletproof. The only ones I've ever experienced that failed were in a really cheap model and they looked cheap. I've yet to see any that looked cheap since.

If you don't do the pinning job correctly, there is a strong argument that you're actually weakening the hinge area. Of course, most "craftsmen" whose skills lead them to pin, would also be ones who are apt to pin improperly. It's a never ending circle, ain't it.
da Rock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 03:26 PM
  #3  
dignlivn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Deland, FL
Posts: 1,993
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?




IMO,


Pinned hinges is like Insurance.

I have had CA hinges split but not
come out of their slots. Same with
nylon hinges too.

Bob
dignlivn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 05:13 PM
  #4  
FLAPHappy
My Feedback: (209)
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: right here
Posts: 867
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?


ORIGINAL: da Rock

Never pinned hinges other than the one time some years back.

Never had any surface pull out. Never had any hinge pull out. Had a number of stab flutters and not one hinge failed even when there was damage back there. Those most certainly would be significant tests for hinges pulling out.

If you install any hinge into a tight slot with the appropriate amount and type of glue, nothing more is needed.

BTW, I've used nylon hinges for quite awhile, since they came out. Started using CA hinges when they showed up because they were so simple and quick. But they looked risky so I tested with a number of glues. If they're installed correctly they're bulletproof. The only ones I've ever experienced that failed were in a really cheap model and they looked cheap. I've yet to see any that looked cheap since.

If you don't do the pinning job correctly, there is a strong argument that you're actually weakening the hinge area. Of course, most "craftsmen" whose skills lead them to pin, would also be ones who are apt to pin improperly. It's a never ending circle, ain't it.

I kinda disagree with daRock.
Never had any hinges pull out either, but I alway pin them, both nylon and ca hinges.
In your other statement, if installed correctly, they are bullet proof??? , complete nonsense, Nothing in this hobby is bullet proof!

Your third statement, about weakening the hinge area is a gray area, . The pin's, if installed correctlyare away from the hinge line, not right next to it. The failure in the hinge area itself is caused by applying to much ca glue, then it saturated the hinge area, then it becomes brittle, then it breaks.......The pin's will help, to prevent the other hinges from giving way, or braking if you did not saturate the other hinge's the same way.

I have seena few planes, lawn dart at our field, reason,......... ca hinge failure. I have no idea howthey were installed, but the one's I did see, the hinge pulled out completly of one section or another or both on different occasions,Wings ripped off,with the wood.With different pilots on different days.. When I saw this, and I am not an expert,by any means............. but when I use Ca hinges, I always pin them anyway.I just like to have, in my mind that hinge is not comming out period.
The ONLY hinges I do not pin are Robarts, CAUSE it's more difficult., If you use em, you get the drift..........
FLAPHappy is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 08:36 PM
  #5  
Gray Beard
My Feedback: (-1)
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hemderson, NV
Posts: 14,380
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?


ORIGINAL: FLAPHappy


ORIGINAL: da Rock

Never pinned hinges other than the one time some years back.

Never had any surface pull out. Never had any hinge pull out. Had a number of stab flutters and not one hinge failed even when there was damage back there. Those most certainly would be significant tests for hinges pulling out.

If you install any hinge into a tight slot with the appropriate amount and type of glue, nothing more is needed.

BTW, I've used nylon hinges for quite awhile, since they came out. Started using CA hinges when they showed up because they were so simple and quick. But they looked risky so I tested with a number of glues. If they're installed correctly they're bulletproof. The only ones I've ever experienced that failed were in a really cheap model and they looked cheap. I've yet to see any that looked cheap since.

If you don't do the pinning job correctly, there is a strong argument that you're actually weakening the hinge area. Of course, most ''craftsmen'' whose skills lead them to pin, would also be ones who are apt to pin improperly. It's a never ending circle, ain't it.


I kinda disagree with daRock.
Never had any hinges pull out either, but I alway pin them, both nylon and ca hinges.
In your other statement, if installed correctly, they are bullet proof??? , complete nonsense, Nothing in this hobby is bullet proof!

Your third statement, about weakening the hinge area is a gray area, . The pin's, if installed correctly are away from the hinge line, not right next to it. The failure in the hinge area itself is caused by applying to much ca glue, then it saturated the hinge area, then it becomes brittle, then it breaks.......The pin's will help, to prevent the other hinges from giving way, or braking if you did not saturate the other hinge's the same way.

I have seen a few planes, lawn dart at our field, reason,......... ca hinge failure. I have no idea how they were installed, but the one's I did see, the hinge pulled out completly of one section or another or both on different occasions,Wings ripped off, with the wood. With different pilots on different days.. When I saw this, and I am not an expert,by any means............. but when I use Ca hinges, I always pin them anyway .I just like to have, in my mind that hinge is not comming out period.
The ONLY hinges I do not pin are Robarts, CAUSE it's more difficult., If you use em, you get the drift..........
The DR1 is a bit thin in the hinge area but if you have the room then it's worth doing. I pin mine but when I was able to still get Pacer hinge glue it really was just an after thought. I did a lot of testing with the Pacer and pins werent needed. For people using epoxy today I would always use pins. I use a lot of the peg or hinge pins these days and use Gorilla glue so no way to pin them. Flat Dubro hinges I still pin. It's up to you, it's just a safty thing and not hard to do. I also disagree with darock. I never use CA hinges on my own planes either. Another choice thing, nothing wrong with them if done correctly.
Gray Beard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 10:01 PM
  #6  
jester_s1
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,738
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

With the nylon hinges I pin them because there is the worry of not getting the mechanical joint like you should. The thing is though that the glue in both hinge types is much stronger than the holding power of any pin, so unless the glue breaks loose the pin is completely unneeded.
jester_s1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 10:19 PM
  #7  
Gray Beard
My Feedback: (-1)
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hemderson, NV
Posts: 14,380
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?


ORIGINAL: jester_s1

With the nylon hinges I pin them because there is the worry of not getting the mechanical joint like you should. The thing is though that the glue in both hinge types is much stronger than the holding power of any pin, so unless the glue breaks loose the pin is completely unneeded.
And I have had epoxy come loose or I didn't get it in the slot as well as I thought, most likely my not getting it in there well enough. Anyway, the hinge was still in there piviting on the pin. It could have been when I tried thick CA on the hinges?? Been a long time but I'm sure it was my bad. Wish Pacer would start making there hinge glue again. The stuff called hinge glue at my LHS isn't very good. I have been having good results with the new Gorilla glue but I pin them when using that.
Gray Beard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 10:21 PM
  #8  
j.duncker
My Feedback: (2)
 
j.duncker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sailing in the Eastern Caribbean
Posts: 4,047
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

I always pin any strip material hinge.

My old club in the UK would not alow a model to fly with unpinned hinges.

I use 'furry' mylar hinges and always drill from the bottom through the hinge and wick in thin CA through the drilled hole. Then it is a matter of seconds to snip the point off a cocktail stick, add a lttle thick CA or epoxy and push it in. You quickly get the feel for the depth. Snip off the excess when set and you have insurance.
j.duncker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 10:46 PM
  #9  
rrragmanliam
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Arvada, CO
Posts: 1,228
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?


ORIGINAL: Oberst
But what a pain it is to remove the hinges if they are pined! [:@]
Pete
You don't build control surfaces for ease of disassembly, you build so they won't come apart in the air. Some builders dont pin hinges and some do. It doesn't take long and it's good insurance against a contol surface pulling out. It's your choice though.

rrragman
rrragmanliam is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2010, 09:03 AM
  #10  
MinnFlyer
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
 
MinnFlyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Willmar, MN
Posts: 28,519
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?


ORIGINAL: j.duncker

My old club in the UK would not alow a model to fly with unpinned hinges.
If a club ever told me that I would tell them that I would be happy to hold a seminar on installing hinges as none of them appear to know how to do it.

For the most part, I never pin a hinge, but of course, there's an exception to every rule. If I am uncomfortable with the way a hinge installation went, then I will use the added insurance of pinning them. This has happened two or three times in my 50 years of building.
MinnFlyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2010, 11:15 AM
  #11  
jaka
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Upplands Vasby, SWEDEN
Posts: 7,790
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

Hi!
Been flying R/C for 35 years! Never pinned any hinges on any model...be it pylon racers or scale
Why?? Done right you don't have too!
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Fc90518.jpg
Views:	12
Size:	57.6 KB
ID:	1472223   Click image for larger version

Name:	Zx72028.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	66.1 KB
ID:	1472224  
jaka is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2010, 12:11 PM
  #12  
airraptor
My Feedback: (66)
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: fairfield, CA
Posts: 4,191
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

I too have been flying for 35 years. I have pinned and i have not. If i build from scratch, build a kit or recover a plane i will pin the hinges. very simple and easy.

cover the trailing edge of wing, stab or horizontal.
cover the leading edge of Aileron, elevator, rudder.

slot the hinge area's
install hinge with correct glue
take a small drill bit I use 1/16th drill a hole thru trailing edge and hinge. ( make sure into the hinge itself)
put small dab of wood glue in hole
cut tooth pick in half
push into hinge hole
repeat for all hinges (or atleast do the outer edges and one in middle)
install control surfaces and do the same
the next day snip off the ends carefully use dremmel and sand flush
now cover the wing, stab, and the rudder.

if would like can go ahead and seal the surface too

All of this will only add about two hours to the build but you can rest easy knowing you will have a less chance of a surface coming off.


No matter if pinned or not one test i do is to rest the plane on the nose if not going to crush it. now pick up the plane by the ailerons, then the elevator and then by the rudder. if they dont pull out then strong engough.
airraptor is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2010, 06:16 PM
  #13  
rrragmanliam
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Arvada, CO
Posts: 1,228
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?


ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
If I am uncomfortable with the way a hinge installation went, then I will use the added insurance of pinning them. This has happened two or three times in my 50 years of building.
Your a better builder than I am, I've pinned way more than that!
rrragmanliam is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2010, 05:31 PM
  #14  
Oberst
Banned
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Lacona, NY
Posts: 1,840
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

I like to thank all of you for your insight. I was under the assumption that if it's glued well, pins aren't needed. Like I wrote, I haven't had the need to use them, and besides that, I check the control surfaces by hand every time I fly.

I guess it's a personal preference thing and not a proven fact that pining is a must for control surfaces.

I'm getting to the point of my building level if I build a kit or a ARF that means a lot to me, I plan ahead incase I need to re-cover and re-hinge. If it's ca hinges I use the debonder, safety razor and X-acto to get them out, and if they are nylon hinges I use heat, safety razor and X-acto.

To me the Great Planes Fokker is worth the effort, I drove 450 miles to pick it up and I've always wanted one for 7 years. And to this day I've been hounding Great Planes to bring it back.

To tell you the truth guy's, I don't think I ever drove 450 miles to pick up a woman!

There's a guy at my field who has a 17 year old Yak kit. He told me he's rebuilt the plane twice and if he hadn't told me I would have not known at all that it was a pile of toothpicks once.

To me I'm starting to see the art of rebuilding and the satisfaction it can give.


I thank everyone for their answer.


Pete

Oberst is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 06:46 PM
  #15  
tmenold
My Feedback: (17)
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sabetha, KS
Posts: 98
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

Thanks guys, this discussion has a lot of good info! I'm doing some hinge repair work right now! Good Luck to all!

Trent
tmenold is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 06:54 PM
  #16  
Stripes
Senior Member
My Feedback: (19)
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Orchard park, NY
Posts: 784
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

I haven't pinned any hinges since it occurred to me that the guys recommending it to me all wore a belt and suspenders.
Stripes is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2010, 08:30 PM
  #17  
da Rock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near Pfafftown NC
Posts: 11,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

Every chance you get, do an autopsy on any crashed model you can. And if you can, do some destructive testing of the hinging.

I've done that on every model of mine that bit the dirt to see how well I built 'em, since we built 'em with stone knives. Since ARFs took over, there isn't much of your building to test except the hinging. You will see if your technique is adequate or not. You will be amazed at how impossible it is to pull CA hinges done right. And you won't be able to tear 'em apart either.

As for the hard nylon hinges with metal hinge pins, if they have holes in the flats and you used enough glue, you'll not get them out or defeat 'em either. And that's with either epoxy or hinge glue.

But if anything makes you feel more secure about your models, especially pinning, then do it. We build for fun and pride, don't we?
da Rock is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 08:54 PM
  #18  
Gray Beard
My Feedback: (-1)
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hemderson, NV
Posts: 14,380
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

I found a bottle of Pacer in my shop last week!! As for pinning on this new plane, nope, I'm using hinge pins. When I have a choice I use the hinge pins these days anyway. Pretty much like the rock said, if done correctly!!!
Gray Beard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 11:22 PM
  #19  
HighPlains
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Over da rainbow, KS
Posts: 5,085
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

I don't pin plastic hinges (dubro flat metal pin hinges), but I use an Exacto knife to score the plastic about a dozen times with the score marks parallel to the metal hinge pin on both sides, top and bottom. Shoot a little epoxy into the hinge slot, smear a light film of epoxy on the hinge and shove them into the surface. Like someone else stated, I also examine all crashed airplanes, while I have had the hinges ripped in half, I've never had a hinge pull free or get loose. I've been hinging models since the 60's going back to cloth hinges.
HighPlains is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2010, 09:05 AM
  #20  
Villa
Senior Member
 
Villa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Wilson, NC,
Posts: 2,057
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

In this hobby, rather than ask your question "Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?", you should be asking "What else can I do to make the plane safer"?
Villa is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2010, 11:52 AM
  #21  
ro347
Senior Member
My Feedback: (13)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Nutley, NJ
Posts: 2,322
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

I plan on Pinning hinges on a Funtana that I am about to maiden being that there seem to be alot of issues on this plane when using CA hinges. I was planning on using T pins, and cutting the ends off. Would this be ok, or should I be using something thicker? Ive never had to do it before, so was just wondering.
ro347 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2010, 01:09 PM
  #22  
Gray Beard
My Feedback: (-1)
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hemderson, NV
Posts: 14,380
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?


ORIGINAL: ro347

I plan on Pinning hinges on a Funtana that I am about to maiden being that there seem to be alot of issues on this plane when using CA hinges. I was planning on using T pins, and cutting the ends off. Would this be ok, or should I be using something thicker? Ive never had to do it before, so was just wondering.
When I pin them I use tooth picks and medium CA, cut the pin/pick, sand and forget. CA hinges are very good but they must be installed correctly like anything else. There should be a center hole drilled into the hinge slot so the CA will wick the entire hinge and wood. If the slot isn't a tight fit the hinges won't have a good fit. You should get them glued in correctly the first time and not use any more glue over the glue you already used. As I mentioned, the only time I had a hinge problem was when I didn't get enough epoxy into the slots or I may have pushed the epoxy out of the slot when I installed the hinge. Depending on the thickness of the TE and control LE is when I decide if I will pin or not. Planes like the Balsa USA DR-1 have thin surfaces and flat hinges with Pacer hinge glue hold very well. Finding the Pacer today is a real treat and if I find any on a HS shelf i buy it up. Good stuff.
Gray Beard is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2010, 07:31 PM
  #23  
ro347
Senior Member
My Feedback: (13)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Nutley, NJ
Posts: 2,322
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

deleted
ro347 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2010, 10:37 AM
  #24  
GSNut
My Feedback: (8)
 
GSNut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Thornton, CO
Posts: 710
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?

For Peace of Mind !

Answer one simple question !

Why do it twice when once will do ?
Here's my method:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7976350/tm.htm


GSNut is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 08-27-2010, 02:43 PM
  #25  
Oberst
Banned
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Lacona, NY
Posts: 1,840
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it really necessary to pin nylon or CA hinges?


ORIGINAL: Stripes

I haven't pinned any hinges since it occurred to me that the guys recommending it to me all wore a belt and suspenders.

[sm=lol.gif]


Pete
Oberst is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service