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OS Max 60 FP Not Running

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Old 08-02-2010, 11:31 AM
  #1  
Redwulf__34
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Default OS Max 60 FP Not Running

I bought my first and last engine off E-Bay. A used OS 60 FP. When I received it the packaging was not good. The needle valve was broken off. I luckily found one for a reasonable price. The first time I ran the engine I found the glow plug was not tightened up and it shot out of the head. (Should not have made any assumptions I guess!) Anyway, I got the engine running and got a half a flight out of it and it shut off on me and I had to dead-stick. That was about a year or so ago. After frustration I put the airplane up for a while. Now I'm trying to get back up and flying but I can't get this engine to run.

I'm not a total dummy, my engines have always just run so I've never had to fiddle. She will fire up but I can't get it to run beyond idle. When I throttle up it shuts down. I have the correct glow plug in. She gets REALLY REALLY HOT on idle after less than a minute of running. It is spitting fuel out of the carburetor too. My assumption was too much air on the air-bleed? I closed it up to half the hole like your supposed to as a starting point. Now it seems like it's flooding on idle. It starts for a moment then shuts down. Acts like it's flooding. I'm at a loss for things to try. I'm about to toss it out but it's surely a decent engine and should run........ ????

I know it's not a great high end engine. I've just got it on my scratch build Ugly Stik. Any thoughts???

Sean
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Old 08-02-2010, 03:20 PM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Wonder if it was taken apart at one time & the sleeve not installed in the right place . If I remember right it should have a tiny pin in the case at the rear of the bore that a notch on the sleeve fits into. I have had these engines that had the pin drove into the case when the sleeve was turned & the head tightened down. Should have a gasket for the head also & the head bolts maybe loose. Check for loose bolts on the rear cover also. These engines are very simple & not much to go wrong . Check the piston & see if it has a build up of burnt oil on it & in the sleeve . It almost has to be something simple . Good l;uck, Max H.
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Old 08-02-2010, 04:17 PM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

It could this simple

what fuel are you using ?

A FP engine is a plain bearing engine, they run best on castor oil based fuel about 5%nitro

The other thing to try is cut a 1/4 inch of fuel tube and put it over the theaded part of the high speed needle, put the needle back on.

This will stop any air leaks.

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Old 08-02-2010, 04:27 PM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

This could help too

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Old 08-02-2010, 06:18 PM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

do the above and fluse out the spraybar may have congealed oil blocking the orifice after sitting.
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Old 08-02-2010, 08:10 PM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Thanks guys, all good stuff. Most I haven't tried yet. My fuel is 10% Premium. It should run with this fuel? Maybe not at it's optimum but it ought to run....?? Think I start with the spray bar, maybe it was even damaged when the needle was bent? The guy I bought it from said it ran fine. But after my experience with him I'm not sure anymore. He's built a good reputation on ebay since so I'll let it go from here.

Thanks I'll try this stuff and let you all know from here..

Sean
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Old 08-02-2010, 11:09 PM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

With regards to Fuel:

As per page 3 of the manual I uploaded 5% Nitro 20% Castor 75%Meth,

The overheating Issue could be the lack of oil in the Fuel check that there is 20% oil in the fuel at least some castor,
10% nitro will be fine.

Good Luck

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Old 08-03-2010, 12:36 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Thanks for noting that Johnkpap, I just checked and my fuel does have 20% Castor. The overheat come really quickly. I'm talking 20 seconds or less of idle and you can't touch it.

having trouble sleeping this evening. Going to check over the manual you uploaded! I've got a guy meeting me at the field wednesday evening. Maybe he'll be able to see something too?

Thanks to all! I'll keep you updated.

Sean
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:05 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

When you say the engine "overheats", do you mean that it tends to drop RPM when you try to lean it from a very-rich setting towards peak RPM? Or do you mean that it can be set to a peak RPM setting, but it then sags in RPM after a bit of running? Or do you mean that the engine gets very hot to the touch, enough to burn yourself?

If it's an early-series O.S. Max .60 FP, it will have the iron piston running in a steel liner. If you can, check the piston and liner with a magnet. If the magnet sticks, you have the iron/steel assembly. This assembly needed quite a bit of very-rich running in order for it to break in enough that you could lean it to peak RPM. If the engine's not had much running time, then it will easily overheat and quit.

If your engine has the iron/steel assembly, start it up at a very, very rich setting and just let it run at that setting at full throttle. Every five minutes or so, try leaning the high-speed needle a bit. If the engine won't accept the leaning (the RPM sags), just richen the needle and let it run there for some more time. Eventually, you should be able to lean the high-speed needle to whre the engine is running at peak RPM. With an 11 x 6 APC prop, it will be a bit over 11,000 RPM or so, maybe even higher. The engine should be able to run "all day" when leaned to just rich of peak RPM, allowing for a bit of leaning as the level of the fuel in the tank gets lower. We've had to run those engines for over an hour at a very rich setting before we could get them to lean to peak. However, once they've been properly broken-in, they will be very, very reliable for a long, long time.

The fact that the engine overheats easily tells me that it's too lean, has too little oil in the fuel, may have a good deal of varnish buildup, or just isn't broken-in.

A fuel with a high castor oil content is essential for this engine's well being.
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Old 08-03-2010, 10:52 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running


ORIGINAL: Bax

When you say the engine ''overheats'', do you mean that it tends to drop RPM when you try to lean it from a very-rich setting towards peak RPM? Or do you mean that it can be set to a peak RPM setting, but it then sags in RPM after a bit of running? Or do you mean that the engine gets very hot to the touch, enough to burn yourself?
I cant' even get it to full throttle. The engine is old enough to be beyond needing broken in. I'll check with the magnet like you suggest. But what it seems is it's too lean at idle. However, it's spitting fuel out of the carburetor. What I "think" is happening is the carb is pulling the fuel but then blowing a major portion out. Enough to cause the lean idle. By hot I mean after starting and running on idle for say 20 seconds she shuts off and would probably burn me if I touch it.

ORIGINAL: Bax
The fact that the engine overheats easily tells me that it's too lean, has too little oil in the fuel, may have a good deal of varnish buildup, or just isn't broken-in.

A fuel with a high castor oil content is essential for this engine's well being.
I'm running 10% Nitro and 20% Castor. This should be ok fuel for it. It's recommended in the manual.

Thanks for the input Bax. I'll check with the magnet to see what I have tonite.

Sean
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Old 08-03-2010, 03:17 PM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Redwulf, how are you starting this engine? If your flipping it or using a "chicken stick" then it might be starting & rotating in reverse. These engines will idle & take a little bit of throttle going in reverse, but will start spitting fuel out the carb when the throttle is advance more than about 20-25% Try using a starter to get it running & this will eliminate that as a posible problem. Next, if you are using a starter & your sure it is running in the proper direction, then as "Big Max" has suggested, it sounds like the sleeve has been installed incorrectly & the ports are such that it is allowing the exhaust presure to get to the crankcase area & while the intake port in the crank is opened, this can cause the fuel to spit out the carb. I have seen many guys not realize how the sleeve was orintated when disasembled, & then just install it so it looks right to them, just to discover that it now will not run right. As far as running "hot" any engine will get hot to the touch when running even at idle. The hottest area will be the head & upper section of the crankcase just below the head. Fingers will burn (hurt) with 180 plus temps, but thats what an engine will get to in a short time at idle due to the lake of a good air stream running over the head to cool it. This might also confirm that it is running backwards. (even less air running over the head in reverse) I have one of each "FP" engine that O.S. put out throught the years & a few more than one of some sizes. These are the easiest running engines I own. Some, I had to increase the hole size of the airbleed to get them to stop running rich at idle, but once set, they run forever. No bearings to rust. I'm sure you will get it figured out. Bill
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Old 08-03-2010, 07:48 PM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Thanks Bill,
She isn't running backwards for sure. I'm using an electric starter too. I can tell when one is running backwards pretty quick. Going to start tearing into it again this evening. Hopefully tomorrow nite she'll be running. My big problem right now is my shop is a mess. We just moved into this house and I've not set anything up yet. So it's hard to get in there and tear into it.

The nozzle is good. So my next thoughts are as you suggest, sleeve backward. This makes the most sense now that I've heard you say it again. this is my bet. Will let you know.

Thanks!
sean
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Old 08-03-2010, 09:31 PM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Here's the report.....all looks good. I've checked everything mentioned here and it's all good. I'm hoping it's just a bad adjustment on the air bleed. We'll see tomorrow night when I get some more seasoned eyes on it.

Now I did notice one thing that I had missed. The air bleed screw is bent. It's very slight and it's all the way at the head. So It shouldn't be causing any issues. When I had the engine off I closed the air bleed and the throttle and blew into the fuel intake. It was airtight. When I opened the throttle and/or the air bleed I got a little air through. Perhaps the carb was damaged in the shipping and I've got a carb issue??? I replaced the entire needle assembly. Including the nozzle.

I'll let ya'll know what happens tomorrow night. Praying for a running engine! I just wanna fly!!!!!!!!

Thanks to EVERYONE with you input.

Sean
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Old 08-04-2010, 12:16 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

I have two .60FPs. One is a sweetheart and the other is a bear. I have been fighting the bad one for over a year, but the problem with mine is that it has very little compression. It runs now, and turns up pretty good, but I have not bothered to put a tach on it because I know that even if it turns good RPMs on the bench, it will not fly well. I have had the head off this one and the sleeve out of it several times, and BigMax is correct about there being a locating pin in the block to fit into the sleeve, but mine is at about the 4 o'clock position if you look down at the engine from the propeller end. Also, the exhaust port is the highest port in the sleeve, so you can tell that way too. The pin in yours could conceiveably be pushed down into the block and the sleeve misaligned and that will cause running problems. I had a Super Tigre .60 that had that problem and once the sleeve was aligned, it ran well.

Are you dealing with a needle valve in the carb or a remote needle valve? They came both ways. I just bought both to try with my engine and am currently running it with the remote valve, but if I can ever find a good piston/sleeve assembly for it, I will change it to the needle valve in the carb. I believe that setup runs a tad better than the remote valve, but for on the bench I'm running the remote setup just to keep my fingers as far away from the prop as I can while I'm playing with this turkey. You indicate that you have other engines. How does the compression in the subject engine compare with other ABC/ABN engines of similar size? Since you said your engine has been hot, you may have taken the "pinch" out of the sleeve. My bad one has no noticeable pinch, thus the low compression. Mine also came from FeeBay, but I have bought numerous engines on that site and most of them have been good. The worst engine I ever bought used came from this site, so where you get them doesn't have as much to do with it as who you get them from.

If your air bleed screw is straight except for a small portion right at the head, I can't see where that could be a problem.

Keep us informed as to your progress. Because of the problem I have had with one, I am interested.
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:55 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Thanks Jolly,
I'm pretty certain this engine has never been apart. The sleeve looks correctly aligned. The exhaust port is in the correct place. Compression on it is pretty good. It's not as snappy as my old Supre Tigre but it's pretty good. I dont' think there is any problem there. Mine does have a bit of play around the prop shaft. It seems like a lot but I'm not used to these engines without bearings. I guess it's normal. I'm feeling pretty sure my issues are carb related. The engine was probably pretty good when the guy shipped it to me. When I received it the box it was in was way too big and he had one layer of bubble wrap around it. That was it. When it showed up at my door step what was left of the needle was sticking out the side of the box!

I am dealing with the needle valve. Not a remote assembly.

I'll let you know how it turns out tonite. What size prop are you running on yours? I started with an 11x7 but moved it up to a 12x6. I actually got a 1/2 flight out of it with the 12x6!

Sean
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:06 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Hi!
Have you checked that the pressure nipple on the silencer is open??
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:14 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Sean, I have a 12-6 on the problem one just for running on the bench. The good one is ready to go in a Super Aeromaster bipe that I am rebuilding and it will start with an 11-7 and go from there. Since you haven't had the head off, you probably haven't been able to ascertain whether or not you have an iron piston/liner in it, right? It would be interesting to know. I was not aware until Bax's post that they came both ways. Learn something every day.
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Old 08-04-2010, 11:36 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

I believe that the FP engine has an o-ring between the carb and engine case. If the o-ring is cracked or broken it will suck air under the carb and run too lean even with a rich carb setting. That could also cause the engine to overheat. While you are at it, you should also check the tightness of the head bolts and bolts that attach the backplate to the engine case. That could also cause it to suck air and run lean.
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Old 08-04-2010, 06:25 PM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

jaka, good thought there. I hadn't checked that but I did and it's open.

News from the flying field. The owner of our local hobby shop and club president met me there. No go on the engine. It won't run!! Thinking I might change the topic of this thread to OS Max for sale! Parts Engine!

I'm going to strip the whole engine down tonite and see what I find. I'll look for the sleeve most of all. The fuel system isnt my problem. It's pulling fuel just fine. It's just not sending it into the engine. All the fuel comes out the carb and crank. It's just not sending in. The only thing said so far is the sleeve is not aligned. So we'll find out soon!

Sean
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Old 08-05-2010, 07:18 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Hi Guys,
Now I'm willing to say I've been HAD! I pulled the engine apart last night. I had slop in the crank because the thrust washer is missing. Also missing is the head gasket/shim. The head has two huge scars in it as well as a small scar in the piston. This thing was never going to run right if even at all. The guy has sold a number of engines on e-bay since and he has had decent feedback. People probably give feedback based on visual looks of the engine when they receive it before they run them much. Well, no sense in complaining anymore about him. I dont' think I'll buy another engine on e-bay.

After finding all this last night I decided to trash the engine and just buy a muffler for my Super Tigre. I really would like to save that for my P51 I want to finish up and fly. I can probably get by with the piston here but the head is going to need to be replaced for sure. If I spend money on a head I'm not sure i have confidence this engine will run. The sleeve is worn but ok. Anyone got a used head laying around?

Pictures below, Opinions??? I think the combination of these three things could easily be causing my problem. Also, my alignment notch in the sleeve is closer to 3 than 4 oclock. I think you can see in the picture. Does this look to be right?

Sean
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:24 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Looks a lot like the idle bar came off in it's past and did the damage seen. I would request a refund.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:26 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

The head is not hurt that bad & will still work. Put a prop on the crank,take a heat gun or lpg torch & heat the case area around the fins ,hold it in your hand with a glove on or a large rag,drop a plug washer down the cylinder with the piston at the bottom of the stroke & catch the edge of it in the exhaust opening of the sleeve & turn the engine backwards & the sleeve will come out . To me it is installed wrong but you will be able to see where the pin is located ,just put the notch over it when you put it back together .
Don't give all eBay engines a bad name ,I have sold over a 1000 of them & NO bad feedbacks. Get the sleeve in right & it will run . Check the head again for the gasket , use a x-acto knife blade in one of the head bolt holes & pry up a little,they are hard to see sometimes .The thrust washer is there to keep the drive washer from gauling when you use a electric starter,you should get one.
Hang in there & will make a engine man of you yet ! Max H.
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:54 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

I've bought some very nice engines on Ebay over the years. I did get cheated on one though. The guy showed photos of a complete engine and claimed it ran like new. When the engine showed up the carb and muffler were missing and the engine was just a piece of junk. I didn't have Paypal back in those days so there was not much I could do about it.
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:13 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

Check the cylinder head again. O.S. uses soft aluminum shim stock for head gaskets. They look just like the aluminum used in the cylinder head's constuction. Use the tip of a #11 blade to carefully pry up the gasket. It's in the groove in the head that the liner fits into.
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:22 AM
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Default RE: OS Max 60 FP Not Running

I really don't mean to bash e-bay engine sellers. The guy I had trouble with has sold a lot of engines since and has had no bad feedback other than mine. He promised to split the cost of the needle assembly and never did. I would probably buy another one but I would be very careful at what and who I bought from. I looked back at what I paid for this one....I wish I hadn't done that! I would go back on it now but I bought it in 2008. When I ran into trouble getting it to run I shelved it for a while. I thought it was all due to me know having something set right. Too late now to go back now. But based on his attitude when I tried to work out the needle assembly I would be better off banging against a brick wall!!!

Thanks for all the help. I'll pull that cylinder tonite Max. I hope that's the issue. Whats the best way to clean the gunk off while I'm at it? I know the crock pot trick. I don't have an old crock pot so that's out right now.

Thanks again guys. I love this place!
Sean
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