Iceberg86300

As the title states, I need an engine, engine mounts, and a clutch.

The problem is I don't have the old stuff to measure. Are the .21 (or larger - I've seen some .28 engines from horizon) engines still relatively standard as far as case/mounting hole dimensions? I know the mounts aren't too critical as long as there's enough adjustment to get proper gear mesh.

Also, anyone have an instruction manual they could scan/point me towards? Or at the very least the engine requirements page(s)?

Any help here would be greatly appreciated.

tcharger

The mounting holes on the engine are standard(big block) where you may run into issues is finding mounts that line up with the holes in the chassis. I have countless engines, and a sizeable tub of mounts. Give me some measurements of the chassis mounting holes, centered front to back and centered side to side, and I can tell you if I personally have mounts, or tell you which mount you can buy that fits. I believe it came with a 14t clutch bell. A manual can be found on manualslib.

tcharger

Stock engine tt pro 21r I believe

Engine and mounting accessories

tcharger

Btw, I have that engine, mounts, clutch and bell available for sale.

Iceberg86300

Here's the dimensions for the motor mounting holes on the mirage. (Apologies for quality, knew software install and don't have the presets punched in yet.)

Looks like the TT EB4 s1/2 mounts are the same as well, but different part numberss. Does your motor have the pull start? That's something I need as well.

How much are you looking to get for the parts?

tcharger

The pro 21r engines I have all have pull starts. I would sell you the full setup, engine with mounts, flywheel, 3 shoe clutch and clutch bell all assembled together for $80 shipped

Iceberg86300

Sounds more than reasonable! What condition are the engines in? I know they can be rebuilt, but haven't seen any parts to actually do so. This would be a basher but I'd still like to get something that has decent life remaining.

Iceberg86300

Crap, forgot to ask, these are rear exhaust correct? I'm also in the market for a manifold & tuned pipe if you happen to have those laying around as well.

tcharger

It's in really good condition, if average lifespan was 10 it's no more than 4. They are rear exhaust, big block car/truck engines pretty much all are. As far as exhaust, I can throw in a basic setup(2-piece pipe and manifold with coupler and spring) for another $10.

Iceberg86300

Well sheet!!
I guess I should be asking about what you don't have!! Happen to have a radio box cover, fuel tank, and wing? Oh, and screws/washers for motor mount to chassis (I've found 3 in my parts box)? Also found the large poster sized assembly diagram for the mirage. Only documentation I have left.

Plus whatever else you may have? Apologies for nickle-n-dimeing on the parts requests, I had the chassis handy but just went through all of my part bins.

I see some new EB4 fuel tanks but they look to use a lower mounting position. If the hole pattern is the same I'd just need shorter standoffs. The EB4's look almost identical to the mirage, but I know they made a few upgrades just from looking at the parts. Question is whether the chassis & all the hole patterns line up. I suppose I could drill & countersink a couple holes though.

It doesn't look like it, but did TT ever offer a shaft start on their pro21r engines? I fell in love with E-Start on my Traxxas 4-tec so that's something I've been looking at. But your deal for what amounts to a drop-in solution seems pretty good. I might be able machine some flats on the pull start shaft though.

Don't know what you're running, but would you be interested in swapping a brand new, unpainted, still has the overspray film, mirage body for a beat up one? (I such at painting)

Ok, last request. Could you post a few pics of the items discussed so far?

tcharger

Associated/Thunder Tiger pro 21r engines


Pro 21r with dual start system


Tuned pipes


Fuel tanks


Engine mounts

tcharger

I was actually planning to bring up the shaft starting option, the 21r equipped associated mgt came with the dual start system for pull or shaft starting. I was going to ask which starter you preferred, pull, roto, or combo pull/shaft. I planned on keeping the aftermarket cooling heads, letting you choose the red(stock mgt) or purple(stock Schumacher Menace- this one is shaped like the original mirage cooling head)
wing shouldn't be a problem, but radio box cover I won't have. Although I have a few complete radio boxes and one might fit. Same with fuel tank, I'll have to get a look at the original to see which one of these will fit best on the chassis.

tcharger

Engines


Engines


Carburetors


Servos


Manifolds


Clutch bells
I've been hoarding for years. As I like to say, if I don't have it, good luck finding it.

tcharger

New parts


Hyper buggies


LST2, basher Sabertooth, ek4s2 unlimited, XTM XLB
my bodies tub is kinda buried, but I feel pretty good that I have something that will fit.

Iceberg86300

WOW!!!!!! 😮
You've got a regular "pick-a-part" for RC cars there!!
That associated with the combo start looks really clean. Head matters not to me. I suppose stock looking would be best, but even one from the bottom of the pile would be fine. It'll probably get some road rash anyway. I'm not building a show piece, I intend to beat on this thing. It ceased racing the first time my brother plowed it into a curb. But it's so much more durable than my Traxxas stuff. I just put it into a vise & bent the chassis back, same with the front dog bones. I look at the 4-tec funny and something breaks lol.



Here's what I have left of my Mirage. You can barely see the standoffs for the fuel tank. About 4 inches apart center to center. I can take other measurements as well.


Here's the body I have. I did most of the trimming but never got further than that. Small hole started in the windshield. So if you'd rather hoard a \"fresh" body it's up for trade. Otherwise I'll just hit it with a two tone from spray cans. I was never good at painting bodies.

I don't have any shaft start vehicles, would I be able to just buy the correct shaft & use a drill? Really don't want to spend $80 for a starter. Plus those are tougher to find with electrics killing off nitro.

Oh, and did associated use thunder tiger engines a lot? TT used to be huge in the nitro market, now they've all but disappeared. I see the motor mounts on their site but it scares me to death just thinking about ordering something from them. If you want a copy of that large poster with the exploded views I'm still working on stitching it together & cleaning it up. Should be a gem when I finish it.

tcharger

Associated mgt


Thunder tiger mta4
They were/are sister brands, as you can see the associated mgt and the thunder tiger mta4 are the same vehicle. The pro 21r and pro 28 engines come with either the (ae) or (tt) logo, the radios and servos are the same with the thunder tiger ones branded "ace" instead of associated. The only difference with the engines are the logos and the color of the heads(the thunder tiger mta4 came with a red head and the associated mgt came with a blue head(21) or black head(28)
A drill works fine, as long as it's modern and preferably lipo powered. An old 12 volt job won't spin fast enough. I make my shafts out of long L-shaped 6mm ball end hex keys($1.50 on ebay vs. $10 for a replacement starting shaft) and I just cut the ends off.

Iceberg86300

Wow those things are identical! Do you remember when they became sister brands? I used to race RC10's competitively when they were still using aluminum tub chassis. During that time Associated came out with the game changing RC10 GT, which basically started the 1/10th nitro trophy truck class. Shortly thereafter racing just became too expensive for me/my family, so I picked up the Mirage. At the time it was a competitive option since the track I ran at had a class with an engine rule which eliminated the need to spend a fortune on something like Nova's just to think about being competitive. I raced the Mirage here & there but I got it b/c it was a tank.

Damn air filter came off and it pulled 2 grains of sand in which destroyed the piston/sleeve & sized the motor. Otherwise I'd still be running it.

This sounds perfect. Exactly what I was planning to do. I'm a mechatronics engineer so I was also thinking of making a starting box/shaft drive combo out of a lipo, spare heli motor, esc, and some creative electronics & a spare heli main gear. That would give me 0-3k RPM out of the 0-30k RPM from the motor & ton of torque. But that's another project so I'll use the drill in the meantime.

So it looks like we're at a shaft/pull motor w/mirage mounts (or something that would work), whatever head you want to put on it(I really don't care so whichever one you want the least is fine), clutch & 14t bell, whatever you want to include for a manifold & pipe, & hopefully a gas tank (4" center to center with the holes on a slight angle towards the front center of the car when the tank is squared up in the car is the most important dimension & I can measure the offset of the holes to nail the dimensions down if needed, with the height of the holes not being a big deal as I can just make new standoffs), a wing, and finally, a body if you'd like to trade for my unpainted copy, for ~$90 plus what you want for the fuek tank/wing.

And take your time digging around, just keep chatting I really enjoy talking about this stuff. I've been running my old Traxxas nitro 4tec around but handling sucks & I've been trying to get the "pro" ball diffs adjusted to help it out but i just plowed it into a curb at ~40+ MPH. Bent the chassis slightly but destroyed the differential carrier which is NLA from Traxxas. I might just sell it after rebuilding it with the parts floating around the net. It's un-raceable even with all the hop-ups, the 2-speed sucks & just getting it to run in a straight line under power & braking has become too much of a hassle. Or maybe I'll turn it into a race project when I have access to a machine shop.

What are the diffs like on the "newer" nitro cars? The Mirage has a straight planetary setup but everything I see now is running cross pins and bevel gears. Are there any ramps on the case/pins for torque vectoring or are they just a different design that are still tuned completely with different weight oil/grease? I see fiorini torsen type diffs that need rebuilding constantly for $200 a pop & that just seems completely insane!

tcharger

Cen GST 7.7


Megatech dark thunder


Thunder Tiger EK4-S2


Megatech dark thunder


Cen fun factor Pajero


Cen fun factor Pajero
I enjoy talking rc shop as well, it's not like my old lady wants to hear about all the different nitro engines made by SH. And truth be told I also enjoy showing off some of my collection to someone who appreciates vintage(90s-00s) nitro RCs. I have been collecting for quite some time and I'm very proud of it. Here are some hard to find new in box vehicles:
The Cen GST is more modern, there might even be a few still hanging around in hobby shops. The Cen Mitsubishi Pajero is a bit older, I think early 2000s. The megatech dark thunder is easily in my top 5 favorites. The absolute best looking rtr top fuel dragster sold. Then we come to something quite rare nib, the EK4-S2 by our friends at Thunder Tiger. A very unique vehicle powered by the largest engine(.70/11.5cc) ever put in an rtr car/truck.
I've had a few 4tecs, and as much as I don't like them they sell like hotcakes. I've always got rs4s and nitro tc3s for sale, but the 4tecs come and go. I understand that Traxxas has superior local parts availability/brand recognition, and I too like tearing ass in a straight line, but when you actually want to turn laps the rs4 is better and the tc3 puts it to shame. Differentials are an aspect that I haven't explored beyond the superficial. I tune mine in the generally recommended range, but plan on doing some experimenting soon. I have been a "basher" since I was 10 and got my red arrow from radio shack, but have only been racing on a track for about a year. I have many hours thrashing savage/tmaxxes under my belt, but the dark art of turning fast laps is still new to me. I learned that you need to spend money on your servos, and I have a fair grasp of tire selection and shock tuning. Differentials will come in time. I can say that from what I've read the torsens do work well and I believe the losi "smart" diff is similar.

Iceberg86300

Wow you have a very fine collection indeed!! I was still a kid in the 90's and always thumbed through every tower Hobbies catalog & always gravitated towards the Ace Hobbies ads in RC Car Action, of which my parents were gracious enough to buy at the hobby shop or get me subscriptions when grades were good/whatever.

The three things I always pinne for were a (electrice) dragster, heli, and 1/8th scale buggy. Ended up getting the Mirage for Christmas after I stopped racing the RC10's. We were in Massachusetts for Christmas and I just couldn't wait. Got it put together & my dad helped me breaker in the motor on a bench in the non freezing basement. Very first run I flipped it & it was so cold the wing just shattered.

Expensive initial outlay, but far cheaper than the RC10's in the long run. Seemed like I was always breaking hop up parts like shock towers that, unfortunately, were required to be competitive in the spec motor class I ran in. That crap adds up quickly!!

Then my brother smashed the mirage & picked me up a pro .15 4tec in ~2001. It's definitely a fun car and it initially took a bunch of abuse but I think the composite parts have become brittle. Right now I'm looking for a new front diff carrier & shock tower. Unfortunately Traxxas came out with the far superior 4tec 2.0 (the shaft drive alone puts it in a new class) and nothing is interchangable with previous 4tecs, so they've stopped support for the 4tec entirely.

It's such a popular car b/c it runs so well and requires minimal tuning as long as an idiot didn't break in the engine. Only problem I've had was a plug wire coming loose but not completely so the Traxxas starter still saw the plug as "good."

They were also a very attractive option to go racing b/c they RTR & so cheap. Plus they marketed as race ready/competitive when they really weren't. So compared to everything else it was just too sloppy. Making a 1 degree change in camber or toe is kind of worthless when there's 1 degree of slop in the suspension. Plus it lacks a center diff which makes tuning under full power or braking extremely difficult. The tc3 and losi are real race cars that take the slop out but also introduce easily broken parts b/c they have to live on the edge to be competitive. They have to be a dream to tune with small changes actually producing results on the track. I need to make huge changes on the 4tec & they usually overcorrect the problem. So, logically, I the try a middle of the road change only to return to the same exact problem I started with. Extremely frustrating!!

I think they're still popular b/c they're the only 1/10 nitro touring cars that can actually take a little abuse, and they're cheap. Electrics are taking over the backyard/Street basher markets so I can still find most parts locally b/c nobody else is running them. I also have a couple hobby shops within ~15 miles so I'm very lucky in that regard.

But needing parts/wrenching is one of the reasons I want to get the Mirage going. Everything is just so beefy on an 1/8 scale off road car. Only "part" I ever needed was a vise to bend the chassis back and straighten the dog bones. So I figure investing in a new (used) motor and other incidentals is a good call. Especially when I can get all the stuff from you, hopefully. I tend to keep my hobby stuff so I don't know what possessed me to toss the parts that I did but still keep the car. Might have been the result of my parents moving while I was in college or possibly a clean out. But the reason doesn't matter b/c I need the parts regardless.

tcharger

I don't remember being such a parts hoarder when I was younger, but I certainly have been for quite some time. I buy and sell a lot of vehicles, when I buy I want all the spare parts, and when I sell I don't give away any spares unless it's part of the deal. I have only recently started trying to mark/sort parts to keep track of the vehicle they came from. for example, let's say I come across a beat trx 3.3 from a revo(not worth saving) I used to take everything apart, put the clutch bell it a tub with others, clutch shoes with shoes, springs with springs, etc. Now I keep the collet, flywheel, shoes, springs and bell together in a little ziploc labeled revo 3.3.

Iceberg86300

That's a good way to save spares for people, especially if the model is discontinued. Practically nobody runs 1/10 scale touring in my area, racing or otherwise, let alone a nitro 4-tec. Now that I've found another local shop that has the "rare" parts I'll probably continue running it in addition to getting the Mirage going. But when those parts sources dry up those parts are gone. Same situation for the mirage: If someone else had a mirage with all the parts I needed but then broke a part that's impossible to find or even just blew a motor & didn't want to fix it, those parts would likely hit the trash bin instead of for sale forums or eBay b/c there are very few people like me scouring the net for parts. So I'm very glad you're a hoarder!!!

I'm a hoarder as well, I just don't have the volume you do & for the most part all I end up hoarding is either literally junk or pretty close to it. I have ~4 sets of shocks, all with bent shafts and unknown seal integrity b/c it was cheaper to buy a new preassembled set. Just recently I tossed out a bunch of ~25 year old RC10 graphite shock towers. Being a tinkerer & engineer I figured I could appropriate them for a different project. Sad thing is that I just realized I could have made some braces for my nitro-4tec from those broken shock towers. Experiences such as that just reinforce the hoarding mindset. I also save electronic parts as my engineering specialty is mechatronics & you never know when those parts might come in handy. Usually large inductors, capacitors, & then any though hole components that may come in handy or just in case you can't find a part locally. Lots of LED's, voltage regulators, power MOSFET's, connectors/cables, etc. I really need to start desoldering and organizing these parts as they come in, much like you're now doing with your parts.

I've found adjustable organizers are perfect for this job, and I'm working on organizing the stuff now.


Misc tools & electronicals in need of organization.


Basic electronics components as well as my microcontrollers & test gear accessories in need of sorting & organizing.


Completed \"soldering & battery" box. Soldering stuff like every tip available for my iron, various solder types, fluxes, wick, specialty tools & other stuff to go with my "third hand," plus a good selection of wire, battery bars, battery termination, battery charger leads & balance connectors, AA & AAA NiMh batteries for use in whatever, and battery/servo mounting solutions that aren't mechanical. Also a couple of brushless ESC's, motors, data logger that will all be finding a new home shortly.


My 4-tec box which is basically hardware, adjustment & rebuild parts for shocks, differential and gearing options, everything required to upgrade my Pro.15 to a TRX2.5/3.3, plus a few tools. Actually, any rear exhaust engine would work but the Traxxas upgrade program is pretty good for getting a new engine on the cheap (need to check if that's still true). Although I'd love to grab a used Picco or Novarossi race engine to see that 4-tec scream!!!


Parts & tools for my trex heli. Blades, tail booms, torque tubes & other long or oversized parts that won't fit in a small compartment live in one of the original heli boxes.

I've also started putting masking tape on the lid for each compartment so I can label everything. This has relieved most of the frustration I've had with these hobbies. Don't know why it took me this long to start with this type of organization b/c I'm crazy OCD when it comes to finding stuff. Once I start looking for something it is ON & I will tear the house apart until I find it and it is extremely difficult to make myself give up on a search.

You should check out these organizers. They come in all kinds of different sizes & compartment configurations which would be perfect for everything smaller than bulkier parts like pipes & tanks which would take up an entire compartment. It would be be nice to use them for the bulkier parts but the space gets expensive.

Any luck finding a tank that might work in the Mirage?

tcharger

I pulled a pic of a mirage online(pic with blue aluminum) and this is what I have which looks promising. The mounting holes are approx. 3 3/4" apart, the cutout for the center diff is in the right place, it looks really similar. I've got a pair of standoffs that go with it as well. It's clean and seals properly.

tcharger

I don't know what state you're in, but do they have dollar tree? I'm sure they've got some kind of dollar store. I get a lot of containers there, and I love the little single use crazy glues, 4 or 5 to a pack for a dollar. No worries about dried up nozzles

Iceberg86300

I'm in southern California and around here the dollar stores are plentiful. I got burned at one through my own stupid though, so I haven't been back. My calipers and micrometers were eating coin cell batteries so I tried the dollar store ones. One of them puked and destroyed the electronic board in my $175 mitutoyo micrometer. My fault for being cheap. I'll need to go back for storage & glue. I've washed way too much money and product when it comes to super glue. No matter how well you store the stuff if always turns into a rock. Same with the resin portion of epoxy but that happens w/o ever opening the stuff.

Iceberg86300

That tank may work. The original was 4" hole to hole, but I don't have a problem drilling new holes or cobbling together standoffs to push it where I want it.

It may also go a bit too far to the centerline by the looks of it, but again, I can drill a couple holes or cobble something. Kinda par for course when trying to get a ~20 y/o buggy up and running.

I just took a bunch of measurements and I'm trying to put them into a 3d model to layout exactly what will for w/o issue.

On that front could you measure the 14t clutch Bell? And do you know the pitch/mod of the gear by any chance? That will give me a more accurate model & looks important to get correct to make sure the tank fits.

Thanks again for working with me on this!

Steve

Edit: let me know if you need any photos. My car is complete chassis wise except for engine, exhaust, and tank.