El Pirata

Ok KID, I'm at peace with my age and my knowledge of the workings of the world. Maybe you should try to do the same.

SKYLINE350GT

El Pirata- you really arent though. You have NO IDEA how the Business World works. So NO you dont have any knowledge and can not be at peace with a world you know nothing about!

El Pirata

35 years old. Been in the Army for 16 years. I've lived in 5 different countries throughout my life. Been to combat multiple times killed the enemy and watched friends get killed or wounded. So listen, when you've lived in at more than one country and done a few of those things then you can say I don't know jack about the world. Until then, bugger up. Oh and you're welcome for the freedom of speech you enjoy but didn't pay for.

SKYLINE350GT

I have lived in 2 different countries- But have visited for months at a time 22 countries around the world. Haven't been to war or served my country. But, I thank you for doing so. As for the Business World- you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it!

El Pirata

As far as business goes, would this have anyhting to do with the 50 million dollars in equipment I am singlehandedly responsible for? The 40 people employed to operate and maintian the equipment? The manufacturer of the same equipment that I visit no less than every 6 months to discuss the improvements of the equipment. I suppose none of these have anything to do with the business world?

scale only 4 me

My Feedback: (158)

you two should just bustem out and see whos bigger

SKYLINE350GT

If you are soo involved in a company and have such responsibilities- than you obviously must know something about innovation- real world testing and R&D- Yes this all spans back to that! You say you are a Manager of some equipment- if so- In Business School did they not teach you about R&D? Yes- It costs MILLLLLLLIONS of dollars to Come up with a 3.5 cc Nitro 2 stroke engine.

I mean if you want to have a pissing contest we can go! Feelin Froggy?

El Pirata

In the Army they don't teach gentle things like that, they teach you to KATN! You want to maintain your point of view and I want to maintain mine. Sitting here for a week arguing is not going to change mine as yours will probably not be changed either.

breakin2

My Feedback: (1)

Well, it's obvious by the posting frequency that many of us aren't all that productive in our respective fields of employment.

SKYLINE350GT

My point of view doesn't need to change. I am right. It's simple. It costs millions of dollars in Research and Development to come up with a new 2 stroke motor line. Simple!

MAXXacceleration

Some of the adults are worse than the kids!
An opinion is just that.
I'm jumping back to RCZ.

SKYLINE350GT

Except this isn't an opinion. I'm not talking about how a pear tastes better than dog crap. Some people might like the taste of dog crap. But I PREFER the pear. That's an opinion.

What I'm saying is fact.

ZoomX

Hi guys, as much as I "enjoyed" reading the bashing posts Why don,t you guys just leave this behind and move on. There is no right or wrong answer here and we have all heard your different views. It doesn't matter whats the cost of R&D to the end consumers. It can be real high for some (like lets say CMB when they first come out with the dual tapered piston) and real low for others. What matter is the price we are paying for it.

Take it easy!

SKYLINE350GT

But there IS a wrong answer here. This isn't an opinion- it's fact. Opinions don't have right or wrong answers, but facts do!

nurch

In my oppinion, 1 + 1 = 250. LOL!

I'm sorry, just trying to dissipate the heat from the flames here. I do agree with Skyline here. I took an intro to business class at University of Maryland, and did learn that R&D (depending on the size of the company, product they are researching, and innovations they wish to incorporate upon their existing line) can range anywhere from the hundred thousands to the millions. Technology is the most expensive industry to do R&D for. I have to give it to Skyline GT on this one.

As for El Pirata, living his life, I think he knows what life is about. Seeing someone die before our eyes is something very rare to most of us non-military folks. I am also very sure that El Pirata's involvement with such machinary and managing of staff also shows he knows how business is run.

My oppinion: You guys are both right. Let's get back to how OFNA likes to scam people!

oldchopdoc

I'm backing skyline too on this one.

I work for a major lamp manufacturer. Our last automotive head lamp cost over 20 million in R&D alone.

You have to count in all, or sometimes only a portion of the operating expenses for nearly everything that R&D teams use. Think about CNC machine purchase costs, tooling, programming, raw materials, consumables, wages and salaries, electricity, gas, maintenance, parts for machines, building cost, property, building and property maintenance, insurance, security, security teams, engineers, designers, laborers, mechanics, electricians, water, toilet paper, hand towels, cleaning supplies, cleaning teams, pallets, forktrucks, transport vehicles, drivers, phone bills, office staff, office supplies, computers, peripherals, software, advertising, packaging, marketing, testing, patents, legal staff, legal fees......AND THE LIST GOES ON and on and on! It adds up in a hurry!

while many of these don't fall completely under R&D, they fall at least in part under that heading. If you're not into the actually manufacturing process, but simply order the end product so you can sell it...You'll never see all of these costs. You will pay them, however, over time. Ever asked yourself why somethings so expensive when it's actually cheap to make? When you've got 20 million invested in a product you'll also see the need for patents. Do you really think it costs $300 to $500 to build one of these little engines? It doesn't! You're paying the costs of R&D. Why do you think the price of things is so high when a new item is first released. Partly supply and demand, mostly R&D!

Don't have time to spell check, gotta go!

oldchopdoc

El Pirata,

You're not alone. I'm retired Army. 22 years in aviation on helicopters. 8 years in 160th Aviation Battalion. Special Operations for those who aren't military. Been there and done that. Have to take Valium every night to stop the nightmares.

Freedom has it's price!

Can't thank you enough for serving! If you ever need anything at all PM me!

fhm101

OK folks, time to stir the pot regards the cost of R&D. The cost to bring a totally new product from concept to market is high, no argument from me there, but to modify an existing design in this age of cad/cam and rapid prototyping has gone to almost nothing when compared to a ground up development. Design software has become so sophisticated engineers can do all their testing in virtual mode before the first chip is cut. Different industries will of course have different requirements, but in the case of cast and machined products you can go from concept to first piece in a matter of weeks if you have the right software. Creating say an electronic fuel injection system for our toy car engines may cost a ton, but up sizing an existing engine would be quick and easy compared to what it would have taken 20 years ago. All you have to do is look at how quickly we went from a benchmark of the .21 to the .26 and now up to a .28 all on the same block. All it really took was some number crunching in virtual and a few quick CNC programs to make this happen. The same would be true if you were going from say a 3 port sleeve to a 7 or 11 port sleeve. A good flow dynamics program to show you where and how to cut, and a quick CNC program to make it real.
We live in an age where things like one off custom car wheels can now be punched out by Fred down at the local machine shop on his CNC. They will cost you a bit more than buying a mass produced set, but even as early as 10 years ago just finding someone to take the job would have been a chore and the cost would have been 10 to 20 times what it would be today.

oldchopdoc

In an attempt to get this back on track. I prefer to get what I payed for and exactly what I payed for. A 10 cent sticker on the box would be all that's needed and a ten minute change to their web site. I have to ask why after more than a year hasn't OFNA made some sort of attempt to let customers know what they are really getting. If I agree to buy white shoes, I don't expect to open the box and find black ones. I could care less what Ofna's reasoning is behind why they changed it was. I don't like being lied to. I gave them money that was exactly what they expected it to be, but in return got something that wasn't what I expected.

By the way...for the engineers in the crowd. The color black has been used on heads of air cooled engines for years. Not because it cools better than any other color, but because it is the cheapest color to produce. If a company has a 1500 gallon batch of paint that's off color do you think they throw it away? They wouldn't stay in business long! They mix tints with it to make a color that will be on spec. Normally black! Painting isn't used because it helps transfer heat out of the metal. It's used to protect the metal from corrosion. Porous surfaces, such as flat paint, transfer heat to the air around it better than smooth surfaces. Flat black protects, transfers heat relatively well, is cheap to buy and cheap to apply. Bare metal with a rough surface is the best for transferring heat to the air around it. Look at all of your wildest engines out there. The surface of the head on almost all of them has been glass bead blasted to aid transfer of heat. Then anodized to protect it with a minimum of interruption of the heat transfer. You don't see anyone running painted heads from factory racing teams. If it did give them an edge on the competition you know they'd paint it in a heartbeat! Glass beading the lower crankcase would only serve to weaken it and that's why the top engines use flat black on the crankcase rather than roughing the surface of the metal. Anodizing, through electrolysis, brings naturally occurring trace elements that are in the aluminum to the surface where they harden and form a protective barrier against corrosion. The metal is then dyed to what ever color you want. As for the plastic cap on top of the head...ever heard of an insulator? That's exactly what it does. It blocks the air from getting to the top of the head. Ideally it would be made of aluminum with a rearward facing scoop to draw more air through the heads cooling fins.

You can't believe everything you read. Especially when the source is the company that is trying to find ways to save money and still sell you their products. Glass beading, anodizing, dyeing, and laser etching isn't a cheap process. Flat black spray paint and a plastic cap are loads cheaper. I'm not saying anyone here is gullible. I'm just saying do your research, or go to college and take metallurgy like some of us did!

If you believe the story about it cools better, you've been duped!

oldchopdoc

FHM101,

The wheel was invented in the stone age. Why do Goodyear and Firestone spend hundreds of millions each year on R&D if it costs almost nothing because they are only improving a design that already exists? There's not really much that can go wrong with a billet wheel. One Non-moving part. Yes it's connected to a moving part, but the wheel itself isn't classed as a moving part. On the other hand, there's a lot that can go wrong with a nitro engine turning well over 30,000 RPM!

oldchopdoc

FHM101,

Sorry, you did bring up some valid points. Some things can be made without much expense. It's the cutting edge technology that costs. If a shop is already set up for producing engines I'm sure the cost wouldn't be in the millions, but I still doubt it would be cheap to come up with a true, top notch, race winner of an engine. Not saying the Ofna is in that category! Sorry if that offends Ofna owners, and I could be wrong since I've never ran an 8 port before.

Da Smak

Cor if you tried a little harder at school then you could've been in the Air force. LMAO. In a way even the lowest ranked person on my Squadron is responsible for over $100M of equipment and 1000s of lives everyday. One oversight, and it's godnight Vienna. I think your pising into the wind on this arguement.

I don't claim to know ALL about buisness (my limits are an Eboy store), but I do know there is not even enough webspace on the forum to accomodate all the details. So is there any chance that one day a thread I start will stay on subject?

scale only 4 me

My Feedback: (158)

Not likely
and BTW you didn't start this thread

the real question Is there any chance that one day ANY thread will stay on subject?

oldchopdoc

LOL

SKYLINE350GT

And remember- always treat your countries flags with respect!

Right Sean Kelly?