RURC

OK I have been answering questions in other threads and trying to help people understand what is going on in and around the world of Nitro Conversions. I will be posting cars I am working on with build sheets and information on how you can do this. If you frequent the electric forum you will have seen me there. All I do is brusless and lithium polymer batteries. I know this stuff very well. Am I perfect? Hell no. But I will give you the best I can possibly do. I test for mose of the major manufacturers and even do prototype building for them of complete cars of the future. I will let you guts start this out with your questions.

Please this is not going to be a electric is better than nitro or any type of bashing the other. We are here because we all enjoy this sport. So it will be kept friendly and above board. I want to hear form all.

Here is a photo of my Schumacher Havok I converted just to get things going:

j_blaze

RURC, this will be a good thread for those who have been curious and are really curious like me. Heres a video I found today of exactly what I plan to do in a bit, once I understand this more, thanks.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

happywing

A lot of great info for converting 1/8 buggies. Also some pre-fabbed kits for easy conversions. RC Tech>1/8 buggy conversion kits:
http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=158327

RURC

Well the latest question I got from someone is what is a good buggy to do this with? Well I have yet to find a buggy that this conversion could not be done to and it work well and I also have really found none any harder than another. But the best thing I can say is make sure that the buggy you use is one you like because chances it will be wit you for a while. On the first one I did I just looked for a cheap used roller and I found one on ebay. I wanted to do this because my Keyosho was too expensive to just start playing with on this scale. I used a Ofna 7.5 roller I got for like $50. I liked this because parts are plentiful and cheap.

MT

Nice work, and thanks for the info.
I put a Mamba Max setup in a cheap HPI Pro2 or 3, I got off ebay. It has a 2s lipo and scoots pretty well. I wanted to put the setup in one of those Losi or Kyosho 1/10 buggies for some winter indoor dirt racing

RURC

Also the Ofna is a fairly decent platform to work from. The Force .21 engine that came with the car was a relieable, cheap engine that gave the nitro car a above average performance. So I suggest if this is your first car you are converting look into converting one of them unless you have one that you want to do this to.

Choseing your electronics is another story. Buy the best you can do, dont skimp on this. This will also allow you, if you decide to convert your top line car you already have a top line electronic system ready to go. Right now you hear about the Mamba Max esc from Castle Creations. It is the best deal on the market. The adjustability and performance in one package can't be beat. The highest performance esc on the market is the Schulze. They are not reasonable in price and are difficult to program but they are built like a brick. Either of these will be great esc's to use. I use the Mamba Max unless I have a client that is just no holds barred and wants the Schulze. Most of my personal cars are useing the Mamba Max. I do have almost every other one out because of the testing I do for manufacturers. Performance rateings on the esc's have 2 really important ones, the internal resistance and the current handeling. Both the MM and Schulze are the lowest resistance out and the MM is 100 amp continous and the Schulze is 97 amps. The strange rateing for the Schulze is typical for German made and engineered products, so I would look at them as being equal in current handeling. The truth is that you will never see 100 amps continous for more than 10 seconds in 1/8 scale. BUT YOU WILL SEE MOMENTS GREATER THAN 200 UNDER BRAKEING IN 1/8. This handleable but is stressful to everything. I generally build with a servo brake, but some people have to have reverse. If you need that be ready for the large current draws under brakeing.

Next I will look at chassis lay out.

j_blaze

e maxx motor mount will fit a hyper 7?

happywing

The problem with an EMaxx mount is that you can't mount it to the chassis.

I'm building another MBX5. I'll post a few pics as I go. The first is the motor mount:



I'm using a Kyosho center diff in order to use a plastic spur. There is no plastic spur to fit the Mugen CD, or I would use it. It's not a big deal though because the Kyosho diff fits perfectly on the MBX5 chassis:



The motor mount is bolted to the chassis and the center diff mount.

RURC

One thing I always do is use the factory holes only. I will not drill the aluminum chassis at all. This complicates the installation plus I dont have a anodizing facility in house. Drilling new holes to me is just a sign of using something that is not right. I even go so far as to order the factory fasteners so I can make it look as close to factory as possible and if you need parts you know where to go. My clients seem to like that best.

RURC

Here is the buggy I will be building for this build. Please be patient with me as I have 11 other cars I am building and those are for paying clients and they get preferential treatment because they pay for all my toys, uuuMMmm experiments, yea I like that. Experiments! So this is not going to be a weekend build this may take a few weeks to get through.

The host buggy is a Schumacher Swift Pro. Also known as a RD Logics SHO Pro and Nadia Pro. This is a completely new chassis that has never had a thing mounted to it. It came just as you see it. The blue tape is holding the screws in that are for the engine mount.



For comparison here is a photo of the car fully built with nitro motor in it. You can tell the image is of the Schumacher factory car because of the purple aluminum. Side Bar: I will have to ask Robin Schumacher tomorrow about all the purple on their cars when I see him.



Anyhow I think this will be a great car to work with. I am going to make this as easy as possable. I will use ready made parts as often as possible for this build. I am going to try and CNC nothing, yea I know fat chance. But I do have full CNC facilities in the shop so if needed i will do it. But I will try and resist the urge.

ELECTRONICS:
I am going to use a Castle Creations Mamba Max ESC for this car. This controller is the best deal on the planet right now.

The motor is going to be a Neu Motor. I think I will go toward the 1509 series for this one. I want to try to work this on a budget. Holly crap did I say budget? Please dont tell me wife I said that. who am I kidding she will not believe you on that.

The servos will be from a private label company. They come with the company name on them but I know who makes them (sorry I cant say NDA) but they are very good. I have used them for years. He imports them direct from Taiwan in large quantity. The steering servo will be 180 in oz and the brakeing servo will be 160 in oz unless the specs have changed. If so I will correct this. Yes I will make it with a braking servo not an electric brake with reverse.

The receiver will be from a company that plane guys will know, GWS. Yes they make rather inexpensive products. Some say cheap. But I really like their receivers. I have them in many cars and they work great. And they are so small. They are less than 1/2 in x 1 in x 1/2 in for a 4 channel FM receiver. And they are very reasonably priced, $22.00. Yes that is 4 channel and I use at least 3 channels and the 4th I use for the external BEC.

The BEC is a 4 amp version that gives a clean 6 volt out put from the 2 cell 2200 mAh lipo pack that will be just for the electronics.

The batteries will be the 10,000mAh Goliath packs I use and love. These packs will run 200 amps sustained and will provide all the needed punch I will ever need. Plus about an hour of run time. I am going to design for 4 cell and then be able to fine tune with a 3 cell or a 5 cell when it comes time to play.

The radio will be my trusted Multiplex Profi Car 707. This is by far the best FM surface radio on the market. I know you guys are saying my Futaba or my Airtronics, or my HiTec. Sit down because this thing kills them trust me I have had them all. A 7 channel surface radio that is fully PC programmable with lap timer and abs and asr, and more. This thing rocks and it looks like a phaser from Star Trek. Yes it looks goofy but the insides are just amazing. Besides I am trying to be budget minded. If I was not I would just use my Nomadio React. But the receivers are $90. That blows my budget. So we go with the Multiplex 707.

All connectors will be 6mm Schulze. Even to the battery. These are the only connectors that will handle 200 amps continuous. They also easily fit with the 12 gauge wire that will be used throughout.

So sit back and watch as this thing comes to life. As the build progresses I will give links to the parts I am useing and tell you why I am use them again.

Nick_P

The MM controler has a problem with the nues, its software doesnt like them and 90% of the time will cuase cogging. The Quark 125 would be a better option as its cheaper then the shultz.

Curious why you would pick the 1509 series, its a smaller motor, is not as efficent as the 1515 nor does it handle the voltage a 1515 will. 1509 motors are also a higher Kv, with the lowest one a 1509 2/y at 1820 Kv. This coupled with the Cogging of the MM nue could cuase gearing problems.

The 10k mah lipos you talk about are HUGE, weigh in alot more then normal 6k mah pack and are HUGE. I dont see any benifit what so ever runnin this pack. What good is 1 hour run time if the car is over weight and handles like a pig.

2200mah Receiver pack?? Again why such a huge battery? Theres another 200 or so grams your adding that doesnt need to be, not to mention the addition of a voltage regulator you will need. Whats wrong with a simple UBEC? They work well and dont need to be charged.

Correct me if im wrong, but last time I used a GWS receiver it came in 72 MHZ only. Surface equipment is 75MHZ do they work together and if so how? I also always had range problems and glitching when useing the cheap GWS, so I wont use them i any thing now.

Id like to see you do a HV project, 8-10s low KV to keep amp draw down, able to run 3k mah lipo and still get 30 minutes. Temps should stay low and not be a heavy pig.

happywing

What's the big deal with extra holes? It's not very complicated and I don't have an anodizing facility either (For What???). I use a hand drill. They are readily available.

RURC, is this YOUR thread...to advertise your services? Seems you're not too interested in other projects. To me, conversions are all about individual ingenuity. There is a local guy here that I know well. He builds great conversion kits and sells them worldwide. For $125.00, he has a kit for the 8ight that will allow you to do the conversion in one evening. To me, that's no fun, but I can understand that some people don't want to do it themselves. At least with his kit, they have a hand in the conversion. Go to the "forum" page of his site to see more info: [link]http://www.rcproductdesigns.com/[/link]

Nick P. brings up a lot of good points. The 1515 or 1512 series of Neu motors are better suited. A UBEC will reduce weight and 10k LiPo is added weight that is not needed. My 8k LiPo last 30 minutes under race conditions, but I usually use my 6k's unless the A-Main is a long one.

Nick, I do disagree about the MM/Neu combo. The MM can be set up to run the Neu just fine. Yes, there is a slight hesitation from a dead stop, but it is not an issue at very low speeds and not noticeable during racing. We have several guys running the MM/Neu setup around here.

RURC

Nick P-
I have not noticed any issues with the MM and Neu Motors. As a matter of fact in every case I have used them they perform smoother than other motors. I know that you are refeering to the fact that the Nue motors are multi-pole motors. But in about 20 cars I have not ever experanced anything but the best working system possable. on the other hand the Quark has proven to me to be faulty in the applications I have used it in. I have a 80 and 125 amp unit and they gererally are not smooth for me. I find the Quark to be an inferior product to the MM. The Schulze is so far superior to the Quark that to mention them in the same sentance is almost rude (not really). But I do find the Schulze to be better than the Quark.

I gave my reason for the 1509.You assertions of the cogging issues, in over 20 cars I have done, when combined with the Mamba Max has been proven incorrect. The voltage handleing is not an issue in this case. The voltage thing you speak of is only a limitation of the rated rpm of the motor of 60,000. So with the math of a 4 cell lipo here we go 14.8v/60,000=4054 rpm/v. Since I will not be useing motors that are going to exceed the 4054 rpm/v line then the 'voltage' limitations you mention will not be an issue. Now that said the Neu motors will go well beyond the rated 60,000 rpm. I have them approaching 100,000 rpm in my high speed car. Also all 15xx series motors are rated to 3000 watts to the out put power is sufficient for this car. So, in either event this is not going to be a problem as I see it.

If you know of the batteriies I speak of can you provide a link to them. I have many of them in various sized packs from 2 to 6 cell lipo. The size per cell is 55mmx155mmx10mm a standard car cell is 44mmx137mmx6mm. The size differance is not that great. I have them in other cars and the 'pig' characteristic you infeer is just not there. I use them in my on road race car and there is no problem. I have them in my high speed car and if they were so heavy then I would not have had such a hard time keeping that car on the ground over 100 mph. The hour plus run time is one of the best parts of it. And if the car is balanced outwhat is the problem?

You are wrong on the GWS thing. I have then in 35 MHZ, 40 MHZ, 72 MHZ and 75MHZ. Not all surface is 75MHZ. Since I am running this within 300 feet (line of sight distance at all of the tracks I frequent) and they are rated at 1000 feet there should not be a problem. And again I do this now with no issues. If you do not like them then that is ok, but I have not had issues (MM and Neu issues also) then by all means dont do it. I am not doing this for you. In the end I will be giving this car to my 7 year old son. He has kind of earned the upgrade to a better 1/8 BL car. His old one has 3 years on it and the chassis is tired. I did not state in the post that I was useing a 75 MHZ, sorry for the omission.

I am working on a "HV" one now. The problem is that I needed a car controller that could handle 8 or more cells. Not a plane controller I want a real car controller. I did an FG 1/5 with a 300 amp Schulze (sorry you dont like them) but that was only good to 8 cell. The new controller I have been told I am getting is good to 15 cell. However this is a under wraps project for an manufacturer so unless they release me from my NDA I cant give out information. I have the chassis almost ready and am waiting for the controller. But I will be useign the 10K mAh cells so the car will be a 'heavy pig'.

I am suprised you did not complain about my radio. Just in case you missed it I am running a Multiplex Profi Car 707. Here I will give you a photo so you can find something to complain about. But you cant go to the looks I already went ther.

RURC

Happywing-
The holes is a personal thing for me. I just dont do it. I was being sarcastic on the anodizing thing. I have one down the road i can go to if I want. But for me it is like car stereo. I used to build competation cars and I would not let the system intrude into the car. If the purpose and functionality was effected I generally would not do it. Besides if you cant tell already I am a little OCD. LOL.

No I am not advertising my services. I do however consider it 'my' thread, I did start it. But I want it to be looked at as helping. So feel free to post. God I have people knocking too much as it is. My clients have to wait at least a month for me to even start their projects. My intent is to get information out. I see too much BS out there. People takl from something they have read (MM and a Neu motor) and not worked with it. I am not saying Nickl is one of those. He may have had a real issue. But I have read it over and over that the Neu and the MM dont work. Same thing with the MM not running Novak motors. That is false I do it all the time.

I have used the 1515 and 1512 and the Bam and others from Neu but I have never had a 1509. I think it will work fine. We will find out though. I have never noticed any hesitation in my set ups except for the Quarks.

RURC

Happywing-
On Nick P so far he seems like one of those that looks to rain on anyones parade. Just look at the negaitivty here. I understand the questions but man he is just too much. As a newbe here he may want to let others know who he is before he launches. Righ tnow to me he is blowing smoke. He sounds bright so lets see where he goes before we damn him to the firey place.

Nick_P

From maxamps:
NEW COPPER TAB CELLS
10000mah Capacity
14.8 Volts
59mm X 158mm X 42mm
15C Constant(150 amps)
20C Sustained(200 amps)
30C Burst(300 amps)
820 grams
Comes with Apache/Hyperion Taps
Comes standard with 12 awg wire

Or here we have 8kMah 4s2p pack:
Lipo 8000HV 4S2P 14.8V Pack Details


NEW COPPER TAB CELLS!
8000mah Capacity
14.8 Volts
44mm X 137mm X 50mm
20C Constant(160 amps)
30C Sustained(240 amps)
50C Burst(400 amps)
725 grams

Your adding 100grams doesnt sound like alot but it is. Your also adding 15mm x 21mm x -8 again doesnt sound like alot but in tight confines it is. Then the 220mah lipo pac for the reciver adds another 107 grams, less then the 200 I quoted earlier.

MM/nue seems to work for some but for alot including me it didnt. Yes it is a smoother controler, but I dont want any hesitation even from zero throttle. Never said I didnt like shultz, it was the only controler I ran in my heli days.

The 1515 or 1512 is just plain and simply a better motor for the application. In effecientcy alone which translate into reduce heat and amp draw. Especially if you plan to run it for an hour or more.

happywing

Nick P. - Did you mess with the punch control and throttle curve with your MM? We have found a setup around here that has worked in all cases so far with the Neu motors. The hesitation from a dead stop is negligible. Others who have driven my buggy don't even notice the hesitation. I know it's there because I've been driving that buggy for a long time, as nitro and electric.
Every controller for this type of use has a negative aspect. The MM has the most tolerable negative IMO and at $120.00 I can afford to have a backup lying around if I need it.

Nick_P

If you read what I said as negitivity, then nevermind. I questioned your choices when there seems to better equipment even after you said this I had problems with the MM and Nue, ive read others who have had problems, there seems to be more with problems then without.

I keep forgeting how post count means anything, other then you spend alot of time typing. I was a member here well before the site went commercial and did all the changes. I have been a member after that since 2005. Sorry I like to read, and only post when it seems prudent to.

Sorry I questioned your choices, I wont do it again. Oh and your radio sucks, that on off switch may cuase thermaling.

Happywing,

I tired a few things on the MM, but got tired fairly quick. No one else really around to compare notes with, but would be willing to give it another try if you can post your settings.

happywing

There are some things you need to do to make the MM work for a long race. We all now put holes in the case an blow a fan through the holes. This has brought our temps way down. Drag-brake must be turned off. Other settings:

Low start power
30% punch
defult timming
30% brake

These are my settings, but amongst us there are some slight variances.

Go to RC Tech. There is a thread called "Electric 1/8 Buggy Conversion Kits," located in the "Electric Off Road section." Most of the guys there are running the MM/Neu combo. There are pics of the MM with holes/fans and several guys list their settings (page 13/14 of the thread), which are very close to what I listed above. This whole thread is worth checking out. It is very active. There is one guy there that's really mopping up against the nitros in his area with a Losi 8ight conversion kit. The thread was started by a local guy who sells the 8ight conversion kit.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=158327

crotolus

you should see my friends losi 8 converted to electric.AWESOME!!!!

RURC

Nick P-
I am very relived to see that you are not what you seemed to me at first. I am glad that you have dome your homework.

Seeing that you had so few posts here I did not know what to expect. there are many here that just look to tare down not constructively disseminate something. So let me be the first to apologize and welcome your thoughts.

On the battery part one thing you may not have noticed is that I have several of these batteries already this falls into my want to stay on some kind of budget. I have used these cells in many projects and they have proven to be up to the task. I only have one of the 8k packs and that is a 3 cell one. Also this car is going to my son when I am done it will be an improvement over his current buggy. Now with the motor, even thought I do not want to 'skimp' on the electronics the 1509 motor is a little less expensive and I really do want to keep a budget on this one. I agree that the 1512 or the 1515 may be better overall on paper, but like I have said I have not tried a 1509 in a buggy and I want to. I do feel that it will be quite good in this application. I will talk to Steve Neu on this tomorrow and get his feelings. And I have one that was purchased for another client project who then decided that he wanted me to build him a electric HPI Baja instead. So I have one sitting around. I want this one to be a little bit of a learning experance also so I will be doing a few things that will seem unconventional just to see if they work. If they work great if not great. Even though I have done about 20 of these there are still things I have thought of that I want to try. This one is going to be a test mule as much as a gift for my son.

Now on the radio, the switch? Come on you could at least have gone after the color. But the switch. The real problem is that the battery plug is right under the switch and it is not keyed. So you can plug it in backwards. Please dont ask me how I know this it is embarrassing. Oh yea and there is not safety fuse or anything it just smokes the logic board. Bad design Multiplex.

OH on the second battery for the electronics I am almost 100% convinced that 99% of the starting issues with all sensorless systems is due to shocking the system. Remember how your esc works. It is a momentary contact avalanche switch for all intensive purposes. In the cars I have been doing this to I am not seeing the studder, hesitation, or what ever you want to call it. Like Happywing said no one else notices it but i know what to look for. My concern is that there may be a slight spike in the voltage causing an error. I know this is what happens as the battery gets low. This little separate battery has removed all these issues in my 1/8 scale and larger cars.

Finally I think you would find out that the Neu / MM systems work more than not. Lets face it if you go somewhere and get good service you will go back. If you get screwed you will tell 10 people about it. That is the same effect here. The ones you hear about are the ones with problems more often than the not. I know many, many people that are doing it and except for the forums and you I have not seen problems. Just something to think about.

Nick dont go away. Like my wife (no jokes please) you will help to keep me thinking. Like I said in the beginning you are not what I thought you were.

RURC

Take some pictures and post them.

RURC

This was not intended to be a build thread but after I started the thread I decided to make this car for my son and thought I would incorporate it into the thread. I have done some work today but I left my camera at the shop so I will post them tomorrow. I have mounted the steering servo and started working on the braking servo mount. For various reasons I am changing the mount position. I have also started on the battery plate. Due to a change in material I may change to the 8k battery that Nick P brought up. The battery plate is adding another 87g to this and I was already pushing what I felt was comfortable for the weight. I dont know yet though. I am still working on a motor mount in my head. I have a few things I want to try that are completely out of the box and may really suck. But those are a little on into the future.

I will post photos in the morning if I have time.

happywing

RURC - What is your estimated running weight of the new buggy?

junebug48

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[8D]hi . what would be a good brushless motor for a hyper 7 pcr pro and would i have to chang the spur gear from mg to plastic ? please just lmk . thank's for the help .