Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
12-21-2003, 08:06 AM
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Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
Just wondering what material everyone is using to make their rudders out of ? I , myself , have used aluminum , but , am not all that thrilled with it ( maybe its just my lousey soldering of the aluminum to aluminum thats the problem 
)
Reason - mine keep coming apart where the joints are . ( aluminum 1/2 tube soldered to aluminum sheeting the size of roofing flash ) I get about maybe a good half hour before she starts to break free .
I have read a LOT on both welding AND soldering aluminum and have tried LOTS of different ways that I have read in joining the pieces , but so far , none seem to be fool-proof .
I have also tried JB'ing it when it starts to come apart ( must be "breaking" free due to the vibration ).
Has anybody made any out of monocote with any luck ? ( not ripping I mean and on a LARGE scale for a gasser )
I was also considering wood , but not really thrilled at the idea ( doesn't look quite as good as the aluminum )
)Reason - mine keep coming apart where the joints are . ( aluminum 1/2 tube soldered to aluminum sheeting the size of roofing flash ) I get about maybe a good half hour before she starts to break free .
I have read a LOT on both welding AND soldering aluminum and have tried LOTS of different ways that I have read in joining the pieces , but so far , none seem to be fool-proof .
I have also tried JB'ing it when it starts to come apart ( must be "breaking" free due to the vibration ).
Has anybody made any out of monocote with any luck ? ( not ripping I mean and on a LARGE scale for a gasser )
I was also considering wood , but not really thrilled at the idea ( doesn't look quite as good as the aluminum )
12-21-2003, 09:31 AM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
T'.Bob,
Guess it just depends on how much trouble you want to go to, and what's commonly available. Aluminum comes in all different grades/types. I would imagine that aluminum 'siding' probably isn't the 'best' grade of stuff around. I know that T-6063, or other types of 'aircraft' grade aluminum, when welded, will withstand more stress than any kind of model boat could ever give it. Then, there are a bunch of other metals that can be used, if you want to use a metal rudder. The first thing that comes to mind is weight. Weight can be compensated for to some extent, but it does mean you have to plan for it. It's an 'elligant' way to add ballast though.
Depending on the kind of wood it is, wooden rudders can be as strong as an aluminum rudder. It'll be slightly larger in size, but not really all that much. It can be shaped aerodynamically, which can be an advantage. It can also be nailed, glued, or screwed. Paint or coat it with the right stuff and it'll be as impervious as metal.
Then you could 'pour' your own rudder from resins. Light, almost any color you want, will never come loose from the rudder shaft, but a real P.I.T.A. if you don't know how to work with it. There are 'kits', though. And if you're really desperate, make them out of plexigl*****. Plexiglass can be glued, screwed, but not nailed. It's also brittle like glass. That's how you 'cut' it, score it, then 'crack' it off like a sheet of glass. But unless you find a better source than I have, it ain't cheap.
Basically, the only limitation is your imagination (and wallet)...
- LtDoc
Guess it just depends on how much trouble you want to go to, and what's commonly available. Aluminum comes in all different grades/types. I would imagine that aluminum 'siding' probably isn't the 'best' grade of stuff around. I know that T-6063, or other types of 'aircraft' grade aluminum, when welded, will withstand more stress than any kind of model boat could ever give it. Then, there are a bunch of other metals that can be used, if you want to use a metal rudder. The first thing that comes to mind is weight. Weight can be compensated for to some extent, but it does mean you have to plan for it. It's an 'elligant' way to add ballast though.
Depending on the kind of wood it is, wooden rudders can be as strong as an aluminum rudder. It'll be slightly larger in size, but not really all that much. It can be shaped aerodynamically, which can be an advantage. It can also be nailed, glued, or screwed. Paint or coat it with the right stuff and it'll be as impervious as metal.
Then you could 'pour' your own rudder from resins. Light, almost any color you want, will never come loose from the rudder shaft, but a real P.I.T.A. if you don't know how to work with it. There are 'kits', though. And if you're really desperate, make them out of plexigl*****. Plexiglass can be glued, screwed, but not nailed. It's also brittle like glass. That's how you 'cut' it, score it, then 'crack' it off like a sheet of glass. But unless you find a better source than I have, it ain't cheap.
Basically, the only limitation is your imagination (and wallet)...
- LtDoc
12-21-2003, 09:54 AM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
LOL ... thats kind of what I thought also ( about the aluminum ) .
The fellow I got it from worked at this aluminum called FRIES . He said it was 7075 T6 for the tube stuff and 6061 T6 for the sheeting . ( not knowing what the heck this all means though -
)
So , now , the next question - you said welding the aluminum is REALLY strong .... ( I soldered it with what was told to me to be stuff for aluminum - 91 % tin 9 % zinc ( strange no aluminum though - )
They have some aluminum stick welding rod ... you think this would be better ? Any idea on what amperage I should set my welder at ? The flat aluminum sheeting part of the rudder is probably no thicker than say a match book cover .
The fellow I got it from worked at this aluminum called FRIES . He said it was 7075 T6 for the tube stuff and 6061 T6 for the sheeting . ( not knowing what the heck this all means though -
) So , now , the next question - you said welding the aluminum is REALLY strong .... ( I soldered it with what was told to me to be stuff for aluminum - 91 % tin 9 % zinc ( strange no aluminum though -
)They have some aluminum stick welding rod ... you think this would be better ? Any idea on what amperage I should set my welder at ? The flat aluminum sheeting part of the rudder is probably no thicker than say a match book cover .
12-21-2003, 09:49 PM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
TERBObob
We've been using coroplast on ours. They are lightweight, work great and are easy to replace if one gets damaged. Yesterday we had one get partially torn off after a rollover and we just used zip ties to reattach it. If you're putting it on a larger airboat you could just double it up so you
could make a larger and stronger one.
Dan
We've been using coroplast on ours. They are lightweight, work great and are easy to replace if one gets damaged. Yesterday we had one get partially torn off after a rollover and we just used zip ties to reattach it. If you're putting it on a larger airboat you could just double it up so you
could make a larger and stronger one.
Dan
12-21-2003, 10:04 PM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
Ok DWC .... without making myself sound too much like a dumbie here .... could you tell me , what is coroplast ? And where would someone get this ?
12-21-2003, 10:54 PM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
I'll have to agreee with DWC, Coroplast makes great rudders. I have an entire airboat built out of it. Coroplast is corrugated plastic. Typical use is signs. Check out the SPAD forum for more info and uses.
Dave
Dave
12-21-2003, 11:30 PM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
TERBObob
You can find coroplast at almost any gas station, they use it for advertising and also election
signs. A lot of people get it for free when they throw it out but you can order it from Harborsales.net or get it from a local sign shop possibly. It runs from around $8 to $20 per
4 by 8 ft. sheet and comes in different colors. Here's a pic of some of the planes I've built
with the stuff.
KS_Pyro nice looking airboat. How does it work for you and what engine are you running?
We started out building with coro but we had problems with it wearing off the bottom too fast
so we ended up fiberglassing pink foam instead.
Dan
You can find coroplast at almost any gas station, they use it for advertising and also election
signs. A lot of people get it for free when they throw it out but you can order it from Harborsales.net or get it from a local sign shop possibly. It runs from around $8 to $20 per
4 by 8 ft. sheet and comes in different colors. Here's a pic of some of the planes I've built
with the stuff.
KS_Pyro nice looking airboat. How does it work for you and what engine are you running?
We started out building with coro but we had problems with it wearing off the bottom too fast
so we ended up fiberglassing pink foam instead.
Dan
12-21-2003, 11:48 PM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
Thank you gents . I've gotta say that the talent on this forum is never ending . VERY ingenious . ( BTW - LOVE the planes - never flown or owned one , but have watched MANY . )
Thanks again guys .
I now know what you mean and might try my hand at making one .
Thanks again guys .
I now know what you mean and might try my hand at making one .
12-22-2003, 01:39 AM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
I thought that years ago my idea of using foam tagboard was a great idea. It was if you wanted a tank to be able to float......
This material seems much better.
I have seen coroplast in use for many years in airplanes. They even make pit totes out of it.
How about a thread on how to use it. Cutting, sealing the open edges, painting etc. How is it for being fuelproof? Different thicknesses available? Types of glues?
Hey, if done right, you have built in flotation chambers![8D]
This material seems much better.
I have seen coroplast in use for many years in airplanes. They even make pit totes out of it.
How about a thread on how to use it. Cutting, sealing the open edges, painting etc. How is it for being fuelproof? Different thicknesses available? Types of glues?
Hey, if done right, you have built in flotation chambers![8D]
12-22-2003, 05:51 AM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
T.'Bob,
I'm the wrong one to ask about welding aluminum or anything else. I've had it done, but never done any of it. What little I do know about it, I've picked up in all the usual places people pick up stuff like that, and it certainly wouldn't suprize me to find out that a lot of what I picked up is wrong.
Along with the 'coroplast' there are a number of other plastics that are available. There's some 'stuff' called 'card-stock', basically just sheets of plastic in different thickneses, colors, surface types, and on and on. Sign companies can be a good source, along with other types of industies, and of course the honorable art of 'dumpster-diving' (you might be amazed at what you find sometimes. Both good and bad!). The thing is, you can use almost anything to do almost anything, if you're desperate enough. Laminating cardboard with PVC glue works quite well for certain things, if you're desperate enough...
- 'LtDoc
I'm the wrong one to ask about welding aluminum or anything else. I've had it done, but never done any of it. What little I do know about it, I've picked up in all the usual places people pick up stuff like that, and it certainly wouldn't suprize me to find out that a lot of what I picked up is wrong.
Along with the 'coroplast' there are a number of other plastics that are available. There's some 'stuff' called 'card-stock', basically just sheets of plastic in different thickneses, colors, surface types, and on and on. Sign companies can be a good source, along with other types of industies, and of course the honorable art of 'dumpster-diving' (you might be amazed at what you find sometimes. Both good and bad!). The thing is, you can use almost anything to do almost anything, if you're desperate enough. Laminating cardboard with PVC glue works quite well for certain things, if you're desperate enough...
- 'LtDoc
12-22-2003, 02:54 PM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
DWC:
Thanks for the compliments. I build that one in about 3 hours start to finish to play in the snow with. In that pic, I had a Magnum .25 on it which I ran last season. I have on OS .40 on it right now but I may try a .61 before the winter is over. The coro is holding up fine. I'm on the second winter with it and it hasn't even wore off the scuff marks on that were on the coro. I'm only running in the snow though.
Pro27:
Coro is fuelproof, easy to work with, and comes in many colors. I cut mine with a regular utility knife and a straightedge. CA glue sticks well if you 'flash' or rough it up with sandpaper. I didn't even try to seal mine up that well. There is only 4 seams to worry about on the hull and I glued them and braced with angle cut from gutter pipe which was glued in as well as screwed. If I were to run it on the water, I'd probably add some silicone caulking where the seams meet. Check out the SPAD forum here on RCU. There were quite a few airboats that were made of coro and posted there last winter.
Below is the basic plan for the hull that was posted in the SPAD forum last year. It is a simple cut, fold, and glue. I made mine 16" wide with 4" tall sides for more stability. Reinforce the joints with gutterpipe that has been split to form a 90 degree angle.
If anyone is interested, I can post more pics and details on how I built mine.
Dave
Thanks for the compliments. I build that one in about 3 hours start to finish to play in the snow with. In that pic, I had a Magnum .25 on it which I ran last season. I have on OS .40 on it right now but I may try a .61 before the winter is over. The coro is holding up fine. I'm on the second winter with it and it hasn't even wore off the scuff marks on that were on the coro. I'm only running in the snow though.
Pro27:
Coro is fuelproof, easy to work with, and comes in many colors. I cut mine with a regular utility knife and a straightedge. CA glue sticks well if you 'flash' or rough it up with sandpaper. I didn't even try to seal mine up that well. There is only 4 seams to worry about on the hull and I glued them and braced with angle cut from gutter pipe which was glued in as well as screwed. If I were to run it on the water, I'd probably add some silicone caulking where the seams meet. Check out the SPAD forum here on RCU. There were quite a few airboats that were made of coro and posted there last winter.
Below is the basic plan for the hull that was posted in the SPAD forum last year. It is a simple cut, fold, and glue. I made mine 16" wide with 4" tall sides for more stability. Reinforce the joints with gutterpipe that has been split to form a 90 degree angle.
If anyone is interested, I can post more pics and details on how I built mine.
Dave
12-23-2003, 12:19 AM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
ORIGINAL:
If anyone is interested, I can post more pics and details on how I built mine.
Dave
If anyone is interested, I can post more pics and details on how I built mine.
Dave
Please do..........
12-31-2003, 10:00 PM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
On my air boat, I made mine simple. using .063" aluminum plate, cut the pair of rudders to the size I wanted to use, then mounted them to my boat with small hinges, using 6/32 bolts. works great. As for welding the aluiminum unless you have a TIG or MIG welding machine, you would be wasting your time. Aluminum is very unforgiving when it comes to welding.
01-06-2004, 08:17 AM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
I am building a 48" x 24" wood airboat with zenoah 23 power plant. While shopping at Hobbytown Sunday afternoon, I found a display rack ot Plastruct products. I bought a pack of 7" x 12" 2mm plastic sheets and made two rudders yesterday and they seem strong and are easy to work with. The rudders are full size and will cut down later after I get some more info on the size and shape they need to be. It will be a couple of weeks until the fat, flat airboat will be launched. FYI, engine is inverted, chines are beveled, prop is standard (since pushers are not as plentiful), fuel tank is IV bag, engine is totally adjustable and hull will be epoxy coated only. You have all been a great help and love seeing and reading your post. John
01-06-2004, 08:56 PM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
John ,
Just curious here ... since my RYOBI can easily push either a 16/10 3 blade pusher , and or a 18/10 regular ( M.A) , was wondering what prop size and pitch you are going with ?
And the plastic .... I thought about that myself , but also thought - what would happen if by chance it broke/shattered due to vibration ? Let me know how it turns out .
( and pics would be GREAT to see also )
Just curious here ... since my RYOBI can easily push either a 16/10 3 blade pusher , and or a 18/10 regular ( M.A) , was wondering what prop size and pitch you are going with ?
And the plastic .... I thought about that myself , but also thought - what would happen if by chance it broke/shattered due to vibration ? Let me know how it turns out .
( and pics would be GREAT to see also
)
01-07-2004, 07:29 AM
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RE: Rudder(s) and what you use to make them
Terbobob-I hadn't considered the posibility of rudders shattering, but I guess it would not be much different that a shattered prop. I have a 13.8 x10 four blade and a 16 x 10 two blade to start with. The reasoning for these props is to lower the center of balance and I made the cage 17" in diameter. If I need to go to a larger prop then I will have to make another cage or buy larger props and cut them down like we do with our race boats.I am going to take the beasty thing to the airport and let my friend (airplane designer and rebuilder) give me some pointers on the rudder size and shape. He recommended earlier that I place my pivot hinges and pin at 25% from forward part of rudder. Yesterday I removed all mounts, engine and rudder and cleaned up, beefed up and reinstalled. If humidity is low today, then maybe some glass work.
