1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
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1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
I can't get the k4.6 engine to start on my Savage X SS and was hoping for some advice.
Here is what I've tried:
It's a new engine sort of difficult to pull the cord, so I've heated the motor with a blow dryer which helps a lot.
I've visually verified that the glow plug works.
I've verified that the idle screw is set appropriately (about a 1 mm gap with the brake engaged).
I've verified the fuel flows correctly by blowing through the pressure line and seeing the gas pour out of the carbuerator line into my fuel bottle.
I probably flooded the engine earlier this morning as I witnessed fuel bubbling through the port where the glow plug is inserted while the plug was in.
In order to unflood the engine Ientirely closed the HSN and cranked on the pull chord for a few times.
After doing all this, and waiting about 1/2 hour, I tried again and did get the motor to fire for a quick second, but it ultimately died and I was unable to get it started again. Since going through the above procedure I've gotten better results, but ultimately, it won't start.
Any suggestions?
Here is what I've tried:
It's a new engine sort of difficult to pull the cord, so I've heated the motor with a blow dryer which helps a lot.
I've visually verified that the glow plug works.
I've verified that the idle screw is set appropriately (about a 1 mm gap with the brake engaged).
I've verified the fuel flows correctly by blowing through the pressure line and seeing the gas pour out of the carbuerator line into my fuel bottle.
I probably flooded the engine earlier this morning as I witnessed fuel bubbling through the port where the glow plug is inserted while the plug was in.
In order to unflood the engine Ientirely closed the HSN and cranked on the pull chord for a few times.
After doing all this, and waiting about 1/2 hour, I tried again and did get the motor to fire for a quick second, but it ultimately died and I was unable to get it started again. Since going through the above procedure I've gotten better results, but ultimately, it won't start.
Any suggestions?
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
ORIGINAL: 6stringer
Since going through the above procedure I've gotten better results, but ultimately, it won't start.
Any suggestions?
Since going through the above procedure I've gotten better results, but ultimately, it won't start.
Any suggestions?
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
Yes, that is what is happening. It appears to keep flooding itself.
I've gotten it to fire a couple of times since then, but it simply won't stay running for very long (no more than a few seconds).
I made the mistake of keeping the HSN needle pretty much closed all the way one time, and tried opening up the throttle. WHen I did that, it ran, reved up, and died after I closed the throttle a bit. On the next try I noticed I left the HSNpretty much closed, and after re-setting it to factory and leaving the throttle open, it flooded pretty fast and didn't fire at all. So it sounds like ihave a flooding problem.
Should Itry leaning it out a 1/4 turn at a time until it stays running?
Also, it seems to be awfully difficult to get the Glow plug in. It cross threads real easy, always has.
How tight do you want that glow plug in there? Sometimes I can hear the sucking sound and the bubbling of the gas coming through when it get's flooded. Should Ireally crank on that thing to tighten it down? I don't want to screw up the threads, so I have been sort of tentative with it.
I've gotten it to fire a couple of times since then, but it simply won't stay running for very long (no more than a few seconds).
I made the mistake of keeping the HSN needle pretty much closed all the way one time, and tried opening up the throttle. WHen I did that, it ran, reved up, and died after I closed the throttle a bit. On the next try I noticed I left the HSNpretty much closed, and after re-setting it to factory and leaving the throttle open, it flooded pretty fast and didn't fire at all. So it sounds like ihave a flooding problem.
Should Itry leaning it out a 1/4 turn at a time until it stays running?
Also, it seems to be awfully difficult to get the Glow plug in. It cross threads real easy, always has.
How tight do you want that glow plug in there? Sometimes I can hear the sucking sound and the bubbling of the gas coming through when it get's flooded. Should Ireally crank on that thing to tighten it down? I don't want to screw up the threads, so I have been sort of tentative with it.
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
1/4 turn at a time isn't bad. I would maybe even go more than that on the first one or two attempts. Just until it feels like it's getting close to keeping itself running, then go 1/4 turns.
A method that I use to keep from cross threading is to start by turning the plug counter clockwise until you feel it drop down a touch. That way you know it's seated correctly. Then start turning clockwise. You shouldn't need to crank on the plug at all. Just go until it's nice and tight.
A method that I use to keep from cross threading is to start by turning the plug counter clockwise until you feel it drop down a touch. That way you know it's seated correctly. Then start turning clockwise. You shouldn't need to crank on the plug at all. Just go until it's nice and tight.
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
Got started, and got through the 1st tank. Thanks. Leaning the HSN out helped a lot, but Iam probably a full turn and a 1/2 away from factory settings which makes me a little nervous, but I've been monitoring the temp and it doesn't get much above 110 degree's at this point.
I am on the second tank and have a new problem. The engine starts right up, but will not hold an idle unless Imanually keep the throttle open a bit. It just dies.
I'm not sure if this is a flooding issue, Idon't think it is.But man alive, this thing is spitting gas all over the place.
I've been manipulating the throttle linkage with my fingers to give it a good rev (while on the stand) to clean it out, revs fine and clean with a ton of blue smoke. But as soon as I try to let the throttle go all the way to the idle screw, Kaput.
Plus, it runs a ton better if Ileave the glow ignitor in.
Suggestions?
Should Istart fiddline with the idle screw? Or is still too early in the break in process, I've heard you're not supposed to touch this until the engine reaches break-in temp.
I am on the second tank and have a new problem. The engine starts right up, but will not hold an idle unless Imanually keep the throttle open a bit. It just dies.
I'm not sure if this is a flooding issue, Idon't think it is.But man alive, this thing is spitting gas all over the place.
I've been manipulating the throttle linkage with my fingers to give it a good rev (while on the stand) to clean it out, revs fine and clean with a ton of blue smoke. But as soon as I try to let the throttle go all the way to the idle screw, Kaput.
Plus, it runs a ton better if Ileave the glow ignitor in.
Suggestions?
Should Istart fiddline with the idle screw? Or is still too early in the break in process, I've heard you're not supposed to touch this until the engine reaches break-in temp.
#9
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
Okay, only hitting 110? WAY too cold. It needs to be about twice that temperature to break in properly. Wrap about half the fins with aluminum foil or a cut sock, something to insulate it. Keep checking the temps, and if it wants to shoot up past 240F expose a couple more fins.
As for it not wanting to idle, that may be a by-product of it not building any heat. Glow engines require a fair amount of heat to run properly.
As for it not wanting to idle, that may be a by-product of it not building any heat. Glow engines require a fair amount of heat to run properly.
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
Iran up tot he LHS for some more advice. THey suggested that I need to adjust the throttle trim to keep the engine running. I did that and keeping it running was way easier - although it did ultimately kill and sputter out. I think with some more tinkering tommorow I will be able to keep it running.
I revved it up real good a few times and got the temp. up to about 140 degree's. I'm out of time today but tommorow I am going to start doing some figure eights and ovals and cycling the engine temp. I bet once Iam able to open it up a bit Iwill be able to get that temperature up.
With that rich of a mixture it wasn't heating up at all just sitting in idle, soI am willing to bet some longer 1/2 throttle runs on smooth pavement will heat it up a bit.
Thanks for all the help fellas. This isn't rocket science, but to a newb like myself, the learning curve is steep.
I revved it up real good a few times and got the temp. up to about 140 degree's. I'm out of time today but tommorow I am going to start doing some figure eights and ovals and cycling the engine temp. I bet once Iam able to open it up a bit Iwill be able to get that temperature up.
With that rich of a mixture it wasn't heating up at all just sitting in idle, soI am willing to bet some longer 1/2 throttle runs on smooth pavement will heat it up a bit.
Thanks for all the help fellas. This isn't rocket science, but to a newb like myself, the learning curve is steep.
#11
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
I don't advise you rev it to get heat into it. Wrap half of the cooling fins with something that won't catch fire instead, then just keep a close eye on the temps. You MUST get it to at least 220ºF or it won't break in properly. I learned this the hard way, I broke mine in running cold and it only lasted two an d a half gallons. My second engine was broken in properly, in that it was allowed to warm up to normal temps, and it's still going strong at the same point.
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
So it needs to reach these temps without revving? It should reach 220 just idling before moving on to the next step of the break in process?
At what point can I start doing the ovals/figure eights?
At what point can I start doing the ovals/figure eights?
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
Yes, the process of break in is really just a heat cycle. All you need to do is get it up to 200F, shut down, repeat, do this 10 or 15 times and you're golden. This advice you see people give of running a whole tank or 2 at idle, is a waste of time AND it doesn't actually break the engine in. What you want from the break in process is to get the metals used to heating up and cooling down and the changed tolerances this heat causes.
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
Is there a chance that Iam simply running it rich? It bogs pretty heavily, and man alive, the heat sink at some points has a pool of nitro sitting in it (well, not a pool, but definetely a glow plug sized puddle a couple of millimeters deep).
Coupling that with the fact that the temp really doesn't get above 120 degrees when idling...
I leaned HSN it about a full turn from factory, that should be okay it seems?
Coupling that with the fact that the temp really doesn't get above 120 degrees when idling...
I leaned HSN it about a full turn from factory, that should be okay it seems?
#15
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
Yes, there is. The oil content in the fuel removes heat from the engine. This is a good thing, when you're ripping along this pulls half of the heat out. During break-in, with the rich settings used to flush metal shavings out(they form naturally don't worry), they remove too much heat. Wrapping the cylinder head prevents that from doing it's part, which will raise engine temps.
You still want it rich, that's why I advised wrapping the head as opposed to leaning it until it warms up naturally, but if it's rich enough where it won't stay running it's too rich. It should bog and it should act like it doesn't want to rev because there's too much inside the engine, all while emitting huge clouds of blue smoke, but at the same time it should stay running without the glow ignitor attached and it should be above 200F(I like mine to be right around 220 during breakin, and I adjust the amount of cooling fins exposed to control this).
Also, once the engine is running, you should tighten the glow plug back down. A loose plug is going to cause a compression leak and risks stripping the head. Once broken in you shouldn't need to loosen the plug to get it started anymore.
As for doing the figure eights and ovals, you can do that right from the get go. I let my OS run for about 90% of the tank when I broke it in, and as I did, I did gentle driving up to about a quarter throttle. I shut it down by plugging the exhaust, you don't want to run it out of fuel when it's fresh like this. It won't hurt the engine and a little load, that is to say having to move the car, will help warm it up. Just keep the revs down while doing your figure eights. This will also help seat in the chassis as well, especially the diffs. I also suggest you apply gentle braking after every gentle acceleration, to get the brakes seated in and to tell you if they need adjusting.
You still want it rich, that's why I advised wrapping the head as opposed to leaning it until it warms up naturally, but if it's rich enough where it won't stay running it's too rich. It should bog and it should act like it doesn't want to rev because there's too much inside the engine, all while emitting huge clouds of blue smoke, but at the same time it should stay running without the glow ignitor attached and it should be above 200F(I like mine to be right around 220 during breakin, and I adjust the amount of cooling fins exposed to control this).
Also, once the engine is running, you should tighten the glow plug back down. A loose plug is going to cause a compression leak and risks stripping the head. Once broken in you shouldn't need to loosen the plug to get it started anymore.
As for doing the figure eights and ovals, you can do that right from the get go. I let my OS run for about 90% of the tank when I broke it in, and as I did, I did gentle driving up to about a quarter throttle. I shut it down by plugging the exhaust, you don't want to run it out of fuel when it's fresh like this. It won't hurt the engine and a little load, that is to say having to move the car, will help warm it up. Just keep the revs down while doing your figure eights. This will also help seat in the chassis as well, especially the diffs. I also suggest you apply gentle braking after every gentle acceleration, to get the brakes seated in and to tell you if they need adjusting.
#16
RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
To break my K4.6 in I had to lean it out considerably
the stock setting are WAY too rich I got it running on stock and the motor never got over 170 degrees (it was 110 out that day)
I had to go about 2.5 turns out from completely closed to get it to the proper temps.
the factory settings are insanely overly rich, and if you are unlucky like me you will damage your con-rod from it hydro-locking due to them
the stock setting are WAY too rich I got it running on stock and the motor never got over 170 degrees (it was 110 out that day)
I had to go about 2.5 turns out from completely closed to get it to the proper temps.
the factory settings are insanely overly rich, and if you are unlucky like me you will damage your con-rod from it hydro-locking due to them
#17
RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
What most car guys dont understand about tapered bore engines is just about any model engine made whether it be for a car or an airplane (or heli for that matter) need to be broken in at high RPM with a rich mixture. This ensures the rod bushings and bearings seat properly. The rich mixture (not a blubbery rich 4-stroking mixture!) provides the extra lube and the high RPM gets the engine up to temp. You can dilly dally all day long doing "taking it easy" but it does nothing for seating the piston to the bore or seat the rod ends.
The oil doesnt carry much heat away from the engine when the mixture is rich! The lower operating temps is because of the extra methanol which evaporates fast and burns much cooler than say gasoline.
"factory settings" are often too rich to properly run. The last few engines I've broke in from new needed to be leaned considerably to run properly and break-in properly. I used to believe taking it easy at the over-rich factory settings to be gospel but after speaking with many kind gentlemen running glow engines longer than I've walked this planet, I have changed my regimen with great success.
One other important factor to keep in mind when breaking a new engine in - When you finish your initial 'break-in", you want your engine turning the RPMs that it will turn afterward. After the first tank of rich operation, the carb needs to be leaned down in increments to get the RPM up higher. This should be stretched out over 2-3 tanks and thats really all thats needed. Modern ABC engines do not need an excessive break-in. Usually 2-3 8oz tanks is more than sufficient to start tuning it down for power.
Many gentlemen i've talked to have gotten 200+ hours on an engine with the only thing being needed is new bearings. Some guys have engines they got when they were kids and are now in their 60's and 70's still running those very same engines with the original piston and liners. I'd have to say their advice has something to say on engine longevity. Also, when it comes to lube in the fuel - Castor oil is king. Always run fuel with some castor in it. Trinity, Byrons, and Odonnell all make fuel with a castor blend. If you use fuel with at least 2-5% castor, you will never need to use after-run oil. Period.
Thats my 2 cents - take it or leave it but dont harp on me for being wrong. To me, experience trumps user/owner manuals any day of the week because most user/owner manuals aren't written by the engineers that designed the engine anyway. They are oftentimes written by the PR/Sales department and dont (IMO) include the pertinent information everyone really should have.
The oil doesnt carry much heat away from the engine when the mixture is rich! The lower operating temps is because of the extra methanol which evaporates fast and burns much cooler than say gasoline.
"factory settings" are often too rich to properly run. The last few engines I've broke in from new needed to be leaned considerably to run properly and break-in properly. I used to believe taking it easy at the over-rich factory settings to be gospel but after speaking with many kind gentlemen running glow engines longer than I've walked this planet, I have changed my regimen with great success.
One other important factor to keep in mind when breaking a new engine in - When you finish your initial 'break-in", you want your engine turning the RPMs that it will turn afterward. After the first tank of rich operation, the carb needs to be leaned down in increments to get the RPM up higher. This should be stretched out over 2-3 tanks and thats really all thats needed. Modern ABC engines do not need an excessive break-in. Usually 2-3 8oz tanks is more than sufficient to start tuning it down for power.
Many gentlemen i've talked to have gotten 200+ hours on an engine with the only thing being needed is new bearings. Some guys have engines they got when they were kids and are now in their 60's and 70's still running those very same engines with the original piston and liners. I'd have to say their advice has something to say on engine longevity. Also, when it comes to lube in the fuel - Castor oil is king. Always run fuel with some castor in it. Trinity, Byrons, and Odonnell all make fuel with a castor blend. If you use fuel with at least 2-5% castor, you will never need to use after-run oil. Period.
Thats my 2 cents - take it or leave it but dont harp on me for being wrong. To me, experience trumps user/owner manuals any day of the week because most user/owner manuals aren't written by the engineers that designed the engine anyway. They are oftentimes written by the PR/Sales department and dont (IMO) include the pertinent information everyone really should have.
#18
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RE: 1st break-in procedure - engine won't start
...You have a chassis dyno that can accurately load the engines up then?
See, the thing with plane and heli motors is that they have a constant load on them. You can jam them WOT from the word go and not over-rev them. Car engines have no such luxury, either they scream along 15,000 RPM higher than they'll ever go in normal service, which throws rods, or they only spend three or four seconds at speed before having to come right back down again when the driver slams on the brakes. Another thing you're forgetting is that the brakes on a new car don't work properly right out of the box and often need to be adjusted, yet your method requires jamming the throttle open the moment it fires and sending a 10 pound on average missile flying down the road with potentially no way to arrest it short hitting something.
On top of all of that you're forgetting just how mind bogglingly high our engines rev. Most plane engines can make about 16,000 RPM in a dive without exploding. Car engines rev to twice that. Well, most of them, mine only hits 32 grand but that's still WAY higher than your average aircraft engine. My 46AX can only hit about 12-14K depending on prop and nitro content. You're not going to find a plane motor revving that high unless you look into the really high end pylon motors(Which don't even have carbs half the time, how primitive) and old Cox 0.010s. You want a sure-fire way to throw a rod in a car engine? Rev it's nuts off before the piston and sleeve have become acclimated.
Car engines are broken in differently from airplane engines. The application is different, the engines are different, the break-in procedure is different. You're not breaking in just the engine, you're breaking in the whole car. I would break in an airplane engine completely differently from how I would break in a car engine because they're so wildly different. The only real similarity is the basic construction. They're both tapered bore two stroke glow engines, but beyond that...completely different.
Now as for castor, while I do agree that it offers our engines good protection, it's nowhere near as vital as it is on aircraft engines. Everything going in is filtered. Dust, dirt, grit and debris does not normally have an avenue to get in. We, therefore, don't need castor's ability to plug minor scratches. We also tend to run our engines out of fuel to stop them, so there's never any combustion by-products left in the engine anyways. I've run mine on full synthetic and castor/syn blends, never used ARO, never gotten any rust issues. I always run the engine dry after the day's running as well.
In short, we can get away with a full synthetic blend.
See, the thing with plane and heli motors is that they have a constant load on them. You can jam them WOT from the word go and not over-rev them. Car engines have no such luxury, either they scream along 15,000 RPM higher than they'll ever go in normal service, which throws rods, or they only spend three or four seconds at speed before having to come right back down again when the driver slams on the brakes. Another thing you're forgetting is that the brakes on a new car don't work properly right out of the box and often need to be adjusted, yet your method requires jamming the throttle open the moment it fires and sending a 10 pound on average missile flying down the road with potentially no way to arrest it short hitting something.
On top of all of that you're forgetting just how mind bogglingly high our engines rev. Most plane engines can make about 16,000 RPM in a dive without exploding. Car engines rev to twice that. Well, most of them, mine only hits 32 grand but that's still WAY higher than your average aircraft engine. My 46AX can only hit about 12-14K depending on prop and nitro content. You're not going to find a plane motor revving that high unless you look into the really high end pylon motors(Which don't even have carbs half the time, how primitive) and old Cox 0.010s. You want a sure-fire way to throw a rod in a car engine? Rev it's nuts off before the piston and sleeve have become acclimated.
Car engines are broken in differently from airplane engines. The application is different, the engines are different, the break-in procedure is different. You're not breaking in just the engine, you're breaking in the whole car. I would break in an airplane engine completely differently from how I would break in a car engine because they're so wildly different. The only real similarity is the basic construction. They're both tapered bore two stroke glow engines, but beyond that...completely different.
Now as for castor, while I do agree that it offers our engines good protection, it's nowhere near as vital as it is on aircraft engines. Everything going in is filtered. Dust, dirt, grit and debris does not normally have an avenue to get in. We, therefore, don't need castor's ability to plug minor scratches. We also tend to run our engines out of fuel to stop them, so there's never any combustion by-products left in the engine anyways. I've run mine on full synthetic and castor/syn blends, never used ARO, never gotten any rust issues. I always run the engine dry after the day's running as well.
In short, we can get away with a full synthetic blend.