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Nitro Fuel

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Old 03-06-2012, 06:17 PM
  #1
ptopman
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Default Nitro Fuel

Is it just me or is nitro fuel a little expensive lately? Im looking at the Wildcat eliminator 20%n 18%o 1 gallon for about $35-40. Is that normal or is it me? What kind of fuel do you use and how much do you spend it? just trying to get an idea of prices.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: ptopman

Is it just me or is nitro fuel a little expensive lately? Im looking at the Wildcat eliminator 20%n 18%o 1 gallon for about $35-40. Is that normal or is it me? What kind of fuel do you use and how much do you spend it? just trying to get an idea of prices.
My LHS has several brands... 20%nitro 12%oil is usually $35-$37 a gallon. 18% oil is for airplanes.

I mix my own fuel at 20% nitro 12% castor for $20 a gallon or a little less.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:25 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Fuel

.... maybe $30-35 a gallon? last time i had to buy fuel was in october, i run in the snow and all, my T-maxx sips gas with its picco .15 and my OFNA 9.5 doesnt get much use and is also pretty fuel sipping regardless of its fearsome power of the Jammin JPX .21
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:15 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Fuel

It appears to have gone up by about 5 bucks. I payed about $30 for a gallon of O'Donnell last year, now I pay over $35.
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:36 AM
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Default RE: Nitro Fuel

just paid 28 for a gallon of odonnell speed blend 30%. thought that was kinda good.
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Old 03-07-2012, 01:16 AM
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Default RE: Nitro Fuel

I haven't bought fuel from the LHS in quite a while but I think it is still about $30/gallon here. Mixing you own really is the way to go if you are able to get what you need. I think I'm mixing fuel with 20% nitro, 10% caster for about $14-$16/gallon
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:40 AM
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Default RE: Nitro Fuel

My Blue Thunder 20% N 15% O is $25/gal here. I actually spend more on my airplane fuel by about two or three bucks, but it's 15%N.
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:48 AM
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I don't think I have ever spent more an airplane fuel. Plane engines eat everything, so I always buy the cheapest crap I can, which is usually Omega.
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Old 03-07-2012, 06:50 AM
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Default RE: Nitro Fuel

I sprung for 15% N because my engine could handle it and I like some pooowwwaaaarrrrr.


Well, that, and it was the only airplane fuel on the shelf. Everything else was heli, boat and car fuel.
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: ptopman

Is it just me or is nitro fuel a little expensive lately? Im looking at the Wildcat eliminator 20%n 18%o 1 gallon for about $35-40. Is that normal or is it me? What kind of fuel do you use and how much do you spend it? just trying to get an idea of prices.

that is swill your looking at buying...anything over 10% oil is junk and will never run correctly...it will make tuning difficult and create unwanted heat...... get a quality 30% like Werks and watch your engine magically come to life.....running anything over 10% oil is not needed and will only result in a engine that never tunes in correctly..... i cringe when i read what fuels some of these guys are running, no wonder their engines sound like 4 strokes !!!
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:16 AM
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Lolwut? More than 10% oil causes it to get hotter? The hell are you smoking?


I've told you time and again you're wrong about that. Aircraft engines don't overheat because of their 18-22% oil contents, and my car engines don't overheat because of the 15% oil fuel I run in them. If anything they don't get hot enough, I have to run with a shell on or they don't get past boiling point. They also tune in just fine, I don't have to touch my car's carb for six months. Six MONTHS on the same needle settings. And it runs like a top. Doesn't sound like a four stroke either, sounds like it's supposed to.


Ventilate your test chamber or something, bro. You're good at porting but you're sooo dead wrong about oil content. 10% oil is something only racers should be running, as it gives you NO safety zone for a lean run. Fuel line gets a pinhole leak? Engine on 15% oil is fine, just going to run a bit funny. Engine on 10% oil? It's lunched, chances are you're not going to notice it's going lean until there's serious internal damage.
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: 378

Lolwut? More than 10% oil causes it to get hotter? The hell are you smoking?


I've told you time and again you're wrong about that. Aircraft engines don't overheat because of their 18-22% oil contents, and my car engines don't overheat because of the 15% oil fuel I run in them. If anything they don't get hot enough, I have to run with a shell on or they don't get past boiling point. They also tune in just fine, I don't have to touch my car's carb for six months. Six MONTHS on the same needle settings. And it runs like a top. Doesn't sound like a four stroke either, sounds like it's supposed to.


Ventilate your test chamber or something, bro. You're good at porting but you're sooo dead wrong about oil content. 10% oil is something only racers should be running, as it gives you NO safety zone for a lean run. Fuel line gets a pinhole leak? Engine on 15% oil is fine, just going to run a bit funny. Engine on 10% oil? It's lunched, chances are you're not going to notice it's going lean until there's serious internal damage.

dude shut up already...your in way over your head...i watched your video and it was pathetic to say the least...your engine sound like a 4 stroke ! your airplanes are totally different then cars.......i am sick of you giving these people old outdated bad advice.....NO WONDER PEOPLE STRUGGLE TO LEARN HOW TO TUNE NITRO WITH ADVICE LIKE YOURS

and get over yourself dude....you are in way over your head and your just too ignorant to realize it..... 10% oil...no more ! any more causes heat and disrupts combustion...thats why your engine sounds like a 4 stroke in your video........your understanding of fuel is decades behind what is happening today..... I run 8% oil, my engines tune awesome and we get amazing performance and life...an entire season of racing and my Bonito shows only 0.0005' wear on the crankpin....come to a track someday and i will give you a lesson on modern nitro fuels..........
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:16 AM
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Default RE: Nitro Fuel

A few years back the price of fuel spiked aand we were told that it was because China had to shut down a couple of nitro plants due tothe Olympics. Fuel came down last year and I paid 15.50 and 16.00 for several case of 15% O'donnels and Bryrons. This spring we got a spike again I just paid $21 for a few cases of 15% Byrons and it was the best deal my LHS could find. I have not heard what phoney excuse for picking our pockets is this time but it seams to be industry wide.
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:20 AM
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I pay €44 a gallon for Tornado %25 "Ready to Race" - the version with I think %12 oil. I can get a "deal" at €40 per gallon if I buy four gallons at a time.

I tried the "Competition" blend with %9 oil and it was horrible. I have half a gallon left over for cleaning air filters, etc.. It made the tuning window much narrower, and temps go up all over - in about 3-4 different engines.. I had Sidewinder %25 before, and liked it, though it was possibly a tad too oily. My engines seemed to live forever though.. They also always ran at what many people would probably consider to be too cool temps.

I'm on probably my 6th gallon of Tornado since I switched, but I have too many engines and too little time to run all of them as much as I like to really be able to say how it affects longevity. But if I had to guess it kind of seems my engines lived longer with the oilier SW and maybe even made a tiny bit more power..(more oil = leaner settings with still cool temps - so it seems anyway..)

My LRP for ex., which I ran with SW, seemed more powerful than my 454 which I have been breaking in with Tornado. That can also be subjective though. On the other hand, the 21 buggy racing engines seem to do better with Tornado than with the SW.. Though there were exceptions there too..(my Caster Grenade with SW was still the best idling engine I have ever had..) And then yet again, I broke my Dynamite Big Red in with SW and now run it with Tornado, and it seems to have been picking up power all along.. So, as with so much in RC, there are just a lot of factors and variables and different things going on - some objective, others subjective..
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:25 AM
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Default RE: Nitro Fuel

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ORIGINAL: supertib



dude shut up already...your in way over your head...i watched your video and it was pathetic to say the least...your engine sound like a 4 stroke !
I've watched yours. Your engines refuse to idle down properly. You have the low speed set too lean.

My engine does not sound like a four stroke. You're just so used to engines begging for more fuel that you think 'normal' = 'rich as hell'.

Quote:
your airplanes are totally different then cars.
The engines are functionally identical. I can stuff my NTC3's tank with my Odonnel 15% sport plane fuel and the engine would run just fine. I could put my Blue Thunder 20% sport car fuel in my OS 46AX, and it would run just fine. May ping a bit because it's not designed for 20% nitro, but that's nothing a couple head shims can't fix. If things get tight financially, I can run both engines off FAI fuel, which is simply 80% methanol 20% castor oil.


They do not care. They are, internally, identical. The only difference is port timing and physical size.

Quote:
i am sick of you giving these people old outdated bad advice.
It can't be that bad. I've got three gallons on my CV-RX and it runs as well as the day I bought it.

Quote:
....NO WONDER PEOPLE STRUGGLE TO LEARN HOW TO TUNE NITRO WITH ADVICE LIKE YOURS
You're the only person on this entire forum that has said anything negative about the tuning advice I get out.


Wonder who's wrong here, the one who's agreed with by the vast majority, or the one nutjob that runs his engines lean all the time...



The funniest part of this rant of yours? I don't even offer tuning advice. I just drop this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma2_CghxiUk

If you don't like the tuning 'advice' I'm handing out, take it up with HPI. It's their advice.

Quote:
and get over yourself dude....you are in way over your head and your just too ignorant to realize it.
I've been around engines of all sizes since the day I could walk. Literally. You could put an IV needle in my arm, hook it to a weed eater's carb, and run the engine off what comes out. I've changed head gaskets, I've rebuilt carbs, I have the firing order for small-block Chevies and Ford I6s committed to memory, I've honed cylinders, set ignition timing, pretty much everything you can do to an engine without expensive machining equipment.


I know a thing or two about engines.

Quote:
any more causes heat and disrupts combustion.
Then why do my slightly rich engines fed with 15%O and up fuels run so cold I'm worried they're not getting hot enough? I can't run my touring car without a shell on if I want my engine to get into the proper temp range at all.


Explain that one, Mr "I'm the best tuner ever". By your logic I oughtta be able to melt lead just by setting it on the cooling fins.


Quote:
..thats why your engine sounds like a 4 stroke in your video.
My engine sounds like a two stroke.

Quote:
I run 8% oil, my engines tune awesome and we get amazing performance and life...an entire season of racing and my Bonito shows only 0.0005' wear on the crankpin.
Crankpin wear is not the only indication. Matter of fact it's one of the worst indicators for engine wear there is in RC. The bushing in the rod is MUCH softer than the crankpin itself, which means it's going to wear out instead of the crankpin, and the crankpin rarely gets hot in a normal engine. Might in yours given how lean you run them, but in an engine tuned sensibly it's rarely going to get hot at all, and will be inundated in lubricant. The crankshaft usually lasts the life of the engine.


The main wear indicator with glow engines is the piston and sleeve fit, and I guarantee yours would last longer if you ran a 12% or 15% oil fuel. You'd also find them running a bit cooler and needing FAR less tinkering every run. My engines are as fire and forget as any brushless setup out there.

Quote:
.come to a track someday and i will give you a lesson on modern nitro fuels..........
I don't race. You'd walk all over me if you used my cars with my tune and I used yours with your tune. There's nothing that would be proven by this, other than a basher does not have racing skills.


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Old 03-07-2012, 09:17 AM
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Well I use Maxy's 30%. Don't know what the oil content is but is an awesome fuel. Last time I bought a gallon I paid $35.00.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:40 AM
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in response to 378...

My engines are not lean by any means....your just not used to the note of a high RPM race engine.....if the engine was lean or poorly lubricated there would be immediate damage....I have no damage in my engines, and have no issues with engine life...My Bonito ran all season long, howling at 40 000 RPM , and still will lock my starter box if its at TDC...crankpin shows .0005 ovality ...that is 1/8th of its acceptable wear of 0.004......And my engines are run much harder and and much higher RPM's then your engines are....I expect to see 12 gallons of life from the piston/sleeve of the Bonito, and about double that on the crank...rod i will change out before next season starts.....This would not be possible if my engines were poorly lubricated........Putting around on the front street with a RTR engine means nothing, not untill you race and put your engines thru a season of racing would you understand the kind of abuse our race engines take....its a entirely different world........we are at the cutting edge of what fuel and lubricants can and cannot do....simply for the reason we compete and push the equipment to verge of failure day in and day out.......high oil does nothing but disrupt combustion and fool people into running excessively lean...High oil also creates more heat, and a much narrower tuning window as well as a much lower threshold of detonation...high oil will detonate much faster then low oil...... In the end we can run a tighter head and a much richer tune on low oil fuel...creating more power and a much broader tuning window, engines will still run crisp and make good power on even a rich mixture setting.......low nitro high oil just kills engines as it requires an overly lean tune to make any power, which usually results in guys running too lean and detonating their engines as they are always looking for more power.........I have helped thousands of people tune their engines over the years, i have heard this low nitro high oil song and dance soo many times over now its not even funny....same ole malarkey ! In the end driving skill aside I would like to see you get a engine to run our pace and sustain its lifespan running some budget low nitro high oil sport blend......aint going to happen ! your going to burn that engine down right fast !
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:58 AM
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I agree 100% with Supertib....I race and run no more than 10% oil to achieve my best tune to race with, I race oval.
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:37 AM
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I'm not gonna argue with you, tib. You're in a minority with your "more than 10% oil will make the engine hotter" and "slightly rich engines sound like four strokes" hyperbole. A higher oil fuel gives you a BROADER tuning window, and anyone who uses a lower nitro fuel and then tries to lean it out to match the performance of a higher nitro fuel is a complete moron who has no business running nitro in the first place.

I've watched plenty of pro-level racers running their 1/8 buggies. Guys that, literally, feed their families based on it. None of their engines sound anything like yours, they sound much muuuuuch closer to mine, and about half of them emit blue smoke on every corner exit. Honestly, I'm more inclined to go by what I hear coming out of their engines than what I hear coming out of yours. You eating tomorrow doesn't depend on your engine winning a race, they do, and they don't use your method.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Watch and listen. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgpKwF4FguQ[/youtube]


I dare you to walk up to Atsushi Hara and tell him he can't tune. His engines don't sound ANYTHING like yours. They sound like mine, actually, and note all the smoke coming out of that thing. He's got it tuned rich, and I'd guess he's running 12% oil or so.


You're stone dead wrong about it, but you're welcome to keep on being wrong. Trying to convince you you're wrong about something is like trying to convince a cinder block to turn into gasoline. So I'm just gonna let you continue being wrong. Meanwhile, I'll keep enjoying happy, fire-and-forget engines that make Hondas look unreliable by comparison.
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:58 AM
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Default RE: Nitro Fuel

Quote:
ORIGINAL: 378

Lolwut? More than 10% oil causes it to get hotter? The hell are you smoking?


I've told you time and again you're wrong about that. Aircraft engines don't overheat because of their 18-22% oil contents, and my car engines don't overheat because of the 15% oil fuel I run in them. If anything they don't get hot enough, I have to run with a shell on or they don't get past boiling point. They also tune in just fine, I don't have to touch my car's carb for six months. Six MONTHS on the same needle settings. And it runs like a top. Doesn't sound like a four stroke either, sounds like it's supposed to.


Ventilate your test chamber or something, bro. You're good at porting but you're sooo dead wrong about oil content. 10% oil is something only racers should be running, as it gives you NO safety zone for a lean run. Fuel line gets a pinhole leak? Engine on 15% oil is fine, just going to run a bit funny. Engine on 10% oil? It's lunched, chances are you're not going to notice it's going lean until there's serious internal damage.
I'm gonna have to agree with him... anything over 10% is not needed in a newer car engine, and makes tuning a nightmare. Plane engines are completely different. They require the extra oil because the prop keeps them from reaching a true operating temperature, same with water cooled boats. Plane engines are ported and timed differently, most of them are ABN or ringed, and they have a lower compression ratio.

Oh, "Guys that, literally, feed their families based on it.".

No, just no. These guys spend A LOT more money than they make. Professional level RC racing is just an expensive hobby for people with expendable income.

I also find it quire funny that you're comparing an unmodified OS .18 in an NTC3 to a highly modified big block in a 1/8th scale buggy.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:31 AM
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[In response to deleted posts]

My oh my.....

From "is nitro fuel getting expensive?" to what's being discussed now is well and truly a hi-jack of a thread. You guys are going to get the OP's thread locked and IMO that's not fair.

Why don't you guys start your own thread, inviting open, fair, calm and gentile discussion on the 'oil' content of fuel pros and cons? Back the posts up with hard facts and data....and hope that doesn't get locked.

ptopman has been a member for 7 months and posted all of 12 times. How does this look to him?
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: proanti1

I don't think I have ever spent more an airplane fuel. Plane engines eat everything, so I always buy the cheapest crap I can, which is usually Omega.
Omega is not cheap crap. Go to Hobby Town and buy some Patriot if you want the cheapest crap.

Last spring I paid $15.50/gal when I bought Omega 15% by the case. Have not looked at prices this year yet.
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: tommygun32

My oh my.....

From ''is nitro fuel getting expensive?'' to what's being discussed now is well and truly a hi-jack of a thread. You guys are going to get the OP's thread locked and IMO that's not fair.

Why don't you guys start your own thread, inviting open, fair, calm and gentile discussion on the 'oil' content of fuel pros and cons? Back the posts up with hard facts and data....and hope that doesn't get locked.

ptopman has been a member for 7 months and posted all of 12 times. How does this look to him?
I stopped that discussion. It's up to you guys to follow suit.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: grimbeaver

Quote:
ORIGINAL: proanti1

I don't think I have ever spent more an airplane fuel. Plane engines eat everything, so I always buy the cheapest crap I can, which is usually Omega.
Omega is not cheap crap. Go to Hobby Town and buy some Patriot if you want the cheapest crap.

Last spring I paid $15.50/gal when I bought Omega 15% by the case. Have not looked at prices this year yet.
There are a lot of veteran flyers that use omega. It's good fuel.

To put pricing in perspective; 100% pure nitro costs me $50 a gallon, methanol $2.30 a gallon and oils are $22-47 a gallon. That would make a final per gallon cost of roughly $20 for 20/12 fuel. The rest is hazmat shipping fees which is about $25 per 4gal case.
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Old 03-07-2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: 378

I'm not gonna argue with you, tib. You're in a minority with your ''more than 10% oil will make the engine hotter'' and ''slightly rich engines sound like four strokes'' hyperbole. A higher oil fuel gives you a BROADER tuning window, and anyone who uses a lower nitro fuel and then tries to lean it out to match the performance of a higher nitro fuel is a complete moron who has no business running nitro in the first place.

I've watched plenty of pro-level racers running their 1/8 buggies. Guys that, literally, feed their families based on it. None of their engines sound anything like yours, they sound much muuuuuch closer to mine, and about half of them emit blue smoke on every corner exit. Honestly, I'm more inclined to go by what I hear coming out of their engines than what I hear coming out of yours. You eating tomorrow doesn't depend on your engine winning a race, they do, and they don't use your method.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Watch and listen. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgpKwF4FguQ[/youtube]


I dare you to walk up to Atsushi Hara and tell him he can't tune. His engines don't sound ANYTHING like yours. They sound like mine, actually, and note all the smoke coming out of that thing. He's got it tuned rich, and I'd guess he's running 12% oil or so.


You're stone dead wrong about it, but you're welcome to keep on being wrong. Trying to convince you you're wrong about something is like trying to convince a cinder block to turn into gasoline. So I'm just gonna let you continue being wrong. Meanwhile, I'll keep enjoying happy, fire-and-forget engines that make Hondas look unreliable by comparison.

Your soo clueless dude it is not even funny. you have your head so far up your rectum you can't see whats right in front of you.... Why does Atushi HAra's not sound like mine ? well duh ! maybe because my engines make a pile more power and RPM...! My engine buzzes about 7000 more RPM.....

Why does my car have little smoke ? duh ! cuz I'm lean ? nope, not that !!!!! wanna take a guess genius ? ...... Well I will save you the embarrassment and not waste my time and just tell you...... My fuel uses an extremely high flashpoint oil....it does not burn out like the cheap swill you run...instead it stays around and protects the engine ...if the oil is smoking it means its burning off, and if its burning off its not protecting..... My fuel does not smoke because very little of the oil burns out....

here is some pics of my Nova's internals...this is running a 8% oil fuel...the oil inside has a consistency of air filter oil, it is sticky....this picture taken well after the engine was run..if fact this fuel lubricates soo well, it makes breakins difficult.......This fuel protects better then any low grade ,high oil sport fuel you buy off the shelf, and it runs a million times better and has a much much broader tuning window....

And chap, you couldn't be more wrong about my engines not winning races and not putting bread on my table...that couldn't be further from the truth......







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