Notices
RC Car General Discussions This forum is for all general discussions related to radio control cars. Check forums below for more specific categories if applicable.

Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

Old 05-08-2012, 10:32 AM
  #1  
Glassart007
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: , CA
Posts: 32
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

Would you have to Run 4 esc's too, and 4 packs.

Could you run 4 esc's on one pack?

Is it possible to run more than 1 motor on one esc? Please help me figure this out
What I'd like to do is use minimal packs and esc, with 4 brushless motors
Glassart007 is offline  
Old 05-08-2012, 11:07 AM
  #2  
SyCo_VeNoM
 
SyCo_VeNoM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North West Indiana
Posts: 12,789
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

yes depending on the rating of the motors/ESC's, and that of the battery
I got one RC I run dual brushed xl 2.5's on off one 30c 5200mah battery
as long as the added current draw of the motors combined isn't greater than the max output of the battery there shouldn't be any issues.
For brushed you can do dual motors on one ESC. If you don't want to control them independently. People do this on MOA crawlers. Brushless you need an ESC per motor

one thing on all but one of the ESC's you will need to disconnect the red wire going to the RX (unless you are planning on using multiple RX's) cause that can overwork the BEC's on the other ESC's and trash em.

Outta curiosity what you trying to make with 4 ESC's and motors?

I've been looking for 4 cheap brushed ESC's that are forward/reverse (no brake) for a retrofitting of a tank project I've been wanting to do. (the dual XL2.5's I mentioned were a test of how it would work)
SyCo_VeNoM is offline  
Old 05-08-2012, 11:57 AM
  #3  
Glassart007
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: , CA
Posts: 32
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

I've been kicking around the idea of an electric car with no drivetrain, using small motors mounted in each hub. No gears to eat, no driveshafts to break, etc. 
The idea hit me when the losi micros hit the market,  and was wishing my mini t was 4wd. My mini t is old now,  but I still entertain the idea. Maybe brushed would be the way to start, using mini z size motors.  Wind my own armatures, and use neo mags and higher end brushes. Need a lot of torque
Glassart007 is offline  
Old 05-08-2012, 07:30 PM
  #4  
Clmbngfrk18
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: , MA
Posts: 62
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

I like the idea but i think it would be hard. You would need a really light car for the size or oversized wheelhubs i dont see motors that would fit powering a car well. Also in a corner the diffs allow you wheels to spin at differnet speeds. Using 1 esc would be like driving with locked diffs all the time. I would love to see it done though. Even if it only goes in a straight line
Clmbngfrk18 is offline  
Old 05-08-2012, 07:34 PM
  #5  
SyCo_VeNoM
 
SyCo_VeNoM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North West Indiana
Posts: 12,789
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car


ORIGINAL: Clmbngfrk18

I like the idea but i think it would be hard. You would need a really light car for the size or oversized wheelhubs i dont see motors that would fit powering a car well. Also in a corner the diffs allow you wheels to spin at differnet speeds. Using 1 esc would be like driving with locked diffs all the time. I would love to see it done though. Even if it only goes in a straight line
even if all the diffs were locked on a RC it would still be able to turn just the turn radius is greater than if the wheels spin at diff speeds. Crawlers have locked diffs, and can turn quite fine
SyCo_VeNoM is offline  
Old 05-08-2012, 07:46 PM
  #6  
nitrosportsandrunner
 
nitrosportsandrunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: skowhegan, ME
Posts: 9,505
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car


ORIGINAL: Glassart007

I've been kicking around the idea of an electric car with no drivetrain, using small motors mounted in each hub. No gears to eat, no driveshafts to break, etc.
The idea hit me when the losi micros hit the market, and was wishing my mini t was 4wd. My mini t is old now, but I still entertain the idea. Maybe brushed would be the way to start, using mini z size motors. Wind my own armatures, and use neo mags and higher end brushes. Need a lot of torque
had the same idea float around in my head a few times.

Making a driveshaft which could go to a motor's shaft would be a trick. Would have to be a custom piece.

If you use brushed motors then you could do 2 esc's and 4 motors, either with duel motor ESC's or buy using a pair of xl-5's (or simillar) with 27-35 turn motors. These will use low enough amps that a single xl-5 can power 2 of them.

The front end would be tough. fitting 2 motors, 2 drive shafts and still having room for steering parts without having it be overly wide would be tough. A normal diff case is like 2 inches wide. You would have more than double that width with just the 2 motors.

I have thought before doing this idea as a 2wd. I have had pan cars before, which have very little drivetrain loss(and weight) due to the simple pinion/spur gearing (no gearbox/tranny)
So, in theory if one used high turn motors (2 for each rear wheel) you should be able to get good torque and insane top speed with relitivly low power ESC and battery.

The redcat Rockslide 1/8 truck uses 100t motors. In any truck with a tranny these motors wouldnt produce much speed. But if they were direct drive to the wheel then they could produce pretty good speed. 2 such motors could run off one 15t capable ESC with no problem.

Id love to see it done. The rear of the vehicle would all be pretty custom. The front could just be a rustler (or similar) chassis. No need to build the whole truck from scratch. Just cut a rustler in half....fab the motor's mounts....fab the driveshafts, suspension (maybe solid rear axle for simplicity?) and bolt it to the rustler chassis.

One could fairly easily pic out the motor. taking the rollout of the tire used, mulitply by the RPM's of the motor (figure maybe 75% of the max RPMs at 7v with no load) and then you can get a rough idea of the top speed.
nitrosportsandrunner is offline  
Old 05-08-2012, 07:49 PM
  #7  
nitrosportsandrunner
 
nitrosportsandrunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: skowhegan, ME
Posts: 9,505
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car


ORIGINAL: SyCo_VeNoM


ORIGINAL: Clmbngfrk18

I like the idea but i think it would be hard. You would need a really light car for the size or oversized wheelhubs i dont see motors that would fit powering a car well. Also in a corner the diffs allow you wheels to spin at differnet speeds. Using 1 esc would be like driving with locked diffs all the time. I would love to see it done though. Even if it only goes in a straight line
even if all the diffs were locked on a RC it would still be able to turn just the turn radius is greater than if the wheels spin at diff speeds. Crawlers have locked diffs, and can turn quite fine
^^^ very true.....
However it would not be like driving with locked diffs.
Since each motor will turn at a given RPM at a given voltage at a given LOAD.
In other words, even tho each motor will have the same voltage and has the same power....the load on each tire (which changes as the suspension moves) will allow 1 motor to turn faster/slower than the other.
It would be more like having a ball diff trans. Not fully locked...but not open either
nitrosportsandrunner is offline  
Old 05-09-2012, 03:36 AM
  #8  
phmaximus
 
phmaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 6,709
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

Everything is possibel but sounds like a bit of a wast of time...

To what advantage would it have appart from a increase in weight
phmaximus is offline  
Old 05-09-2012, 01:07 PM
  #9  
Max_Power
Senior Member
 
Max_Power's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savage, MN
Posts: 567
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

I don't know if any ground transmitters have "p-mix" like aircraft transmitters...but couldn't you actually make the outer wheels and front wheels spin faster when you commanded a turn? It would take a bit of math to program but it would seem like it could actually help the car steer better. Kinda like those cheap toy twin planes that use independent throttle control to steer in absence of a rudder. like at staright forward all motors turn at 75% throttle...when you command a left turn motors are powered : LF 50% RF 90% LR 40% RR 75% the numbers are just a example, you would have to mark the tires and count revolutions rolling around in turns to establish some formulas but one would assume you could plot a few points at different turn radius and establish a curve. I call it "Active Traction Steering Supplement" Todd
Max_Power is offline  
Old 05-09-2012, 01:35 PM
  #10  
SyCo_VeNoM
 
SyCo_VeNoM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North West Indiana
Posts: 12,789
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car


ORIGINAL: Max_Power

I don't know if any ground transmitters have ''p-mix'' like aircraft transmitters...but couldn't you actually make the outer wheels and front wheels spin faster when you commanded a turn? It would take a bit of math to program but it would seem like it could actually help the car steer better. Kinda like those cheap toy twin planes that use independent throttle control to steer in absence of a rudder. like at staright forward all motors turn at 75% throttle...when you command a left turn motors are powered : LF 50% RF 90% LR 40% RR 75% the numbers are just a example, you would have to mark the tires and count revolutions rolling around in turns to establish some formulas but one would assume you could plot a few points at different turn radius and establish a curve. I call it ''Active Traction Steering Supplement'' Todd
sounds similar to what some of the real electric cars use that have 4 independent motors
I'd assume your idea could be done with something like a cheap micro controller(and a quite a bit of programming knowledge).
SyCo_VeNoM is offline  
Old 05-09-2012, 02:48 PM
  #11  
nitrosportsandrunner
 
nitrosportsandrunner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: skowhegan, ME
Posts: 9,505
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

LOL, and RC car with symetrical AWD, sending power from the wheels that slip, to the wheels that grip

I have wondered why some of the 1:1 electric cars havent gone to a motor at each corner. I know some have been designed but none of them have been made into production models.

RC projects like this one may never yield results. Meaning it can take alot of work and not end up with a faster or better performing car. But that doesnt mean the project wont be fun.
And we all like owning a RC that is different from anything others have....thats part of the reason the hop-ups sell so well.

I know I had alot of fun doing my 1/5 scale stampede build. The end result wasnt as impressive as a brushless converted hpi baja, or a redcat rampage XBE but that didnt matter. I had built a cool truck, that was different from anything else. I get a grin on my face anytime I view a pic of that truck or watch again the vids I made of it!
nitrosportsandrunner is offline  
Old 05-09-2012, 03:33 PM
  #12  
SyCo_VeNoM
 
SyCo_VeNoM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North West Indiana
Posts: 12,789
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

ORIGINAL: nitrosportsandrunner

LOL, and RC car with symetrical AWD, sending power from the wheels that slip, to the wheels that grip

I have wondered why some of the 1:1 electric cars havent gone to a motor at each corner. I know some have been designed but none of them have been made into production models.

RC projects like this one may never yield results. Meaning it can take alot of work and not end up with a faster or better performing car. But that doesnt mean the project wont be fun.
And we all like owning a RC that is different from anything others have....thats part of the reason the hop-ups sell so well.

I know I had alot of fun doing my 1/5 scale stampede build. The end result wasnt as impressive as a brushless converted hpi baja, or a redcat rampage XBE but that didnt matter. I had built a cool truck, that was different from anything else. I get a grin on my face anytime I view a pic of that truck or watch again the vids I made of it!
and no where near as impressive as the cost of that

but yea agree its fun just to make it work, and have something you know no one else has. Where to some people enjoy making that slash over to be unique by slapping every RPM parts made for it on, and topping it off with a monster energy sticker like the other 50,000 slashes that are exactly the same
SyCo_VeNoM is offline  
Old 05-09-2012, 06:19 PM
  #13  
Glassart007
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: , CA
Posts: 32
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

Like psycho said, fun project, but not only that, you can get some good performance, and what ive seen is that unusual projects have unusual resale value, for when you're done playing with it. 
Keep the thoughts coming guys, every little helps. 
Glassart007 is offline  
Old 05-09-2012, 06:24 PM
  #14  
phmaximus
 
phmaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 6,709
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

when are the thoughts going toturn into building??
phmaximus is offline  
Old 05-10-2012, 06:56 PM
  #15  
Glassart007
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: , CA
Posts: 32
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

They've already started, so far I have an adjustable coupler that will connect motor shaft to a modded wheel shaft, and a mock up of the motor mount in front, that connects directly to the knuckle. 

Why what's your hurry?? And if you want results yesterday, throw down some scrilla. 

If you want it to go faster, wind some armatures, and give em a test with some noes in a bb can. 

And if you want it when I'm done, see you much later. 
Glassart007 is offline  
Old 05-11-2012, 05:01 AM
  #16  
phmaximus
 
phmaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 6,709
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

Cool, well it finally seems one of these projects is actually happening...

Can't say I support the idea,but hey, would be fun making it.

I'm wondering if it will have enough torque for take off with a 1:1 ratio
phmaximus is offline  
Old 05-11-2012, 06:49 AM
  #17  
DaveG55
Senior Member
 
DaveG55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stockbridge, GA
Posts: 8,275
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car


ORIGINAL: phmaximus

Everything is possibel but sounds like a bit of a wast of time...

To what advantage would it have appart from a increase in weight
Much of what is done for fun and for research is, on one hand, a tremendous waste of time and on the other hand extremely necessary.
This is after all a hobby and if this project has captured the OP's imagination and he is having fun with it then who are we to say it's wasted time.
And just because you don't see an advantage to the project does not mean there are not advantages. Personally I can see applications where independantly powered wheels would prove a distinct advantage. And if they could be coupled to a programable controler the advantages multiply rapidly. And, really, weight gain will not be all that much if done right.
DaveG55 is offline  
Old 05-11-2012, 06:06 PM
  #18  
phmaximus
 
phmaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 6,709
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car


ORIGINAL: DaveG55


ORIGINAL: phmaximus

Everything is possibel but sounds like a bit of a wast of time...

To what advantage would it have appart from a increase in weight
Much of what is done for fun and for research is, on one hand, a tremendous waste of time and on the other hand extremely necessary.
This is after all a hobby and if this project has captured the OP's imagination and he is having fun with it then who are we to say it's wasted time.
And just because you don't see an advantage to the project does not mean there are not advantages. Personally I can see applications where independantly powered wheels would prove a distinct advantage. And if they could be coupled to a programable controler the advantages multiply rapidly. And, really, weight gain will not be all that much if done right.
ok... Why are u having a go at me?
IMO im not to sure how a 1:1 gearbox ratio is doing to work, would have to be some big motors on small wheels.... but ive never tested that personally
All i think its going to need 4 motors & gearboxes, and correct me if im wrong I allways thought per weight the smaller motors are not as efficent as say a big motor in a standard r/c car then the added weight of 4 small gearboxes....
I would even say I highly doubt this is the first time someone has tryed this..

Look it wouldent be that hard to do just get some tamiya tank gearboxes

Just wondering can u list some of the advantages it would have on a race track? or even carpark bashing?
phmaximus is offline  
Old 05-12-2012, 09:26 AM
  #19  
DaveG55
Senior Member
 
DaveG55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stockbridge, GA
Posts: 8,275
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

Having a go at you?? Not so much really. It's just that your posts sounded so down on the OP and his ideas and I just think that the whole wasted time thing is so subjective...
There are just so many things we have today because someone said "What if" and then tried to do it... All while someone else said "What a waste of time".
I just don't understand how anyone in the hobby can call any part of it a waste of time when, for the most part, the world considers the whole hobby just a bunch of toys and a waste of an adults time, kind of a pot & kettle thing really...

Personally, I don't think I'd use any gear boxes. I'd go straight to the wheels with the motor shaft. I'm not an engineer but I don't see the usefullness of a 1:1 gear box in this application. And losing any gear boxes/diffs should be about a wash on weight.
Advantages? Well, off the top of my head, I'd think that independantly controled wheels would promote greater traction and control in turns, especially if a programable controler was used. Maybe even just a more sophisticated radio system with multiple channels and mixing would work. It should also be possable to either compensate for or fine tune suspension weaknesses for individual tracks. For rock crawling I could see where it would be a big advantage to be able to apply controled power to a single, or multiple wheels.
DaveG55 is offline  
Old 05-12-2012, 09:38 AM
  #20  
SyCo_VeNoM
 
SyCo_VeNoM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North West Indiana
Posts: 12,789
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car


ORIGINAL: DaveG55

Having a go at you?? Not so much really. It's just that your posts sounded so down on the OP and his ideas and I just think that the whole wasted time thing is so subjective...
There are just so many things we have today because someone said ''What if'' and then tried to do it... All while someone else said ''What a waste of time''.
I just don't understand how anyone in the hobby can call any part of it a waste of time when, for the most part, the world considers the whole hobby just a bunch of toys and a waste of an adults time, kind of a pot & kettle thing really...

Personally, I don't think I'd use any gear boxes. I'd go straight to the wheels with the motor shaft. I'm not an engineer but I don't see the usefullness of a 1:1 gear box in this application. And losing any gear boxes/diffs should be about a wash on weight.
Advantages? Well, off the top of my head, I'd think that independantly controled wheels would promote greater traction and control in turns, especially if a programable controler was used. Maybe even just a more sophisticated radio system with multiple channels and mixing would work. It should also be possable to either compensate for or fine tune suspension weaknesses for individual tracks. For rock crawling I could see where it would be a big advantage to be able to apply controled power to a single, or multiple wheels.
pretty much what I was thinking when he said it was a waste of time lol
I've had a few ppl tell me RC's were a complete waste of time, then I usually counter by bringing up stuff they do that wastes even more time but gives them no useful skills in other facets of life
SyCo_VeNoM is offline  
Old 05-12-2012, 02:10 PM
  #21  
phmaximus
 
phmaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Adelaide, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 6,709
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

Well only time will tell, if it works great, if not well....
When it's complete maby then we should debat it, I've seen these "great ideas" before bases on forum history there is a higher chance of it not been completed. But hey I would love to see one made,
I just don't see it been practical, or even working. But that's a great challenge for the OP, prove me wrong...

Do we have to keep debating my opinions, here they are in more detail, If it doesn't work or never gets completed then it's a wast of time, I highly doubt this is the first time it's ever been tried and I doubt a 1:1 drive with brushed motors will be able to crawl.

Well let's hear more about the finer details, what size wheels, and what brushed motor that will have enough torque for 1:1 drive and the right rmp range,


Side note, I've done something very similar with a ride on car, it was 2wd and motor and gearbox on both rear wheels, then I added 2 more on the front, dident keep them there, it was actually slower and nearly impossible for the kids to steer it. Yeah it was fun making but the end result gave me the......s.



So u could nearly say i bet u to it... just never fitted radio gear

this one was remote controlled
phmaximus is offline  
Old 05-12-2012, 03:49 PM
  #22  
DaveG55
Senior Member
 
DaveG55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stockbridge, GA
Posts: 8,275
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

Failures can be every bit as enlightening as successes. Not as satisfying but hopefully every failure teaches you something.
Just look at WD 40, it's very name tells of 39 failures...
DaveG55 is offline  
Old 05-12-2012, 04:02 PM
  #23  
SyCo_VeNoM
 
SyCo_VeNoM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North West Indiana
Posts: 12,789
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car


ORIGINAL: DaveG55

Failures can be every bit as enlightening as successes. Not as satisfying but hopefully every failure teaches you something.
Just look at WD 40, it's very name tells of 39 failures...
agree
Hell look at my custom RCs I have like 3-4 complete failures that I ended up scrapping completely, and a few successes. I applied what I learned on the failures to make the later ones successful, and if I didn't make the 1st few failures then the later custom rigs wouldn't have came out as they did. So as long as you learn something even failures are not really failures IMO only time its a complete failure is if you didn't take anything at all away from it.
SyCo_VeNoM is offline  
Old 05-14-2012, 04:59 AM
  #24  
cumquat
Senior Member
 
cumquat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 6,812
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car

i had this same idea. i had the idea of using outrunners as they have a low profile and are supposed to produce more torque than any standard 540 or 550 size motor. from what i pieced together looking into building mine, something around 400kv should work. with a 2.5" tire on 4s, it'd be going about 44mph and i imagine that 4 of them would have enough torque to get 3 or so pounds moving with little issue. only reason i havent built mine is because i dont have the money for the motors and ESCs i was looking at yet.
cumquat is offline  
Old 05-14-2012, 07:44 AM
  #25  
The_Shark
Senior Member
 
The_Shark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Plainfield, IL
Posts: 7,163
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Is it possible to run 4 motors in a car


ORIGINAL: cumquat

i had this same idea. i had the idea of using outrunners as they have a low profile and are supposed to produce more torque than any standard 540 or 550 size motor. from what i pieced together looking into building mine, something around 400kv should work. with a 2.5'' tire on 4s, it'd be going about 44mph and i imagine that 4 of them would have enough torque to get 3 or so pounds moving with little issue. only reason i havent built mine is because i dont have the money for the motors and ESCs i was looking at yet.
out-runners are my deal! very powerful, very efficient and run very cool. a 450/500 heli motor eats the same power as a hot 540 inrunner but has the footprint the size of a 380 inrunner and has a 3.17 540 sized shaft.

check hobbyking, my 4400KV was $12 and they have nearly any Kv and size availible.
The_Shark is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.