HerrSavage

OK, this seems to be a winter for these kinds of threads. So here goes..

I recently sold my RC8.2, luckily - for a not too awful price. Though I still had to eat probably €200 to sell it.. But the reality is, I was lucky to find someone at all.

Part of my thinking was, I finally need to just try a Mugen. Was going to get an MBX6R EU, but the more I read about the MBX7, the more I thought, if you're going to be a bear... A Mugen MBX7 would cost €525 just for the kit. Add in a few spare arms and two sets of tires, and you're at €600 easy. Engines and servos I have.. Getting a Mugen though requires having spares on hand of yet another brand..

I recently got a TT MT4 G3 - my first brushless. So far I really quite like it. Good fun, parts are widely available and cheap(and in some cases - diffs anyway, identical with those in my RC8T and SC8), etc.. I just made a big order of spares for my RC8T and MT4 - so sorted really - especially on diffs..

A big part of my RC thinking in general is that I just can't make the commitment for racing that is required - at least here in Germany. A lot of people show up to races Friday afternoon, and are then at the track ALL day Saturday and Sunday. Even though in the last couple of years a regional series started where it is theoretically possible to just show up Sunday morning(with no practice for set up etc..) Whatever.., it's still too much. Even at the local track. %90 of the races require a one to two hour drive on top of all that.. When you show up at a race here, the parking lot is FULL of RV/mobile RC garages's...... I'm not buying an RV.

Anyway, as I've been mulling over the idea(and cost) of getting the Mugen, I decided to take a look at the TT EB4 G3 - the cheap sister buggy to the MT4 G3. The price, including 4s Reedy lipo(same which I have two of for my MT4..), would be €380 shipped.., RTR. It would share the diffs(also with the AE's), chassis, motor, and some other stuff with my MT4. Obviously the EB4 is no Mugen. But I eventually arrived at the question - who needs a €1000 race buggy?

Not me - and honestly, not most people - at least at RCU. Which also made me think about value in RC in general. If you pay attention to race forums, you can really see how sucked in people get.. "When's the new model coming out?" This kind of question - preposterously - often surfaces three to six months after the current one is released. A couple years ago I guess, the chassis' on buggies started getting really narrow. The MBX7? Wider chassis than the 6... AE is supposedly working on an RC8.3 - I'll have to laugh if the chassis is wider than on the RC8.2.. Wouldn't surprise me though. The conclusion I'm coming to is that the high-end buggy market is a racket, and it thrives basically on suckers addicted to novelty. The MBX7 is a beautiful buggy, and it did just win the Worlds.. But am I going to win the Worlds?..... I would add here, I have come to the conclusion that Mugen is the only new brand of high-end buggy I would buy. And the reason is not the quality(which of course is meant to be great) - the reason is resale value. The Worlds' win just gave that a shot in the arm too.

There is another aspect to value in RC - a psychological one to do with cost. If you have a $1200 toy car, you're going to treat it, run it, and think about it differently than if it were a $500 RC. For me anyway, I'm more careful, maybe don't run it as much - because the whole time you're thinking, the more I run it, the less valuable it becomes. With the cheaper RC's, you KNOW it's cheap, and that you won't be able to sell it for much, so you just run it and have fun with it.. Part of this is just knowing you got a deal. Makes everything feel better.

Of course everybody has a different budget. And there's nothing wrong with people laying out big bucks to have a top-end RC. Even if people want to invest two grand in a shelf-queen Savage or Revo - more power to them. It's their money. I do think though there are other people out there, who, when it comes to thinking about what RC to buy, feel like they have to spend way more money than is necessary. I have been one of those for a few years now ha ha... But - and this is oft-repeated, even if you take racing seriously - buying a Mugen is not going to make you into a champion driver. Making that kind of investment though will carry with a certain amount of psychological pressure, which will probably lead you to taking racing far more seriously.. Which is why IMO racing is so lame and humorless.. If you have two grand invested in your junk, then I guess drilling shock pistons becomes an activity of particular interest.....

Anyway, in the last few days I came to a conclusion. I'm going to get a TT EB4 G3, and forget about my Mugen (particularly, and high-end RC generally..) dreams. I don't need a Mugen.. What I need is to have fun, and it's easier to do that with the clearer conscious that comes with having bought something for less than half the price, which is still robust and possible to have a lot of fun with, and if I smash it up, I have plenty of parts for... So that was the weird realization that I've to come to - there can be a point where it makes sense to go down-market in RC. No, the prestige isn't there. But the value is. And that's the point. I mean, IMO anyway, it is seriously retarded to get too wrapped up in the prestige anyway. We are talking toy cars here.. Value for you is what matters, not value as seen through other peoples' eyes... But it's an easy trap to fall into - feeling like you have to have "the best".. But a trap it is.

So yes, that was a (half-awake, early-morning, pre-coffee) ramble.. But there's a point in there somewhere.

Foxy

You should experience putting an Xray kit together, Mugen are good, but Xray more fun to build and look at.

I think you made a good choice going for the TTR, it will have some common parts, its easily as good if not better than the Ultra LX2 which is just about its only competition at the price point.

HerrSavage

I always hear that about X-ray, and believe it. Though I don't hear too many rave reviews about the XB9 to be honest..

But really, X-ray - as nice as they surely are - is one of those brands that just doesn't make a lot of sense for somebody like me. If you have the budget (my budget I admit is more dedicated to quantity than quality - but there is quality in quantity I would argue..) If money were no object I'd have one, but not when it would cost as much as it would.. I do think X-ray is close behind Mugen though in terms of value for the money.. Though I see used XB9's going cheap.. I think with the Worlds' win Mugen took a huge leap forward, leaving X-ray behind a bit..

There are a lot of very cool new buggies out right now - JQ, S Workz, Intech BR6 - and that new RB buggy is especially sexy... But all of them would be money pits basically..

For me, if I want to race I have my nitro RC8T. I don't really want to race nitro buggy I think(well I do, but...) What I want is to have something that I can run on the track for fun when I take my truggy.. The MT4 is not quite it - I want to keep the big basher tires on it, and basically use it for messing around at the park.. I really want to have a buggy in my collection though... So back to trying to sell my DM-1's and an LST2 to make room for one...

HerrSavage

Just occurred to me too - this whole thing about value applies in precisely the same way to bashing.

"Should I get an E-revo or a Savage Flux?" - how often do you see those threads?

And the answer of course, for all of the reasons outlined(sort of..) above - is TT MT4 G3.

Fair enough - some people just want to spend money on blingy Integy aluminum stuff - so more power to them.. But often I think those people have a very flawed sense of value. If bashing is what you want to do, then the MT4 really does seem to me to be the best value...

But you can really see how perception works in the market - gotta' be a Savage or Revo.. I find it kind of funny how all these guys doing unboxings and reviews on youtube of TT stuff are like "well I never even heard of TT"..., looking at it like it's some kind of alien.. Cuz all they know is Traxxas.. You see that a lot.

Part of what got me thinking about this was a "what buggy for 2013?" thread on a German forum. You see all these buggies, nitros with Speeds and electrics with Tekin this and that, all stuff with huge price tags.. And I know some of these guys don't race or even know how to drive very well. But they are full-on convinced that having all this top of the line stuff has some meaning.. And I just don't think it does. My opinion of course, and opinions differ, but in six months to a year they'll all be lining up to sell their now-outdated stuff to get the next best thing, and the loss in value will be huge..

Haddi Taha

the funny thing is that I always thought traxxas cars look strange especially with the funny grey plastic

phmaximus

Value is everything, And i totally agree about getting sucked in.

Look at all the crazy upgrades that in theroy are better, but offer no noticeable difference in preformance.

Ive got a losi 8ight, and im very doubtfull a xray XB9 or MBX7 is going to make me faster. All its going to do is make my ego bigger.

IMO this is the best value RC car in history $129 HBX Max & free postage....

[link=http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1-10-Radio-Control-4WD-HBX-MAX-RC-Racing-Off-Road-Buggy-/170670987648?pt=AU_Toys_Hobbies_Radio_Controlled_V ehicles&hash=item27bcc89980]HBX Max Buggy[/link]

Its based on a Tamiya TL01B Baja King. but they have improved on Tamiya design and included a few upgrades, stronger revised chassis, revised suspension arms, adjustable turnbuckles, ballbearings fitted, extended shock towers, oil filled shocks, motor heatsink, revised body, revised wheels and tyres.

As well as that its 99.9% compatable with the orgianal Tamiya tl01b and all the genuine tamiya upgrades (aside from the Idler gear shaft).

slap a exrun 35a combo and a 3s lipo and these things are just mental....

Haddi Taha

When the TTR MT4 was first released, you could find them for $450 if your lucky on ebay but they decided to change the part number, downgrade the radio and jack the price up

mattster1971

I made that whole 'shelf queen' mistake with my Jato, upgrading everything I could to integy aluminum just because I wanted it to look super cool with all the blue and didn't even think about the effect of the heavier weight on the stock gearing or ride. I learned the hard way and now I rarely run it because I have so much invested in a stupid 1/10th ST and I don't want to damage it. I don't have money to burn and I have to think about that whenever I look at models. I got a couple hyper 7s because all I do is bash and they are truely good bashers. I don't have a decent track anywhere near me so its a mute point anyway.

supertib

over the years I have decided that the best value in RC is usually the higher priced gear......... to me the higher quality, durability and performance are more then worth the extra price you pay.............. I Also find in the long run Novarossi and OS engines to offer better value then Go or Alpha type engines.........I use my gear very frequently and I run my gear very hard...... the cheaper equipment just ends up letting me down and it kills off any value in the money I initially saved........But most her probably dont run their gear as hard as I run mine...for what I do there is no other option but to buy the higher end gear, as it is the only gear that will hold up to what I want to do.....

HerrSavage

I disagree completely.. And I run my gear hard, and do as little maintenance as is strictly necessary.

Nobody needs a $500 modded Novarossi.. Are they nice? Sure.. But only for the very deep of pocket..

It's still the same point I've always made about LRP's for bashers too - $105 for a Losi 454 is all you need(saw a link recently with that as a buy-new price..) Why pay nearly double for a Picco? That conversation has been had, and I stand by everything I've ever said. Picco's are no doubt good, but I don't think they're going to be that much better - more hassle to mount in some cases(need to dremel chassis or raise mounts in an LST2, they have a weird Picco-specific gasket for ex.), longer more temperamental break-in, narrower tuning window, only this or that plug, etc etc.. Also, having paid more, and ordered special plugs, taken more time and care on the break-in, etc.., I'll be more hemmed in and careful about how I run it. With a $130 Dynamite Big Red, six tanks of heat cycling, a McCoy, OS, Odonnell or whatever plug, and a stock pipe.., and off you go.. If you have half a clue it'll make %85 the power of the Picco, and last just as long. Yes - just as long.

(assuming no maintenance on either..)

It's all about the effect of diminishing returns.

If all this were plotted on a curve somehow, price being y(vertical), performance/speed/power/etc.. being x(horizontal), the line would just quickly go nearly vertical on price, with not much movement to the right - i.e. very much diminishing gains in performance for the money spent.. Of course a $500 modded Novarossi is better than a $150 Go, but it's not that much better. Of course you'll say that though - it's what you're selling.

Mattster1971, a Hyper 7 is a perfect case in point. Good quality, reliable, and tough.. - and most importantly, affordable. If you let yourself get sucked into the vortex though, you could easily end up being made to feel that you have to spend triple that on say, a new Mugen - and nice though the Mugen would be, it wouldn't be three times as nice. And as I said, Mugen IMHO is kind of an exception. If we're talking AE, Losi, X-ray, or any of these other small but still nice and top-of-the-line race brands(Sworkz, JQ, Intech, Hong Nor, Agama, Durango, etc etc..), they would release a new model in 6-8 months, killing at least part of the value of your investment. Meanwhile you can thrash your Hyper 7 and not give a shxx about what people think.. As long as the Hyper 7 serves your needs, it's the right car for you.. And that's my point - the right car for you is your own personal thing - not what other people think is best, or even what costs more. You let yourself get sucked into all that, and you're just throwing away money.

Note: what I am saying is NOT "buy cheap". What I am saying is "don't buy more expensive than is really necessary". Or even more to the point - "don't let yourself get peer-pressured and sucked into the vortex of being made to feel like you HAVE to pay for the very best".. Yes, often you have to pay more to get more*, but it's more complicated than that, due mostly to the effect of diminishing returns. If you have a Hyper 7, you already have a good RC, and not some toy from a toystore. Beyond that it's very relative..

* IMHO this applies mostly to servos, but even that may have changed over the years - I haven't bought new cheapo servos in 3-4 years.. I saw some on hobbying recently with quite impressive stats for dirt cheap. For all I know they might be alright.. Servos, radios.. - a lot of that stuff, beyond a certain point(servos in my experience need to be a bit more expensive if you want ones that last..) is just dumb in my opinion.. But people buy them all the time.. - thanks to good marketing and hype-generation.. I don't need $150 HV servos along with a Futaba 4PK or whatever it's called.., and I don't think most other people do either.

supertib

I dont give a dam if you agree or not...........cheap stuff falls apart.......and yeah a Go only lasts me 2 gallons till the crank is shot, so whats the point ? A Nova crank goes 30 gallons.........big difference...

And dude judging from your videos you dont push them anywhere remotely close to how we push them.....

your a cheap ass and want to just justify your cheap ass ways.....love to see you try to run our circuit here with cheap gear....you would back of the pack and broken !

HerrSavage

I must say, I knew this was coming..

First, you don't run your stuff that hard. You don't jump or go for big air. You run laps around a track, and do some high-speed passes back and forth on the tundra or whatever. Big whoop.. You also have an RC "business" with no need to think about having to pay for things.

And frankly, you are one of the very worst when it comes to pressuring people to feel like they have to spend far more than they do. It's really no wonder that you would write something in this thread - it's contrary to everything your obnoxious cooler-than-you (well, my-toy-car-is-cooler-than-your-toy-car anyway..) attitude stands for... - which is of course also your sales pitch.

Again (for the millionth time..), why are you even here at RCU, a forum full of clueless newbs as far as you're concerned?

Your whole schpiel just boils down to yelling at people that if they don't run mega-expensive stuff - the mega-expensive stuff you sell of course - that it's junk. That's all you're about. And the tons of trash-talking of course directed at anyone who doesn't agree with you or kiss your axx...

On2_n_On4

HERE WE GO AGAIN [:-]

supertib

I have taken big air thousands of times.........We ran a giant triple for a entire season that launched the cars 15' high and 45' distance landing on rock hard clay.................a LST came out and went home in a duffel bag as the dam truck broke into 2 separate pieces........This last season not so much big air, but that will change again this season..........a cheap car,engine and servos will handle the punishment we put onto these machines.........

There are plenty of guys at our track who felt the same way you do....However once they race for a bit and see their gear fail race after race after race they finally concede that racing pounds the hell out of the cars and that there really is no option but to run proper race gear.....cheap gear does not hold up to what we do........argue all you want but your whislin dixxie as you have never raced on anything remotely resembling a North American track with real jumps.....You have raced what 3 times your entire life ? and your arrogant enough to come here and tell me what works and what doesn't ? get overt yourself dude !!!!

SyCo_VeNoM

well the tt mt4-g3 vs revo yea I can see get a MT4 instead as they are similar setups as ones a glorified ST with MT tires, and the other is a truggy with MT tires so similar setups, but the mt4 has a way better design, and costs a lot less.

saying mt4 over savage though is harder cause some people like the lanky high COG TVP design vs the truggy with MT tires setup.
I have a truggy with MT tires, and I have a savage personally I don't try and compare the 2 as they drive completely different.

HerrSavage

I've never not finished a race(maybe 10-12 all up, just talking organized buggy and truggy races..) - or a day at the track even really, due to breakage.. Bashing is something else - because impact-wise bashing is harder on RC's than racing. Associated has pretty bullet-proof diffs, so no problems there. No broken arms really either - but hey, it's not a Mugen.. (note to others - Mugens are known for breaking front A-arms, and have been for years now.. Still great RC's, but not flawless either..)

Syco, I hear you on the Savage. I actually like the way they drive - I like the challenge - it's fun. And nitro anyway, I do actually believe an RTR 4.6 is a good first RC. But man when I see what a new Flux costs, and how more and more people seem to talk about durability issues (especially the mini one.. but not only the mini), I just don't think I'd want to go there, when I can have the MT4 so much cheaper, which will do all the same things, and in some cases better. And it seems most people put big ole' MT bodies on them anyway, so with that and the stock tires they look like MT's whatever the case..

I just found an even cheaper deal btw on an EB4 G3.. Amazing what you get in some of these TT RTR's.. Have also heard a few very positive comments about them - in both international and German forums - and no, not from newbs.. Some people actually even race them apparently...

The Collector1

My Feedback: (2)

I know you said you sold your 8.2, Im curious you didnt like it? Just curious.

HerrSavage

I think, for me, it was probably fine as a racer.. But with there already being talk of an RC8.3, and no races coming up for several months, part of the reason at least was just to sell it while I could for a decent price and recoup as much of the cost as I could. I had intended to do a few more races last year, but several things just got in the way - was sick a couple times(I actually fought through and went out and ran one measly qualifier with a blown-out disc in my back at one point, but had to give up on going back the next day..), family visits/obligations, work, weather(at least twice), etc..

I was also a bit put off by the fact that they changed some things, making most of my stockpile of AE spare parts irrelevant for it. Different cups front to back for ex., different arms, shorter front shocks, different CVD's, etc etc.. So had I decided to push through and keep it this year, I would have been looking at having to stock up on even more new parts.. To be honest I'd rather have an RC8B..

Also, I just got sick of the winter and decided to try a brushless for messing around in the park. So I got the MT4 G3. Selling the RC8.2 was just to make up for that a bit..

The RC8.2 is probably fine for most club racers though. Just never go to the "other" thread and look for any info about it.. There you'll just find 400 pgs. of talk of what Frankenmods people run - Avid this, Ghea that, Hot Bodies bits, Kyosho shocks, which shock pistons, etc.. All of which partially led me to conclude that the RC8.2 was just not ideal for somebody like me, who wants to have something more neutral. And for that almost everybody says Mugen is the brand to go with.. Which was my plan, til I arrived at the above conclusions.. I've been very close to pulling the trigger on a Mugen on a couple of occasions, but the whole über-serious and -expensive racing scene and racket of constant updates and novelty obsession just got on my nerves..

Haddi Taha

I can't believe they will make a rc8.3 already, the rc8.2e only came out last year. I hope it has minor revisions because it will suck for everyone who just bought a rc8.2e thinking it was the greatest, latest 8 scale buggy from team associated

blacorebea

I actually like the way they drive - I like the challenge - it's fun.

JohnP2

This is an interesting thread....thanks for posting. I can't however, fully agree with your example above.

I'll respondwith my perspective. I've taken my Hyper 7 to the track on a few occassions. It's well documented how I feel about the Hyper 7. In fact, if I could only keep ONE vehicle, that might very well be the one. However, I had an eye-opening experience of epic proportions the first time I brought the Hyper 7 to my track. I understand driving skills matter, but I also witnessed first hand the sheer difference in the MP9s, 8.2s, (and yes the Mugens) running OS and Nova engines that simply made my Hyper 7 stand out....in an inferior way. I do agree with how easy it is to get suckered in (MBX7s are flying off the shelf at my track), howeverthere is a difference. Could Tessman spank me if he drove a Hyper 7 and I anMBX7? Of course. There are not many Tessman's at mytrack, however.

Now, if I had zero interest in racing, I probably would not be looking at thehigher-end cars.However, for me personally,as long as I see a tangible difference in "expensive" gear, I imagine I'll keep upgrading. Once I hit thatplateau (and I know I will),then I'll probably be closer toward your experience level and can delineate from a DS8 and a DS12. However, as new as I am to "the hobby", I personally can see a vast difference in a Hyper 7 running a Mac* .28 compared to a Mugen buggy running a Bonito - on the track at least. When it comes to flat out bashing, then yes, stock vs stock, I'll put the Hyper 7 up against anything. I hope that makes sense.

p.s. A bit disappointed you going electric. Ha!Is Duratrax very big in Germany? They have somemid-marketnitro vehicles that I've always found intriguiing. Not sure why, but I don't hear of them often. Also something like the HPI Pulse of D8S seem to be good mid-market nitro buggies.

Haddi Taha

I don't think herrsavage is going full electric, deep inside he is a nitro maniac. He wanted something he could run close to where he lives. 

HerrSavage

Definitely not "going (all) electric".. My main RC is my RC8T, and I have five engine/pipe combos for it.. Also two nitro LST2's..(I decided converting one would be stupid..), an SC8, and a DM-1.. So, currently five nitros and one electric, and if I get the EB4, two electrics, and hopefully two of the older nitros sold.. So everything would still be overwhelmingly nitro.

I am getting kind of an itchy throttle finger to burn some nitro actually.. Miss the sound and feel. I really freakin' hate winter.

Mugens and all that are great, but it seems to me, if you want to take it to that level financially, you have to be cool taking it to that level psychologically - long term too, and to me it just seems that level is way too serious and saps too much fun out of it. I don't claim to be the most experienced racer or anything - not by a long shot. I DO know though that racing is just more expensive and time- and effort- consuming than maybe you yet realize. How many people are really ready to commit to that long-term? Some, sure.. But IMO it's a very small number - I think there are a lot of people who really splash out on high-end stuff(this actually applies to racing as well as bashing..), only to end up selling it all at a huge loss to "get out"(as you see written in so many for sale threads/ads), and part of the reason is that they were just in too deep financially, and the pressure of having spent two grand on a toy car will kill some of the fun for lots of people.. The worst is people who hung on too long, so that their €2000 gear is two or three generations old, so now they really won't get much of that back..(Mugen MBX5, anyone?.. "Unused, VSPEC, all the goodies, only asking $1000....") I've been around for a while now in RC, constantly active, and I see it all the time.. Hell, these people are often where the good deals come from.. And remember, seeing this buggy thread with all these kids who don't even race loaded up with Tekin stuff, HV servos and all the rest is part of what got me thinking about all this.. Here they are with their €1200 electric picture-book e-buggies, but having spent so much, they're barely going to run them.. Why not get an EB4 for a third of the price and thrash it and have some fun?..

Also, people just have different circumstances. If you live up the road from a nice track in a nice climate with good people, hey, I would have a different outlook.. But here anyway, it just requires a massive amount of effort and commitment, which sucks some of the fun away. Also( you'll see...), the pressure never lets up to have the newest and greatest stuff once you get sucked into racing. Soon it won't be enough to have a Mugen and a Novarossi, because you'll see the guy at the next pit table with a second Mugen kit under the table for parts, with a spare Novarossi.., and eight sets of tires, etc etc.. Just look at all the MBX6R's for sale now, barely used, with tons of extras, being sold for nothing.. But hey, gotta' have the 7... (And here in Germany anyway, an RV/mobile RC garage..., and thousands of Euros a year for €1,60 a liter fuel for it..)

All of that cumulatively would just take me to a place anyway where the time, effort, money - and now the realization afaic that it's all just a big racket to make money off the "new" versions every year, as if the new "developments" are earth-shattering meaningful breakthroughs, would kill too much of the fun.. Just my opinion of course.. Everybody's got different circumstances and will see things differently..

Haddi Taha

I wish a track will open nearby, I will go there every week and race for fun 

HerrSavage

Very much with you there about durability.

It's interesting to observe the trend in MT4 forums of people building up race truggies with huge MT wheels etc.. Mostly it's cheap D8T's and 8T 2.0's, and done smartly it can be a good route I think - for those with bigger budgets and more experience. But even then mods are apparently necessary(Tekno this or that)and the price is still considerably higher.. - both building and maintaining.. But still, honestly.., building up a mega basher like thatnis cheap compared to regular, organized racing..