Nitro questions
02-23-2015, 06:00 PM
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Nitro questions
Hey gang, I'm new to the site and thinking of getting back into RC after a 15-20yr hiatus now that my sons are old enough to get into it. The hobby has advanced so much that I feel like a newbie again. All of my experience is in electric (old electric) but I'm leaning towards nitro now. I have about a $250-350 budget and have been looking and trying to learn but I have a few questions.....
- Are nitros the same with maintenance expenses as electric?
- what should I look for in a buggy? (They're what I'm leaning towards)
- Are the Exceed buggy's a good entry car? (I'm leaning towards the 1/8th Madfire but also keeping the 1/10th Forza as an option)
- What else would I need to start out with? (i.e. Electric starter, extra glow plug, etc.)
Thanks for your input and any suggestions!
- Are nitros the same with maintenance expenses as electric?
- what should I look for in a buggy? (They're what I'm leaning towards)
- Are the Exceed buggy's a good entry car? (I'm leaning towards the 1/8th Madfire but also keeping the 1/10th Forza as an option)
- What else would I need to start out with? (i.e. Electric starter, extra glow plug, etc.)
Thanks for your input and any suggestions!
02-23-2015, 08:49 PM
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Nitros are a little more maintenance upkeep than electric, mainly because of the fuel to oil seperation, causes the car itself to become VERY oily, and will need to be cleaned every so often.
Buggy's are my favorite, I would recommend looking into an XTM buggy; why? Cheap to buy, cheap to repair, cheap to upgrade.
Exceed is one of the cheapest brands to start with, though they are probably one of the worst, from my understanding and experience their customer service isn't very well either, for a good entry or beginner car, I'd recommend looking into Redcat Racing or XTM, they are both cheap brands, but they are pretty decent in bang for buck. Cen Racing is good as-well.
I would recommend purchasing a Starter kit, look for a super starter, should come with 12 aa batteries, fuel, fuel bottle, rc stand, tuning screwdriver, phillips driver, two T tools, and glow plug igniter; I'd also recommend purchasing MULTIPLE spare glowplugs, when I first started in the sport I blew PLENTY of glowplugs because of my lack of understanding.
Goodluck with your ventures, hope to see you around RCU more!
Kyle
Buggy's are my favorite, I would recommend looking into an XTM buggy; why? Cheap to buy, cheap to repair, cheap to upgrade.
Exceed is one of the cheapest brands to start with, though they are probably one of the worst, from my understanding and experience their customer service isn't very well either, for a good entry or beginner car, I'd recommend looking into Redcat Racing or XTM, they are both cheap brands, but they are pretty decent in bang for buck. Cen Racing is good as-well.
I would recommend purchasing a Starter kit, look for a super starter, should come with 12 aa batteries, fuel, fuel bottle, rc stand, tuning screwdriver, phillips driver, two T tools, and glow plug igniter; I'd also recommend purchasing MULTIPLE spare glowplugs, when I first started in the sport I blew PLENTY of glowplugs because of my lack of understanding.
Goodluck with your ventures, hope to see you around RCU more!
Kyle
02-24-2015, 07:47 AM
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I have been in and around the rc stuff but never into it completely and I have found nitro takes more time but I feel electric takes more money. Mainly because batteries are expensive and so are decent chargers. I'm the best with nitro but I haven't burned up any go plugs in my new savage but in my old tmaxx I never got it running right. I really do like the nitro for the sound and the smell. With the e electric you can run it and go to dinner in the clothes you wered wearing. With nitro you run it then change and maybe take a shower because it seems like the smell sticks with you. Just my experience and battery prices are coming down with lipo stuff now.
02-24-2015, 01:49 PM
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Thanks for the reply FirstGen. If the Exceed cars are that bad then it looks like I'm waiting to get one. I have a strict budget that I'm sticking to and anything else I've came across is a minimum of $100 more. Having a wife, house and 2 kids does that to you....lol
02-24-2015, 05:55 PM
#5
I'd consider looking into electric... The advances over the last 10 years is amazing.
Here is an example... 7 years ago I brought a slash
6 years ago I converted it to brushless with a ezrun $85 brushless combo....$15 imax b6 digital charger (clone(
To this day it's still going strong but I've gone through about 5 $30 2s lipos batteries over the years....
so so what im getting at is they are very cheap.... Over 6-7 years I spent only $250
no way a nitro would be that cheap to buy, run and maintain for 6-7 years.
so the point I'm trying to make.... With all the advanced in the technologhy it's made it very affordable it's only when u start looking at 1/8 brushless combos does it start getting expensive.
Here is an example... 7 years ago I brought a slash
6 years ago I converted it to brushless with a ezrun $85 brushless combo....$15 imax b6 digital charger (clone(
To this day it's still going strong but I've gone through about 5 $30 2s lipos batteries over the years....
so so what im getting at is they are very cheap.... Over 6-7 years I spent only $250
no way a nitro would be that cheap to buy, run and maintain for 6-7 years.
so the point I'm trying to make.... With all the advanced in the technologhy it's made it very affordable it's only when u start looking at 1/8 brushless combos does it start getting expensive.
02-25-2015, 02:03 AM
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I agree with Phmaximum, you can find some awfully cheap electrics; However, with a budget of $100 you will possibly get a high-end toy grade, or a very very low-end hobby grade car.
I understand the struggle my friend, I own a home, have three kids, 6 cars, and my wife. So I don't have as much time for RC anymore, but I'm managing. I recommend doing what I did, taking a small chunk of your paycheck, 10? 20? $30. A week, however much you feel comfortable with, and setting it aside for savings. It will take some time of course, but instead of wasting $150 on a cheap nitro that is generally pretty slow and will last you what? 2-3 months.
You can save and buy a big name brand, like Traxxas, HPI, Losi, Associated, even Tamiya makes some good cars.
As Phmaximum said electric will be just as fun as nitro without the hassle of cleaning, or refueling. Just recharge some LiPo batteries and you're good to go. From my understanding, some electrics are just as fast, if not faster than nitro cars. I've also heard the Traxxas E-REVO is a pretty good starter car. But don't take too much information from me, I've always been pretty big in Nitro.
I understand the struggle my friend, I own a home, have three kids, 6 cars, and my wife. So I don't have as much time for RC anymore, but I'm managing. I recommend doing what I did, taking a small chunk of your paycheck, 10? 20? $30. A week, however much you feel comfortable with, and setting it aside for savings. It will take some time of course, but instead of wasting $150 on a cheap nitro that is generally pretty slow and will last you what? 2-3 months.
You can save and buy a big name brand, like Traxxas, HPI, Losi, Associated, even Tamiya makes some good cars.
As Phmaximum said electric will be just as fun as nitro without the hassle of cleaning, or refueling. Just recharge some LiPo batteries and you're good to go. From my understanding, some electrics are just as fast, if not faster than nitro cars. I've also heard the Traxxas E-REVO is a pretty good starter car. But don't take too much information from me, I've always been pretty big in Nitro.
02-25-2015, 02:12 AM
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My apologies! I re-read the initial post, $250-$350 budget is a decent starting amount.
if you really want to get into Nitro, you could get a cheap 1/10 scale Redcat Racing buggy, or even the Volcano S30 truck, it's about $200,
the starter kit I mentioned earlier is about $50 but will give you everything you need to get running, and you can buy 2 or 3 spare glow plugs just to start with, that will barely graze $300.
if you want to spend more money up front, but save money in the long run. You can always continue down the electric route, it is more expencive up front, but batteries are rechargeable; Nitro fuel is not, and Nitro fuel costs $30-$40 by the gallon.
if you really want to get into Nitro, you could get a cheap 1/10 scale Redcat Racing buggy, or even the Volcano S30 truck, it's about $200,
the starter kit I mentioned earlier is about $50 but will give you everything you need to get running, and you can buy 2 or 3 spare glow plugs just to start with, that will barely graze $300.
if you want to spend more money up front, but save money in the long run. You can always continue down the electric route, it is more expencive up front, but batteries are rechargeable; Nitro fuel is not, and Nitro fuel costs $30-$40 by the gallon.
02-25-2015, 03:19 AM
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Thanks for all of the replies guys. They're much appreciated, although now I'm rethinking my nitro decision. I've always been into electric but have wanted a nitro for a very long time. To give you some insight as to how long I've been out of the game, my current electric cars are a Kyosho Aerostreak, Taymia Clod Buster and Super Blackfoot....lol.
I'll do more research before making my decision but I will post back when I do.
Thanks again for all of the replies and advice!
Ron
I'll do more research before making my decision but I will post back when I do.
Thanks again for all of the replies and advice!
Ron
Last edited by Guff15; 02-25-2015 at 03:27 AM.
02-25-2015, 03:51 AM
#10
Oh wow.... Sounds like u have some nice cars.... But things have come so far since then...
The biggest things to rock the rc world is lipo batteries and brushless combos
brushless combos, the power they can put out is truly amazing espicaly for someone that is use to brushed motors and NiCd batteries.
Currently u can buy a 1/7 brushless car that can do 100mph out of the box..... That's crazy but it gives u an idea of how much power brushless combos have.
Lipo's there power density is a lot greater than nimh batteries (lighter and more powerful), they can be charged with in 1h20min, there run times are considerably longer because they generally have a higher Mha rating, through out there discharge cycle they don't loose as many volts, under load they are less likely to suffer from voltage drop and something like a average 7.4v 2s 5500mah 30c lipo can supply 165amps....
Im not trying to talk you out of a nitro.... Don't get me wrong. I'm just sharing my findings and I'd highly recomend asking as manny question and researching the more modern brushless rc cars...
The biggest things to rock the rc world is lipo batteries and brushless combos
brushless combos, the power they can put out is truly amazing espicaly for someone that is use to brushed motors and NiCd batteries.
Currently u can buy a 1/7 brushless car that can do 100mph out of the box..... That's crazy but it gives u an idea of how much power brushless combos have.
Lipo's there power density is a lot greater than nimh batteries (lighter and more powerful), they can be charged with in 1h20min, there run times are considerably longer because they generally have a higher Mha rating, through out there discharge cycle they don't loose as many volts, under load they are less likely to suffer from voltage drop and something like a average 7.4v 2s 5500mah 30c lipo can supply 165amps....
Im not trying to talk you out of a nitro.... Don't get me wrong. I'm just sharing my findings and I'd highly recomend asking as manny question and researching the more modern brushless rc cars...
02-25-2015, 07:32 AM
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Yeah, Guff
Theres benefits to both Electric, and Nitro.
Ill start with pros and cons for nitro;
pro: Sound, more like a real car, experience working with the piston, etc.
in my opinion, Nitro is worth it the most because it feels more realistic.
con: fuel price, the gunk that gets onto the chassis, don't let the car sit with fuel in the tank, for awhile at least.
electric,
pro: save money in the long run, possibly faster, some parts are more expencive than nitro but a majority are cheaper.
con: price of batteries, if mistreated batteries can be blown out or even fatal, and of course the worst! CHARGING THE BATTERIES.
of course if you take either of the cars off roading, you will need to clean them.
My personal opinion man; If you want to experience nitro, then do it. You won't regret it, sure it's a tiny bit more expencive, but you can think of it as more of a weekend thing. Kinda like a sports car and an daily driver man. Nitros smell good (if tuned right) and sound even better. And with Electric all you'll get smell wise is possibly a burning motor, and a wheeeeeee sound.
Theres benefits to both Electric, and Nitro.
Ill start with pros and cons for nitro;
pro: Sound, more like a real car, experience working with the piston, etc.
in my opinion, Nitro is worth it the most because it feels more realistic.
con: fuel price, the gunk that gets onto the chassis, don't let the car sit with fuel in the tank, for awhile at least.
electric,
pro: save money in the long run, possibly faster, some parts are more expencive than nitro but a majority are cheaper.
con: price of batteries, if mistreated batteries can be blown out or even fatal, and of course the worst! CHARGING THE BATTERIES.
of course if you take either of the cars off roading, you will need to clean them.
My personal opinion man; If you want to experience nitro, then do it. You won't regret it, sure it's a tiny bit more expencive, but you can think of it as more of a weekend thing. Kinda like a sports car and an daily driver man. Nitros smell good (if tuned right) and sound even better. And with Electric all you'll get smell wise is possibly a burning motor, and a wheeeeeee sound.
02-25-2015, 07:33 AM
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Yeah, Guff
Theres benefits to both Electric, and Nitro.
Ill start with pros and cons for nitro;
pro: Sound, more like a real car, experience working with the piston, etc.
in my opinion, Nitro is worth it the most because it feels more realistic.
con: fuel price, the gunk that gets onto the chassis, don't let the car sit with fuel in the tank, for awhile at least.
electric,
pro: save money in the long run, possibly faster, some parts are more expencive than nitro but a majority are cheaper.
con: price of batteries, if mistreated batteries can be blown out or even fatal, and of course the worst! CHARGING THE BATTERIES.
of course if you take either of the cars off roading, you will need to clean them.
My personal opinion man; If you want to experience nitro, then do it. You won't regret it, sure it's a tiny bit more expencive, but you can think of it as more of a weekend thing. Kinda like a sports car and an daily driver man. Nitros smell good (if tuned right) and sound even better. And with Electric all you'll get smell wise is possibly a burning motor, and a wheeeeeee sound.
Theres benefits to both Electric, and Nitro.
Ill start with pros and cons for nitro;
pro: Sound, more like a real car, experience working with the piston, etc.
in my opinion, Nitro is worth it the most because it feels more realistic.
con: fuel price, the gunk that gets onto the chassis, don't let the car sit with fuel in the tank, for awhile at least.
electric,
pro: save money in the long run, possibly faster, some parts are more expencive than nitro but a majority are cheaper.
con: price of batteries, if mistreated batteries can be blown out or even fatal, and of course the worst! CHARGING THE BATTERIES.
of course if you take either of the cars off roading, you will need to clean them.
My personal opinion man; If you want to experience nitro, then do it. You won't regret it, sure it's a tiny bit more expencive, but you can think of it as more of a weekend thing. Kinda like a sports car and an daily driver man. Nitros smell good (if tuned right) and sound even better. And with Electric all you'll get smell wise is possibly a burning motor, and a wheeeeeee sound.
02-25-2015, 10:42 AM
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I'm not saying I have this nitro thing down very well yet. I seem to have trouble tuning. Anyways I'm kind of tight and I have nimh in a summit with a Dewalt drill motor and it frys batteries and I haven't went lipo yet because of the cost. The nitro is cool and fast when you get it tuned Right. As you do I always wanted nitro but now with my son being 2 I have a hard time finding time to run it. The summit I can charge the batteries and go out and run it for 20 minutes then right back inside. The savage x 4.6 I have to charge the batteries and go out and tune it for different eat her then can run it for 15 to 25 minutes then refill if I have more time. it takes 30 minutes to run a set of batteries in the summit and that includes grabbing the stuff going outside and driving it then put everything up and no cleaning. The savage takes an hour atleast and that if tuning goes well then wing the frame off so you don't get the nitro oil residue everywhere. If I want to go somewhere then it takes longer for taking tools or whatever then drive time. They are fun though. Either way, upgrade to newer electric or newer nitro, it's too much fun to miss it.
02-25-2015, 02:08 PM
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Well, I think I've decided on the Redcat 1/8 nitro Backdraft. I found it at a good price too......
http://www.rcplanet.com/Redcat_Racin...t-3.5-blue.htm
I'm going to get a starter kit but will hold off on an electric starter until I get comfortable with the car.
Any thoughts or suggestions on this model before I pull the trigger?
(my apologies if I wasn't suppose to post a link)
http://www.rcplanet.com/Redcat_Racin...t-3.5-blue.htm
I'm going to get a starter kit but will hold off on an electric starter until I get comfortable with the car.
Any thoughts or suggestions on this model before I pull the trigger?
(my apologies if I wasn't suppose to post a link)
Last edited by Guff15; 02-25-2015 at 05:10 PM.
02-25-2015, 05:42 PM
#16
biggest complaints I have against nitro....
they are not really a family fun car for all ages
The fumes and noise can really upset people... Mainly females
They get extreemly dirty
Nitro tuning curve can be expensive, when I was a teenager I went through 3 Pistons and liners before I worked out how to tune and be able to identify problems, diagnose them correctly and solve the issues
nitro fuel is expensive
rechargable receiver packs take longer than a lipo to charge
not very good at slow speeds
Not very good at low speed hill climbs
and here I'll save the best for last....
NO REVERSE... Yes some have reverse but generally they don't
no kidding.... Get one of ur current cars and drive it around without reverse.... It can really take the fun out of things... No imagine doing that with something faster that u will be more likely to make mistakes with.
where with electric if u see some crazy jump, big massive hill or rough terrain, I can have a go.... Because u know if u get stuck u can reverse out...
Also if u have reverse u are not limited to where u drive it, I drive some of my electrics in the back yard.. No way I could do that with a nitro... I would have to drive to carefully that it would take the fun out of it.
A lot of people may disagree but....
Personally I think u should only go nitro if u have above average mechanical skills and are able to self teach
or
U have some one to mentor you
they are not really a family fun car for all ages
The fumes and noise can really upset people... Mainly females
They get extreemly dirty
Nitro tuning curve can be expensive, when I was a teenager I went through 3 Pistons and liners before I worked out how to tune and be able to identify problems, diagnose them correctly and solve the issues
nitro fuel is expensive
rechargable receiver packs take longer than a lipo to charge
not very good at slow speeds
Not very good at low speed hill climbs
and here I'll save the best for last....
NO REVERSE... Yes some have reverse but generally they don't
no kidding.... Get one of ur current cars and drive it around without reverse.... It can really take the fun out of things... No imagine doing that with something faster that u will be more likely to make mistakes with.
where with electric if u see some crazy jump, big massive hill or rough terrain, I can have a go.... Because u know if u get stuck u can reverse out...
Also if u have reverse u are not limited to where u drive it, I drive some of my electrics in the back yard.. No way I could do that with a nitro... I would have to drive to carefully that it would take the fun out of it.
A lot of people may disagree but....
Personally I think u should only go nitro if u have above average mechanical skills and are able to self teach
or
U have some one to mentor you
Last edited by phmaximus; 02-25-2015 at 05:44 PM.
02-25-2015, 08:11 PM
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Get what YOU want to get Guff, personally I think it's a great starter model, and if you got it cheap enough, don't let it slide.
I'd just buy the super starter kit off of Amazon for $50, it'll have everything and more. I've been in RC for quite some time, the hobby isn't cheap, but nobody ever said it was. So start with that Redcat, if you don't like it; Re-Sell it. Plain and simple.
Kyle
I'd just buy the super starter kit off of Amazon for $50, it'll have everything and more. I've been in RC for quite some time, the hobby isn't cheap, but nobody ever said it was. So start with that Redcat, if you don't like it; Re-Sell it. Plain and simple.
Kyle
02-25-2015, 09:58 PM
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Phmax, I appreciate your input! To answer your questions/cconcerns, I have a park directly behind my house so room is not a concern, thus I'm okay with no reverse. I'm also looking at eventually converting my Super Blackfoot to brushless, that way I can still have some electric fun in front of the house. I'm also pretty handy and learn fast. I'm also somewhat of a perfectionist so I plan on taking my time with tuning and cleaning....lol
FirstGen, I actually found it for $230 but I want to research the company before I pull the trigger. If they're not reputable then I'll pay the extra $20 at the other site. I'm figuring a total price of around $300 for the buggy, starter kit and extra glow plugs.
I'll keep you guys posted when I get it! Thanks again for all of the input and suggestions guys. It's much appreciated!
FirstGen, I actually found it for $230 but I want to research the company before I pull the trigger. If they're not reputable then I'll pay the extra $20 at the other site. I'm figuring a total price of around $300 for the buggy, starter kit and extra glow plugs.
I'll keep you guys posted when I get it! Thanks again for all of the input and suggestions guys. It's much appreciated!
02-25-2015, 10:23 PM
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$300 isn't too bad of a price for a complete Nitro starter, including the car, and everything needed to keep it running a few runs.
Now ow here is where I am going to tell you straight forward, spend $30 more and get a gallon of Torco Race fuel from teir website, you can order special blends specific for your car, you're going to need to break in the motor of the nitro properly otherwise it will only lead to more problems in the long run.
Man im psyched you decided to go with Nitro, if in the future you ever need any help with it, I'm the go2 guy, I'll help to my farthest extent, but a lot of other RCU members know a lot too!
Now ow here is where I am going to tell you straight forward, spend $30 more and get a gallon of Torco Race fuel from teir website, you can order special blends specific for your car, you're going to need to break in the motor of the nitro properly otherwise it will only lead to more problems in the long run.
Man im psyched you decided to go with Nitro, if in the future you ever need any help with it, I'm the go2 guy, I'll help to my farthest extent, but a lot of other RCU members know a lot too!
02-26-2015, 12:37 AM
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Im glad you said that!....lol. I was watching tuning videos from Redcat Racing and one statement in a video caught my attention. They said that temperature affects the fuel to air mixture, which I already knew, but are these engines that finicky to where a 10-15* difference will affect them to the point where they need to be tuned again?
02-26-2015, 09:33 AM
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Yes and No, this question is somewhat answered.
if the tuning is slightly off, then yes, you need to continue to adjust, but I've tuned my car once and it is perfect weather it is hot or cold.
the problem is, you need to make sure you don't over heat the engine itself, as the engine heats up, the piston continues to slap straight but the piston sleeve expands slightly.
Most people will recommend a infrared heat gun, I couldn't ever afford one so I began testing heat by simply placing my hand 1" away from th cooling head to see how much heat is radiating from the motor, think about your average body temperature, I round it even to 100 degrees ferenheit, and any warmth on your hand will obviously be hotter, if it's burning your hand from a 1" distance obviously it's too hot.
back to the initial question, if you find the correct A/F ratio then no, you will not need to further adjust; However, over a period of time, the motor will begin to set and it will wear out, and you wi need to further adjust.
if the tuning is slightly off, then yes, you need to continue to adjust, but I've tuned my car once and it is perfect weather it is hot or cold.
the problem is, you need to make sure you don't over heat the engine itself, as the engine heats up, the piston continues to slap straight but the piston sleeve expands slightly.
Most people will recommend a infrared heat gun, I couldn't ever afford one so I began testing heat by simply placing my hand 1" away from th cooling head to see how much heat is radiating from the motor, think about your average body temperature, I round it even to 100 degrees ferenheit, and any warmth on your hand will obviously be hotter, if it's burning your hand from a 1" distance obviously it's too hot.
back to the initial question, if you find the correct A/F ratio then no, you will not need to further adjust; However, over a period of time, the motor will begin to set and it will wear out, and you wi need to further adjust.
02-26-2015, 02:38 PM
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Gotcha, so it sounds like their temperament is similar to a small 2 stroke lawn and garden engine without the spark plug. That put my mind a little more at ease. I didn't want to have to make constant adjustments every time I brought it out. I can understand as the engine breaks in or wears that adjustments will have to be made and I can live with that.
I plan on ordering it in the next week or two so stay tuned! No sense in rushing into it when our temps are constantly in the teens right now as there's no way I'm standing outside for 5 tanks of fuel on the initial break in....lol
I plan on ordering it in the next week or two so stay tuned! No sense in rushing into it when our temps are constantly in the teens right now as there's no way I'm standing outside for 5 tanks of fuel on the initial break in....lol
02-26-2015, 04:11 PM
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Im glad you said that!....lol. I was watching tuning videos from Redcat Racing and one statement in a video caught my attention. They said that temperature affects the fuel to air mixture, which I already knew, but are these engines that finicky to where a 10-15* difference will affect them to the point where they need to be tuned again?
Keep in mind, small 2 stroke lawn and garden gas engines don't run nitro fuel and are spark designs. The running characteristics are not that similar.
Last edited by nitroexpress; 02-26-2015 at 04:15 PM.
02-26-2015, 06:58 PM
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Nitro, I've only had to tune once last year 
My car is still running fantasic, and it's still as fast as it was when I first got it.
It may vary between cars, but from my understanding if you drive it right, treat it right; You can get away with slight adjustments here and there, but the more you touch the carb, the sooner you'll need to replace it. Constantly screwing the HSN and LSN will begin to do almost nothing, that's why on a lot of noobies cars, you'll notice the needle sits almost all the way to the bottom, that's what I'm getting at, play with it for a few weeks, until you find the optimal tune for the car, then leave it, because everytime the car cools down it will run how it originally did.
You want to find a tune that works well with idle, low, mid, and high rpms of course.
My car is still running fantasic, and it's still as fast as it was when I first got it.
It may vary between cars, but from my understanding if you drive it right, treat it right; You can get away with slight adjustments here and there, but the more you touch the carb, the sooner you'll need to replace it. Constantly screwing the HSN and LSN will begin to do almost nothing, that's why on a lot of noobies cars, you'll notice the needle sits almost all the way to the bottom, that's what I'm getting at, play with it for a few weeks, until you find the optimal tune for the car, then leave it, because everytime the car cools down it will run how it originally did.
You want to find a tune that works well with idle, low, mid, and high rpms of course.