RC Electric Off-Road Trucks, Buggies, Truggies and more Discuss electric RC off-road, buggies & trucks here. Also discuss brushless motors, speed controllers aka ESC's, brushed motors, etc

velineon or mamba

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Old 10-12-2008, 02:57 PM
  #251
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

i'm in a love hate situation with my velienon ESC...
i like the fan plug in the side, i like the mudproofness and the easy profile change...
but i hate the cogging at low end and there isnt a throttle curve or brake curve.
the low voltage cut off is so bad (shuts off with a 20c 8k pack and low gearing[:@]) i sometimes run lipo's in nimh mode[X(][X(][X(]

and coupled with the fact that i race my rustler up against 1/8th 4wd trucks i cant have my front wheels alwats off the ground!!

what's this stuff about a programing card for hte VXL ive heard about??
if only the mamba and ESC mated with each other
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Old 10-12-2008, 02:59 PM
  #252
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

You know, after reading this whole thread, I'm sorry I ever doubted Traxxas, my XL-5 was great and all their products are just fine. One question though, you guys say the vxl has a automatic lipo cut off, is there a way to turn it off for nihm? Or does it automatically turn off for nihms?

PS

Any body interested in an XL-5 rusty with ball bearings, brand new alias tires, original manual, and some extra parts? (I may include some RPM parts as well) There isn't a motor included, but the ESC is still working great. It's in good condition too. PM me if your interested.
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Old 10-12-2008, 03:10 PM
  #253
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

Read the user manual. There is a setting to turn it off or on...
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Old 10-12-2008, 03:11 PM
  #254
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

Cool
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:36 PM
  #255
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Default RE: velineon or mamba


Quote:
ORIGINAL: MuggyDude

You know, after reading this whole thread, I'm sorry I ever doubted Traxxas, my XL-5 was great and all their products are just fine. One question though, you guys say the vxl has a automatic lipo cut off, is there a way to turn it off for nihm? Or does it automatically turn off for nihms?
By default it is always on. When you turn it off the light stays red when running.
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:13 PM
  #256
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

That is actually another cool thing about the CC esc's... you can set the cut-off voltage to whatever you want.
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Old 10-12-2008, 05:26 PM
  #257
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

No kidding.
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Old 10-12-2008, 08:34 PM
  #258
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

I don't mean to start an argument...again, but one thing is that cogging is not caused by ESC's the term "cogging" relates to motors, not ESC's. If you want to continue telling people that cogging is caused by ESC's PLEASE prove your theory, by some form of documentation. I have proved cogging is caused by motors, not ESC's.

The reason why firmware fixes (or reduces "cogging") is known as a "start algorithm". This start algorithm is adjusted in the firmware or software update to reduce the effects of "cogging". However, cogging is ALWAYS present in sensorless motors and always will be. That is why sensored motor do not experience cogging. Sensorless systems cogg becasue they cannot know the position of the rotor at the instant they need to calculate starting voltage. Everyone knows that sensorless motors "cogg" due to this lack of data input to the ESC. Sensored motors do have a sensor in them to tell the ESC the current position of the rotor, so the ESC does not have to guess it's starting voltage. Thus I can take an ESC that has the ability to run both sensorless and sensored and I get no cogging from the "sensored" motor. If ESC's caused cogging then please explain why there is a need for a sensored system or a "sensored MOTOR"...why not just make a sensored ESC? Why not just upgrade the ESC and not the motor?

Please provide data that proves that cogging is caused by ESC's and I will admit that I am wrong or mistaken. But I doubt you will find any proof. Cogging is caused by motors!

And please refrain from calling people stupid, when you have not proven your case. I have proven mine and CAN continue to prove it.
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Old 10-12-2008, 08:38 PM
  #259
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Default RE: velineon or mamba


Quote:
ORIGINAL: VVRC

I don't mean to start an argument...again, but one thing is that cogging is not caused by ESC's the term "cogging" relates to motors, not ESC's. If you want to continue telling people that cogging is caused by ESC's PLEASE prove your theory, by some form of documentation. I have proved cogging is caused by motors, not ESC's.

The reason why firmware fixes (or reduces "cogging") is known as a "start algorithm". This start algorithm is adjusted in the firmware or software update to reduce the effects of "cogging". However, cogging is ALWAYS present in sensorless motors and always will be. That is why sensored motor do not experience cogging. Sensorless systems cogg becasue they cannot know the position of the rotor at the instant they need to calculate starting voltage. Everyone knows that sensorless motors "cogg" due to this lack of data input to the ESC. Sensored motors do have a sensor in them to tell the ESC the current position of the rotor, so the ESC does not have to guess it's starting voltage. Thus I can take an ESC that has the ability to run both sensorless and sensored and I get no cogging from the "sensored" motor. If ESC's caused cogging then please explain why there is a need for a sensored system? Why not just upgrade the ESC and not the motor?

Please provide data that proves that cogging is caused by ESC's and I will admit that I am wrong or mistaken. But I doubt you will find any proof. Cogging is caused by motors!

And please refrain from calling people stupid, when you have not proven your case. I have proven mine and CAN continue to prove it.
You know what, thats probably why many use the vxl esc and a different motor. I was told that the vxl/feigao was a great combination and thats why i put it into my erevo. Just an interesting bit of information.
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Old 10-12-2008, 08:46 PM
  #261
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Default RE: velineon or mamba


Quote:
ORIGINAL: vge


Quote:
ORIGINAL: VVRC

I don't mean to start an argument...again, but one thing is that cogging is not caused by ESC's the term "cogging" relates to motors, not ESC's. If you want to continue telling people that cogging is caused by ESC's PLEASE prove your theory, by some form of documentation. I have proved cogging is caused by motors, not ESC's.

The reason why firmware fixes (or reduces "cogging") is known as a "start algorithm". This start algorithm is adjusted in the firmware or software update to reduce the effects of "cogging". However, cogging is ALWAYS present in sensorless motors and always will be. That is why sensored motor do not experience cogging. Sensorless systems cogg becasue they cannot know the position of the rotor at the instant they need to calculate starting voltage. Everyone knows that sensorless motors "cogg" due to this lack of data input to the ESC. Sensored motors do have a sensor in them to tell the ESC the current position of the rotor, so the ESC does not have to guess it's starting voltage. Thus I can take an ESC that has the ability to run both sensorless and sensored and I get no cogging from the "sensored" motor. If ESC's caused cogging then please explain why there is a need for a sensored system? Why not just upgrade the ESC and not the motor?

Please provide data that proves that cogging is caused by ESC's and I will admit that I am wrong or mistaken. But I doubt you will find any proof. Cogging is caused by motors!

And please refrain from calling people stupid, when you have not proven your case. I have proven mine and CAN continue to prove it.
You know what, thats probably why many use the vxl esc and a different motor. I was told that the vxl/feigao was a great combination and thats why i put it into my erevo. Just an interesting bit of information.

Are those some good motors?
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Old 10-12-2008, 08:48 PM
  #262
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

here is something on cogging too

http://forums.radiocontrolzone.com/a.../t-226226.html
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:16 PM
  #263
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

@VVRC

I understand what you're saying about motors, but as I said, the motor design may contribute to cogging, but the ESC is what handles the motor. Sure sensored motors with a capable esc have no cogging, but that doesn't mean that a sensorless motor coggs ALL the time. As you even said, it's the starting algorithm that reduces the effect of cogging. My Sidewinder has no noticeable cogging running the VXL motor, yet the VXL ESC with the VXL motor cogged very bad!

So... while the action of cogging is a result of motor design, the ESC's programming is what determines if that cogging is noticeable or not, thus it is actually the ESC that "causes" cogging because of crappy programming for sensorless motors. [:-]
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:27 PM
  #264
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Default RE: velineon or mamba


Quote:
ORIGINAL: simplecj

@VVRC

I understand what you're saying about motors, but as I said, the motor design may contribute to cogging, but the ESC is what handles the motor. Sure sensored motors with a capable esc have no cogging, but that doesn't mean that a sensorless motor coggs ALL the time. As you even said, it's the starting algorithm that reduces the effect of cogging. My Sidewinder has no noticeable cogging running the VXL motor, yet the VXL ESC with the VXL motor cogged very bad!

So... while the action of cogging is a result of motor design, the ESC's programming is what determines if that cogging is noticeable or not, thus it is actually the ESC that "causes" cogging because of crappy programming for sensorless motors. [:-]

Okay, I can see that...the ESC DOES control whether it is noticable or not....So, with that being said...truce?

Anyway, now back to biz...Are you all saying that the CC's are better at controlling cogging? or the VXL's...now with the update?
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:41 PM
  #265
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Default RE: velineon or mamba


Quote:
ORIGINAL: VVRC


Quote:
ORIGINAL: vge


Quote:
ORIGINAL: VVRC

I don't mean to start an argument...again, but one thing is that cogging is not caused by ESC's the term "cogging" relates to motors, not ESC's. If you want to continue telling people that cogging is caused by ESC's PLEASE prove your theory, by some form of documentation. I have proved cogging is caused by motors, not ESC's.

The reason why firmware fixes (or reduces "cogging") is known as a "start algorithm". This start algorithm is adjusted in the firmware or software update to reduce the effects of "cogging". However, cogging is ALWAYS present in sensorless motors and always will be. That is why sensored motor do not experience cogging. Sensorless systems cogg becasue they cannot know the position of the rotor at the instant they need to calculate starting voltage. Everyone knows that sensorless motors "cogg" due to this lack of data input to the ESC. Sensored motors do have a sensor in them to tell the ESC the current position of the rotor, so the ESC does not have to guess it's starting voltage. Thus I can take an ESC that has the ability to run both sensorless and sensored and I get no cogging from the "sensored" motor. If ESC's caused cogging then please explain why there is a need for a sensored system? Why not just upgrade the ESC and not the motor?

Please provide data that proves that cogging is caused by ESC's and I will admit that I am wrong or mistaken. But I doubt you will find any proof. Cogging is caused by motors!

And please refrain from calling people stupid, when you have not proven your case. I have proven mine and CAN continue to prove it.
You know what, thats probably why many use the vxl esc and a different motor. I was told that the vxl/feigao was a great combination and thats why i put it into my erevo. Just an interesting bit of information.

Are those some good motors?
Great motors and cheap.
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:49 PM
  #266
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

Quote:
ORIGINAL: VVRC
Please provide data that proves that cogging is caused by ESC's and I will admit that I am wrong or mistaken. But I doubt you will find any proof. Cogging is caused by motors!
Before I was answering another post refering to motor "detents" or something like that.

In the context above there really is no "right" answer to "is it caused by the ESC or motor?" The true statement is "It is caused by the ESC not knowing where the rotor is in relation to the poles of the motor". Now whose "fault" is that? It becomes a philosophical argument at this point, an "argument of assumptions" with no clear answer. In short it's caused by the whole "system" (ESC + motor).

And I'm not sure what you mean by "provide documentation". I've always used the saying "seeing is believing". You can drown yourself in links and webpages and scientific-sounding articles to no end. But in the end either answer ("the motor" or "the ESC" ) has gotchas. The only conclusive answer here would be "both".

And I would put "applied knowledge" over some kind of philosophical argument, I've shown what a near-optimal mamba setup can do in the video I provided and while it can't meet the goat in terms of crawl-ability, it's still far better than the original VXL ESC I have. So electric RC tuning / optimization becomes a series of trys like, to minimize cogging, use this ESC over that one.

And someone who has the newer VXL ESCs, I'm just as curious about that as everyone else.
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Old 10-13-2008, 01:17 AM
  #267
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

Thank you Access, once again your wisdom prevails.

You are right in saying it is both motor and esc, but since most brushless motors have the same or similar construction the only real option we have at defeating the dreaded cogg of sensorless motors is to go with an esc that has better programming...

I too am curious if the new VXL really has fixed this issue, it sounds like it has. If that's the case then the VXL esc just got a step closer to Castles controllers.
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Old 10-13-2008, 12:56 PM
  #268
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

Any body interested in an XL-5 rusty with ball bearings, brand new alias tires, original manual and papers, and some extra parts? (I may include some RPM parts as well) It comes with a Trinity P2K2 Pro stock motor in place of the Titan. It has been run a few times but it is still running very well. It is super fast, close to brushless speed and a great brushed motor. The car has a few scratches but overall in great condition. PM me if your interested

(The post I did earlier is this one, but now I'm including the motor)

I will include RPM stub axle carriers and steering blocks
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Old 10-13-2008, 05:29 PM
  #269
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

I would like to change my vote from VXL to neutral. I think it would depend. I have the VXL now, and I have tried the Mamba ESC. Overall, they both worked fine for me personally, but the price and the simplicity of the VXL is what won it over for me. Still, that's just for me personally. Depending on how big cogging, tuning, sensored, etc are to you that would depend. I just don't feel it's right to say that one is better. For me, one is. Besides, even if I wanted the Mamba system, it's not in the budget, and even if it was IMO it's not worth the extra cash for me. Just saying, I was out of line to argue that one was really better.
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Old 10-13-2008, 05:45 PM
  #270
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: Always Dreamin

I would like to change my vote from VXL to neutral. I think it would depend. I have the VXL now, and I have tried the Mamba ESC. Overall, they both worked fine for me personally, but the price and the simplicity of the VXL is what won it over for me. Still, that's just for me personally. Depending on how big cogging, tuning, sensored, etc are to you that would depend. I just don't feel it's right to say that one is better. For me, one is. Besides, even if I wanted the Mamba system, it's not in the budget, and even if it was IMO it's not worth the extra cash for me. Just saying, I was out of line to argue that one was really better.
Thats how I feel. Its not really about which is better or worse to me. Its about which is the best price and offers the best features and use. I personally think in these hard times that the VXL just gets you there for the best price. I feel that if I were maybe doing this for a living and not just for fun then maybe I would buy the most expensive system that would allow me to do more fine tuning. But I really think even for the average hobbyist they dont need that ability. But thats how the industry makes its money. They market stuff the average consumer doesnt need and then the consumer buys it just because they think it is going to make them a better driver. But at the end of the day a better driver with the "K-Mart" brand will beat "Joe Six Pack" with all his/her cash dumped into an rc every time. Thats why I have so many rc than my friends. They spend so much money on useless hopups and I would rather have a variety of kits and rc's. We go to the track and bash and they are no more better than me by a long shot. I choose to dump my cash into a Futaba 3PK with a Spektrum kit. What I find funny is that you see people with these overly hopped up rc's with the worse piece of junk radios. Better yet using AM junk.
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:34 PM
  #271
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Default RE: velineon or mamba


Quote:
ORIGINAL: vge


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Always Dreamin

I would like to change my vote from VXL to neutral. I think it would depend. I have the VXL now, and I have tried the Mamba ESC. Overall, they both worked fine for me personally, but the price and the simplicity of the VXL is what won it over for me. Still, that's just for me personally. Depending on how big cogging, tuning, sensored, etc are to you that would depend. I just don't feel it's right to say that one is better. For me, one is. Besides, even if I wanted the Mamba system, it's not in the budget, and even if it was IMO it's not worth the extra cash for me. Just saying, I was out of line to argue that one was really better.
Thats how I feel. Its not really about which is better or worse to me. Its about which is the best price and offers the best features and use. I personally think in these hard times that the VXL just gets you there for the best price. I feel that if I were maybe doing this for a living and not just for fun then maybe I would buy the most expensive system that would allow me to do more fine tuning. But I really think even for the average hobbyist they dont need that ability. But thats how the industry makes its money. They market stuff the average consumer doesnt need and then the consumer buys it just because they think it is going to make them a better driver. But at the end of the day a better driver with the "K-Mart" brand will beat "Joe Six Pack" with all his/her cash dumped into an rc every time. Thats why I have so many rc than my friends. They spend so much money on useless hopups and I would rather have a variety of kits and rc's. We go to the track and bash and they are no more better than me by a long shot. I choose to dump my cash into a Futaba 3PK with a Spektrum kit. What I find funny is that you see people with these overly hopped up rc's with the worse piece of junk radios. Better yet using AM junk.

....ummmm.......+1
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:12 PM
  #272
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Default RE: velineon or mamba

funny to read these old post on VXL and Mamba....looks like Traxxas is offering both systems all these years later...Ive got a Revo 1/16 with Vilneon and 1/18 with Mamba, ...both scream running dual lipos........
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:14 PM
  #273
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ORIGINAL: Jefferson1964

funny to read these old post on VXL and Mamba....looks like Traxxas is offering both systems all these years later...Ive got a Revo 1/16 with Vilneon and 1/18 with Mamba, ...both scream running dual lipos........
Why the hell did you resurrect this??
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