Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
07-12-2010, 09:02 PM
#26
My Feedback: (31)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Danville,
KY
Posts: 4,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: Specialzed
That said I see absolutely zero reason for stores to keep selling nitro cars, that technology is even worse than brushed motors.
That said I see absolutely zero reason for stores to keep selling nitro cars, that technology is even worse than brushed motors.
I have a brushless electric truck that I built. I had to mount the transmission because it came out of a different truck, I had to make a battery holder, I had to modify the transmission with all metal gears, and build my own center driveshafts. I know what its like to run a brushless for the first time. Yes they are powerful, but this is a hobby and although nitro typically isnt as fast, you better believe the thrill is still there for other reasons, and I enjoy my nitro's a lot.
Eric
07-12-2010, 09:10 PM
#27
Senior Member
My Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: boca raton ,
FL
Posts: 1,105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: cummins driver
... If you think it was a feat to swap the motor and ESC on your E-Maxx, break in and tune a nitro engine. You will feel like a hero then. And when that nitro is just screaming down the road at 30k rpm with a flawless tune, you know its because you had the knowledge to tune it to perfection.
... If you think it was a feat to swap the motor and ESC on your E-Maxx, break in and tune a nitro engine. You will feel like a hero then. And when that nitro is just screaming down the road at 30k rpm with a flawless tune, you know its because you had the knowledge to tune it to perfection.
07-12-2010, 09:44 PM
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: sterling heights,
MI
Posts: 1,857
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: cummins driver
although nitro typically isnt as fast
Eric
ORIGINAL: Specialzed
That said I see absolutely zero reason for stores to keep selling nitro cars, that technology is even worse than brushed motors.
That said I see absolutely zero reason for stores to keep selling nitro cars, that technology is even worse than brushed motors.
Eric
however you want to slice it, the technology is evolving, and nitros havent caught up yet- blame manufacturers
07-12-2010, 10:30 PM
#29
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: cummins driver
You have no idea about nitro. If you think it was a feat to swap the motor and ESC on your E-Maxx, break in and tune a nitro engine. You will feel like a hero then. And when that nitro is just screaming down the road at 30k rpm with a flawless tune, you know its because you had the knowledge to tune it to perfection. You can have 2 nitro engines and one will blow the other out of the water if one is tuned correctly and one isnt. You cant buy your way into performance if you dont know what you are doing with nitro, like you can with electric.
I have a brushless electric truck that I built. I had to mount the transmission because it came out of a different truck, I had to make a battery holder, I had to modify the transmission with all metal gears, and build my own center driveshafts. I know what its like to run a brushless for the first time. Yes they are powerful, but this is a hobby and although nitro typically isnt as fast, you better believe the thrill is still there for other reasons, and I enjoy my nitro's a lot.
Eric
ORIGINAL: Specialzed
That said I see absolutely zero reason for stores to keep selling nitro cars, that technology is even worse than brushed motors.
That said I see absolutely zero reason for stores to keep selling nitro cars, that technology is even worse than brushed motors.
I have a brushless electric truck that I built. I had to mount the transmission because it came out of a different truck, I had to make a battery holder, I had to modify the transmission with all metal gears, and build my own center driveshafts. I know what its like to run a brushless for the first time. Yes they are powerful, but this is a hobby and although nitro typically isnt as fast, you better believe the thrill is still there for other reasons, and I enjoy my nitro's a lot.
Eric
Been there done that
Side note your truck still ripping it up? And how is that HK esc holding up cause I'm thinking of getting one for my savage .21 I converted due the the MM getting way too hot that I had in it (slaped it in a Jammin X1 CRT I'm converting which is alot lighter than the savage)
savagecommander
Only think I've wondered is how can nitro evolve anymore? Only thing I can even remotely think of adding in fuel injectors, or more pistons but either one would increase the weight, size, complexity, and cost of the engine to the point that a gasser would be more suitable for the application.
07-12-2010, 10:36 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: sterling heights,
MI
Posts: 1,857
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
youve got a point, but would tossing another cylinder on a motor REALLY be that hard? youd have just about twice what motors are putting out now. make it a four stroke for gods sake! ANYTHING!!
07-12-2010, 10:42 PM
#31
Banned
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Edmonton, AB, CANADA
Posts: 1,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: cumquat
just what this hobby needs, another ''brushless is god'' fanboy. i would bet my last dollar you have never even ran a nitro let alone owned one. nitro is still dominating the 1/8th scale racing scene for a reason.
when you race the savage make sure you record it and your face, i want to watch the savage pass your maxx and the look on your face when it happens.
ORIGINAL: Specialzed
IF you have not already done a brushless conversion yourself. I say this only because the experience is amazing. I have a 3905 Emaxx that I got on a trade off the marketplace and I wanted to convert it to brushless. Throughout the whole time of ordering and waiting to receive the parts for the conversion I was always kicking myself in the back of my mind for not just getting a Brushless Emaxx or a Savage Flux.
Through all the headache of a brushless conversion being done by an RC beginner (taking things apart, mounting new things, SOLDERING) I have to say once the car runs, all the headache is worth it. Brushed motors are OLD TECHNOLOGY and the difference between them and brushless motors is like NIGHT AND DAY. My Emaxx running a 540 size 2600kv Turnigy inrunner through a HK150a esc with only 1 7.2v 4600mah battery is faster than my Emaxx with twin titans and 2 7.2v 4600mah battery's
Hold up,
Brushless motors with half the power are faster than brushed motors with twice as much power? Whats going on here?!!
Not to mention with the brushless motors the car runs much quieter, doesn't cog at all and is just way more enjoyable to drive. I think if you care about this hobby and want to have as much fun in it as possible, you shouldn't drive a brushless car until you've driven a brushed motor car and you should convert said car to brushless yourself. After your finished you'll be preaching like me for sure. That said I see absolutely zero reason for stores to keep selling nitro cars, that technology is even worse than brushed motors.
The reason why I was running only one 7.2v nimh was only to test out the esc, I thought if I was lucky it would turn the motor slighty so I could at least tell it was working but little did I know that with only 1 battery the damn thing would be faster than its stock counterpart with 2 battery's! This is madness! Has anyone else had an experience like this?
IF you have not already done a brushless conversion yourself. I say this only because the experience is amazing. I have a 3905 Emaxx that I got on a trade off the marketplace and I wanted to convert it to brushless. Throughout the whole time of ordering and waiting to receive the parts for the conversion I was always kicking myself in the back of my mind for not just getting a Brushless Emaxx or a Savage Flux.
Through all the headache of a brushless conversion being done by an RC beginner (taking things apart, mounting new things, SOLDERING) I have to say once the car runs, all the headache is worth it. Brushed motors are OLD TECHNOLOGY and the difference between them and brushless motors is like NIGHT AND DAY. My Emaxx running a 540 size 2600kv Turnigy inrunner through a HK150a esc with only 1 7.2v 4600mah battery is faster than my Emaxx with twin titans and 2 7.2v 4600mah battery's
Hold up,
Brushless motors with half the power are faster than brushed motors with twice as much power? Whats going on here?!!
Not to mention with the brushless motors the car runs much quieter, doesn't cog at all and is just way more enjoyable to drive. I think if you care about this hobby and want to have as much fun in it as possible, you shouldn't drive a brushless car until you've driven a brushed motor car and you should convert said car to brushless yourself. After your finished you'll be preaching like me for sure. That said I see absolutely zero reason for stores to keep selling nitro cars, that technology is even worse than brushed motors.
The reason why I was running only one 7.2v nimh was only to test out the esc, I thought if I was lucky it would turn the motor slighty so I could at least tell it was working but little did I know that with only 1 battery the damn thing would be faster than its stock counterpart with 2 battery's! This is madness! Has anyone else had an experience like this?
when you race the savage make sure you record it and your face, i want to watch the savage pass your maxx and the look on your face when it happens.
ORIGINAL: grimgard
This is not rocket science so stop patting your self on your back because you were able to use a Hex wrench, solder a few wires, and apply sticky tape.
This is not rocket science so stop patting your self on your back because you were able to use a Hex wrench, solder a few wires, and apply sticky tape.
07-12-2010, 11:16 PM
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 6,812
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: Specialzed
Ive owned and ran a nitro before, glad thats over. Your username suits your intelligence.
Coming from the guy who has so many rtr brushless vehicles, I wouldnt expect you to understand.
Ive owned and ran a nitro before, glad thats over. Your username suits your intelligence.
ORIGINAL: grimgard
This is not rocket science so stop patting your self on your back because you were able to use a Hex wrench, solder a few wires, and apply sticky tape.
This is not rocket science so stop patting your self on your back because you were able to use a Hex wrench, solder a few wires, and apply sticky tape.
unlike many other people i know im not the smartest person in the world, i dont try to hide it, but calling me an idiot for reading a post that is straight from the "i have never ran a nitro but i know it sucks" textbook and making the seemingly obvious assumption that you never experienced nitro is unfair. at any rate, to each his own and lets agree to disagree and not spark the nearly unavoidable "nitro vs. electric" thread #1,000,000,000.
07-13-2010, 12:30 AM
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Regina, SK, CANADA
Posts: 346
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
Just because some of you dont have the money or are stuck in the past, dont blame those that are able and willing to actually spend some money into this hobby. Stick with your brushed motor, your AM radio and Nihm batteries. Technology is obviously not your friend.
And I wont even go into the nitro scene....more and more conversions are being done anyways.
I cant help but think that the cars you drive have carburetors and your computer monitors are more than likely CRT type.....you guys sound like my in-laws. Their VCR is still hooked up to their 200lb wooden RCA TV.
And I wont even go into the nitro scene....more and more conversions are being done anyways.
I cant help but think that the cars you drive have carburetors and your computer monitors are more than likely CRT type.....you guys sound like my in-laws. Their VCR is still hooked up to their 200lb wooden RCA TV.
07-13-2010, 01:43 AM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 6,812
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: Yosh70
Just because some of you dont have the money or are stuck in the past, dont blame those that are able and willing to actually spend some money into this hobby. Stick with your brushed motor, your AM radio and Nihm batteries. Technology is obviously not your friend.
And I wont even go into the nitro scene....more and more conversions are being done anyways.
I cant help but think that the cars you drive have carburetors and your computer monitors are more than likely CRT type.....you guys sound like my in-laws. Their VCR is still hooked up to their 200lb wooden RCA TV.
Just because some of you dont have the money or are stuck in the past, dont blame those that are able and willing to actually spend some money into this hobby. Stick with your brushed motor, your AM radio and Nihm batteries. Technology is obviously not your friend.
And I wont even go into the nitro scene....more and more conversions are being done anyways.
I cant help but think that the cars you drive have carburetors and your computer monitors are more than likely CRT type.....you guys sound like my in-laws. Their VCR is still hooked up to their 200lb wooden RCA TV.
im on my desktop with a 750gb hard drive and 4gb ram (i am aware that isnt anything super powerful but it has a lot more power than the other 2 working desktops in the house combined) hooked up to our 32" 720p lcd tv. me ps3 is sitting on my desktop and hooked up to the same tv with an hdmi cable.
my mom got a "new" 2005 dodge grand caravan after her 2002 Hyundai Elentra finally became too much work. my grandpa (who i sort of, kind of live with) drives a 2009 Hyundai elentra because he forgot to pay the loan off on his 2006.
if i really wanted to go BL/lipo ib my gravel hound then i could easily do some work over the winter and buy a tekin and maxamps setup, but i dont want to.
07-13-2010, 02:37 AM
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: SA, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: cumquat
...but calling me an idiot for reading a post that is straight from the "i have never ran a nitro but i know it sucks" textbook...
...but calling me an idiot for reading a post that is straight from the "i have never ran a nitro but i know it sucks" textbook...
07-13-2010, 02:47 AM
#39
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Victoria, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: Specialzed
IF you have not already done a brushless conversion yourself. I say this only because the experience is amazing. I have a 3905 Emaxx that I got on a trade off the marketplace and I wanted to convert it to brushless. Throughout the whole time of ordering and waiting to receive the parts for the conversion I was always kicking myself in the back of my mind for not just getting a Brushless Emaxx or a Savage Flux.
Through all the headache of a brushless conversion being done by an RC beginner (taking things apart, mounting new things, SOLDERING) I have to say once the car runs, all the headache is worth it. Brushed motors are OLD TECHNOLOGY and the difference between them and brushless motors is like NIGHT AND DAY. My Emaxx running a 540 size 2600kv Turnigy inrunner through a HK150a esc with only 1 7.2v 4600mah battery is faster than my Emaxx with twin titans and 2 7.2v 4600mah battery's
Hold up,
Brushless motors with half the power are faster than brushed motors with twice as much power? Whats going on here?!!
Not to mention with the brushless motors the car runs much quieter, doesn't cog at all and is just way more enjoyable to drive. I think if you care about this hobby and want to have as much fun in it as possible, you shouldn't drive a brushless car until you've driven a brushed motor car and you should convert said car to brushless yourself. After your finished you'll be preaching like me for sure. That said I see absolutely zero reason for stores to keep selling nitro cars, that technology is even worse than brushed motors.
The reason why I was running only one 7.2v nimh was only to test out the esc, I thought if I was lucky it would turn the motor slighty so I could at least tell it was working but little did I know that with only 1 battery the damn thing would be faster than its stock counterpart with 2 battery's! This is madness! Has anyone else had an experience like this?
IF you have not already done a brushless conversion yourself. I say this only because the experience is amazing. I have a 3905 Emaxx that I got on a trade off the marketplace and I wanted to convert it to brushless. Throughout the whole time of ordering and waiting to receive the parts for the conversion I was always kicking myself in the back of my mind for not just getting a Brushless Emaxx or a Savage Flux.
Through all the headache of a brushless conversion being done by an RC beginner (taking things apart, mounting new things, SOLDERING) I have to say once the car runs, all the headache is worth it. Brushed motors are OLD TECHNOLOGY and the difference between them and brushless motors is like NIGHT AND DAY. My Emaxx running a 540 size 2600kv Turnigy inrunner through a HK150a esc with only 1 7.2v 4600mah battery is faster than my Emaxx with twin titans and 2 7.2v 4600mah battery's
Hold up,
Brushless motors with half the power are faster than brushed motors with twice as much power? Whats going on here?!!
Not to mention with the brushless motors the car runs much quieter, doesn't cog at all and is just way more enjoyable to drive. I think if you care about this hobby and want to have as much fun in it as possible, you shouldn't drive a brushless car until you've driven a brushed motor car and you should convert said car to brushless yourself. After your finished you'll be preaching like me for sure. That said I see absolutely zero reason for stores to keep selling nitro cars, that technology is even worse than brushed motors.
The reason why I was running only one 7.2v nimh was only to test out the esc, I thought if I was lucky it would turn the motor slighty so I could at least tell it was working but little did I know that with only 1 battery the damn thing would be faster than its stock counterpart with 2 battery's! This is madness! Has anyone else had an experience like this?
07-13-2010, 03:02 AM
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: SA, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 668
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: MMGT
Sorry to interup your flame war, lol but does the motor connectors fit into the ESC without soldering different connectors?
Sorry to interup your flame war, lol but does the motor connectors fit into the ESC without soldering different connectors?
I'm running one in my Savage Flux.
07-13-2010, 09:53 AM
#41
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Moore, OK
Posts: 1,380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
wow this thread is do done with. bottom line let people enjoy the hobby in their own way opinions don't matter to anyone but themselves. if you don't like rtr brushless oh well it wasn't being made for you then.
07-13-2010, 10:52 AM
#42
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
Ok guys, this thread is getting a little bit off track. This thread is about brushless vs. brushed ELECTRIC motors, and is in the Electric Off-Road forum. Let's keep the discussion, or comparison, of nitro vehicles out of the discussion here. This is NOT the place for it. Any further talk of nitro vehicles here will be removed
Ken
07-13-2010, 01:37 PM
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fort Bragg,
CA
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
i agree with building your own brushless system. it may not be more than plugging in some connectors and using some sticky tape to some but doing your homework and piecing together an esc and motor combo for yourself and watching it work is were i get my satisfaction. for all you rtr haters out there, there is a solution to rtr's: take them apart and put it all back together again. that's what i do with my rtr's. i break them down and look for mhat i think my be a weak spot and replace parts accordingly. also, breaking it down helps me understand where everything goes and how it goes together and when something breaks i know how to replace it. most companies have part break down diagrams show where everything goes if you get lost.
07-13-2010, 01:53 PM
#45
Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Black Forest, GERMANY
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
Most of the guys saying "don't buy RTR" on this thread probably never built an RC10/Tamiya Big Foot/Grasshopper from Scratch 20+ years ago. What you consider "building" now is a joke compared to what it was when I was in high school. The good RC cars back then came in hundreds of pieces that needed to be built from the ground up.
What the OP is calling "building" is simply adding a motor, an esc and maybe some metal gears. Pretty funny, because I enjoy my RTR mini E-Revo because it is twice as fast as any of the RC Cars I had and built in high school and with no hassles. So, yeah, I am all for BUY RTR, because some of us have jobs, kids, a wife, a life...
What the OP is calling "building" is simply adding a motor, an esc and maybe some metal gears. Pretty funny, because I enjoy my RTR mini E-Revo because it is twice as fast as any of the RC Cars I had and built in high school and with no hassles. So, yeah, I am all for BUY RTR, because some of us have jobs, kids, a wife, a life...
07-13-2010, 01:59 PM
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fort Bragg,
CA
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: tomdiebomb
Most of the guys saying ''don't buy RTR'' on this thread probably never built an RC10/Tamiya Big Foot/Grasshopper from Scratch 20+ years ago. What you consider ''building'' now is a joke compared to what it was when I was in high school. The good RC cars back then came in hundreds of pieces that needed to be built from the ground up.
What the OP is calling ''building'' is simply adding a motor, an esc and maybe some metal gears. Pretty funny, because I enjoy my RTR mini E-Revo because it is twice as fast as any of the RC Cars I had and built in high school and with no hassles. So, yeah, I am all for BUY RTR, because some of us have jobs, kids, a wife, a life...
Most of the guys saying ''don't buy RTR'' on this thread probably never built an RC10/Tamiya Big Foot/Grasshopper from Scratch 20+ years ago. What you consider ''building'' now is a joke compared to what it was when I was in high school. The good RC cars back then came in hundreds of pieces that needed to be built from the ground up.
What the OP is calling ''building'' is simply adding a motor, an esc and maybe some metal gears. Pretty funny, because I enjoy my RTR mini E-Revo because it is twice as fast as any of the RC Cars I had and built in high school and with no hassles. So, yeah, I am all for BUY RTR, because some of us have jobs, kids, a wife, a life...
07-13-2010, 03:44 PM
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: sterling heights,
MI
Posts: 1,857
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
heres a good take on RTR's- i bought a slash- never needed to change anything. too many ppl are convinced RTR's are garbage, or they feel like they are "more accomplished" or "better" because they put theirs together.... seems kind of elitist to me... i guess the bottom line is, good car= good car, wether RTR or kit.
07-13-2010, 03:55 PM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fort Bragg,
CA
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
i have dealt with guys at the track that tried to give me slack about my truck being an rtr, but when we hit the track i showed them that even an rtr can compete. like my sig says it 1% hobby 99% deditcation. if you are dedicated enough you can make any car a good car by putting in the work and parts into your ride. i love rtr for one major fact: YOU'RE NOT EXPECTED TO WIN. so when you do it feels just that much better to me.
i dont hate on the kit guys for hating on me though. im there to have fun and enjoy some track time. most of the times that i have raced there has been no prizes for first or anything so im just out having fun like everyone else should be
i dont hate on the kit guys for hating on me though. im there to have fun and enjoy some track time. most of the times that i have raced there has been no prizes for first or anything so im just out having fun like everyone else should be
07-13-2010, 04:07 PM
#49
My Feedback: (31)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Danville,
KY
Posts: 4,388
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: SyCo_VeNoM
Side note your truck still ripping it up? And how is that HK esc holding up cause I'm thinking of getting one for my savage .21 I converted due the the MM getting way too hot that I had in it (slaped it in a Jammin X1 CRT I'm converting which is alot lighter than the savage)
Side note your truck still ripping it up? And how is that HK esc holding up cause I'm thinking of getting one for my savage .21 I converted due the the MM getting way too hot that I had in it (slaped it in a Jammin X1 CRT I'm converting which is alot lighter than the savage)
Eric
07-13-2010, 04:22 PM
#50
RE: Dont Buy RTR Brushless Trucks!
ORIGINAL: cummins driver
Yep, its still running great. I was busing transmission gears, so I did a metal gear mod. It has all steel gears in the tranny now and the driveline seems to be holding up well. The ESC is working great. Im still running NiMh and I havent bought a programming card yet for it, but it works flawlessly and I have not had the 1st problem out of it. It always runs cool and performs good. Id buy another in a heartbeat. If you are needing one, I think its hard to beat for the money. Id like to upgrade batteries soon. I havent had much time to run as much as i would like though. I started a new job a little over a month ago and I have been pretty busy. Plus, Im getting married in about 2 months so a lot of my time and $$ is going other places.
Eric
ORIGINAL: SyCo_VeNoM
Side note your truck still ripping it up? And how is that HK esc holding up cause I'm thinking of getting one for my savage .21 I converted due the the MM getting way too hot that I had in it (slaped it in a Jammin X1 CRT I'm converting which is alot lighter than the savage)
Side note your truck still ripping it up? And how is that HK esc holding up cause I'm thinking of getting one for my savage .21 I converted due the the MM getting way too hot that I had in it (slaped it in a Jammin X1 CRT I'm converting which is alot lighter than the savage)
Eric
sorry for the slight thread jack let the flame war resume
