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Custom made 1:10 RWD solid axle Escort MK2

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Old 08-18-2013, 03:46 PM
  #26  
Frederik_b
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I decided I was going to try a new fabrication method so I went to the hardware store/car parts:










Sheet metal, 3/16 and 1/4 steel brake lines, propane torch, and accessories. that will be a firts for me, I never even had a torch before.


I will be be actually soldering, not brazing, difference being I will use led/tin with flux core solder, instead of brass or silver like in brazing. Here is a thread discussing this:


http://www.scale4x4rc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74367




Fred

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Old 08-18-2013, 03:46 PM
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So I spent a couple hours playing with the steel tubes and sheet and it took a few tries before it actually held together. The solder would fall on the ground and not stick or suck in, until I somewhat got the right procedure, I think


Here is what worked for me:


- used a 3/16 file (same diameter as tubing) to file the tube and get a proper fit between the twopieces.
- dip the two pieces with flux paste everywhere you want the solder to go (in between the pieces as well as on a small lenght on the outer surface, it will make the solder reach farther on e pieces fr a stronger solder).
- heat until the flux all melts and the piece start changing color. For me it takes maybe 10 seconds?
- add the solder to the mix while heating, the solder should be sucked by the pieces.
- stop heating for a couple seconds, and then I added some solder where I want a thicker solder, where the two tubes meet.
- a kind of droplet forms, so I slightly reheat so it takes the shape I want and it goes where I want.
- let it cool (if you undo the vise everything might come apart as the solder is still liquid)
- clean with a rag and then buff/sand if like me your solder looks ugly


Here are some pictures of my first successful attempt, I just bent some 22 gage steel in an L, then tried to joint two pieces at an angle. Also made a T with 3/16 tube and attached this to the L. Not a real piece for my project, just some tests:








Came out real strong when done right. I am still testing what makes for a "right" solder though hahaha

By the way to solder the tube to the L bar, I slit the end of the tube in two with a metal saw, so it would slide on the L, and then tapped with a hammer to flatten the tube on the L. Of course I first sanded and put flux everywhere, before making the mechanical fit.


I use a bench vuse to hold the work, but I'll have to find those magnetic thingies that hold the pieces together, because the bench vise will not work for all pieces shapes.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:47 PM
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Now I used sheet metal wrapped around a 3/16 tube, solder, cut excess tube and voila some nice linkage mounting points!












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Old 08-18-2013, 03:47 PM
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Videos of the axle geometry!












Also in these pics/vids you can see the shocks mounting brackets on the axle, still have to drill them at proper location but first I want to design and make the part above the axle to hold the upper mounting point of the shocks.


I will complete the rear I think before I go and do the struts. There will most likely be sheetmetal and soldering involved in the front, with the engine bay and strut towers
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:48 PM
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I had to solder an additional piece to my shocks supports because the shocks would interfere with the upper linkage. Here is an inner and outer view of the modded bracket:








And some videos of the body mock up with frame to check suspension travel and clearance. It is exciting to see the body over the almost working suspension!




















The suspension action, when fully compressed and leaning to one side, reminds me of these kind of pics:


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Old 08-18-2013, 03:48 PM
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By the way, working with steel and solder is sooo cool, way easier than cutting aluminum with an alternate saw and filing the hell ou of it.


You just use sheet metal scissors to cut approximate shape, rectify on the bench grinder, file the edges, fold the piece using the bench vise if you need to.


Then for assembly, instead of drilling, and trying to mate approximately drilled holes, you prep for solder, flux, find a way to hold them together while yousolder them. It is very cool and pretty easy actually once you get used to it a bit.


Also for added scale look: I realized the parts started rusting after a couple of days lol


I wonder if brazing is much different/more complicated?
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Old 08-27-2013, 02:37 PM
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Stunning work you are putting down here! Also very nice to see how scale it is as i have owned a 1:1-scale mk2. Soldering looks very cool, this is something i would like to try but have never gotten to it.

On my 1:5-scale Escort i was wondering if i should do something like you have done on the front struts, but i couldn't quite figure it out and i think the legs in the shocks would be quite strong enough to be connected directly to the chassi and take the impacts from the ground while driving. I would have to make some larger legs then, but that is not easy either with having to make new seats for O-rings in the shock caps and many other things.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:09 PM
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Thanks Lars! I have never owned one, but there is something about these, they have that raw mechanical look and feel to it, if that makes any sense.

Yes on my 1/5th scale impreza project I also face the same strut "ruggedness" issue. My plan on the 1/5th scale macpherson is to custom make the struts from alu tubing, capped with large bolts I will machine to fit seals and hole for shock rod, but I have only done some drawings and no strut yet.

When I return to the 1/5th scale project I will probably revisit some parts now that I have found how to do some pretty strong solders!
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:14 PM
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Makes perfect sense! If i had all the machinery needed (actually i have, but not big enough for the task) i would make the whole strut and suspension to scale as on the original, but i will have to do with the A-arm setup for now. Looking forward to see more of both this and the 'preza!
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Old 09-04-2013, 04:35 AM
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Wow.....

ive got to check out the on road section more often..lol

im impressed bu the pure enginuity and attention to detail.... I actially can't wait to seem more...

im a huge steel bumper Ford fan, and always had a soft spot for the escort. Good memories of cruzing in my mates mk2
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Old 09-04-2013, 02:34 PM
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Thanks phmaximus! I'll try and do more on the rear end. Already made a tube to connect the upper side of the two rear shocks together, I now need to make a bracket to link that to the chassis. I think I'll do it with 3/16 brake line, kind of a tubular half-chassis. The shocks will have to stick up pretty high because they wont fit tucked behind the axles (because of the watt's linkage). If the shocks support looks a bit like a tubular chassis/cage it might look better, compared to a big shock tower.

Still need to find magnets to hold steel pieces together, I am having most of my soldering problems with keeping the parts from moving while soldering them/cooling off. Especially with thin steel sheets. I have found thin galvanized steel, once the galvanized coating buffed off it can be soldered just like regular steel. But being thin it tends to move while heating.

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Old 01-03-2014, 06:10 PM
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I have been doing more cardboard modeling to test how I will have to cut the sheetmetal to get as simple and effective design for the front of the chassis, and still somewhat look like the 1:1 chassis. Cardboard is easier to work to sort problems out, and can be done on the kitchen table during my little boy's nap


It is 3 pieces in the pictures, top of the strut area, side of the strut area, and front grille thingy. It will be bolted to the aluminum chassis at the bottom.


























I also had to narrow down the front frame a bit, there was not enough room for the strut and also the suspension arm was too short. With this model I was able to somewhat test the suspension movement with a short arm (screw directly in ball joint, held by my fingers while moving the strut lol) and it looks like the suspension travel and fender clearance will be all good.

here is another picture with first test of a firewall. Will need to cut some behind the wheel to allow the wheels to turn full lock.







Fred
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:52 PM
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This project looks awesome, I'm looking forward to seeing more.. Can you tell me where you sourced your car body from, I had several of these in the past which I got from retro racing in holland but cannot find them anywhere now!
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by R32GolfTA06 View Post
This project looks awesome, I'm looking forward to seeing more.. Can you tell me where you sourced your car body from, I had several of these in the past which I got from retro racing in holland but cannot find them anywhere now!
Thanks!! Thats also where I got mine, It looks like they are not doing business anymore? They have nothing on ebay. Actually, back when I received mine, it was damaged (crushed) from being incorrectly packaged, he said he would send me another back half (the most damaged part) and I coyld keep the bad one for paint practice, but he then stopped responding and never sent the body. So I just forced the body back to shape the best I could but there are still kinks. Very nicely done bodies but they (he?) does not look very professionnal. Let us know if you find them available again somewhere, all other mk2 bodies look bad compared to these.
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:42 PM
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Hey bud... Tell me to shut up if u want lol

but I was looking at the 4 link rear end u have made... Are u sure u want to run 0% antisquat?
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:19 PM
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Dont worry, I welcome all comments ! You mean the angle between the upper and lower links and where they intersect, right? That's a very good question and I forgot to explain.

I initially planned to have an angle (the distance between top and bottom joints on the chassis closer to each other than on the axle side) but on my first working model I immediately noticed this causes binding when rotating the axle (body roll). I never thought about it before this test, but after experiencing it I googled "four link binding" or something like that and realized it is normal with this design.

It makes sense when you think about it geometrically speaking though. The only way to achieve a freely moving axle with no binding was to make the links parallel. But I will still get somewhat of an anti squat or pro squat by playing with the ride height or chassis mounting location, if that makes any sense. I actually want the thing to plenty squat and roll for more realism haha

On 1:1 scale cars they use bushings in the links to allow compliance and prevent damage due to binding. Maybe thats what I should do lol

Last edited by Frederik_b; 01-04-2014 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Frederik_b View Post
Thanks!! Thats also where I got mine, It looks like they are not doing business anymore? They have nothing on ebay. Actually, back when I received mine, it was damaged (crushed) from being incorrectly packaged, he said he would send me another back half (the most damaged part) and I coyld keep the bad one for paint practice, but he then stopped responding and never sent the body. So I just forced the body back to shape the best I could but there are still kinks. Very nicely done bodies but they (he?) does not look very professionnal. Let us know if you find them available again somewhere, all other mk2 bodies look bad compared to these.
yep, he seemed to not be making the profits he wanted and went out of business. I found him good and reliable and if I had any problems he either discounted or sent replacements..I do occasionally see one on eBay that is in decent used condition but have never come across anyone else that has them in stock or is selling them. I am surprised no rc company has these as they are fantastic shells so it's sucks a bit..I dudnt look after mine when I had them as I assumed like anyone would, they would be readily available.. So I am prepared to have to spend decent cash to buy one if one does come up somewhere along the way.
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:53 AM
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Yes that's sad, hopefully he figures out something to do them again. And send me my back half / respond to my messages hahahaha No seriously I hope he can get back to making these awesome shells...
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Frederik_b View Post
Yes that's sad, hopefully he figures out something to do them again. And send me my back half / respond to my messages hahahaha No seriously I hope he can get back to making these awesome shells...
Did he hand make them himself? That would explain why they can't be sourced then! Modelsports website were selling them but they say on their website 'no longer available' so I'm guessing they got them from retroracing too :-(
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:29 AM
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Yes he (retroracing) made them, he was not only a reseller, so if he stopped then they wont be anywhere else I guess.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:47 AM
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My guess is the kamtec (spelling?) shells selling for cheaper were a problem. People were complaining about the lack of window masks, door trim decals etc. I dont care for those as I will gladly pain the trim myself and would rather have the perfectly scale body.

A lot of people does not seem to notice the huge difference in accuracy between the retroracing shells and other escort shells. Like how the rear bumper, front bumper, and most importantly the side door and fenders, all have their lower portion coming back towards the inside for a proper and scale accurate shape. The vertically flat sides of the kamtec shells completely throw off the scale look imho.
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Old 01-05-2014, 02:11 PM
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I agree, the kamtec look cheap and rubbish. I asked retro racing if he would sell shell only without wheels etc at a cheaper price but he wasn't interested, but it wasn't all bad because I made some money back selling the endless amount of wheels I didn't need/want, that came with the shells.
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Frederik_b View Post
Dont worry, I welcome all comments ! You mean the angle between the upper and lower links and where they intersect, right? That's a very good question and I forgot to explain.

I initially planned to have an angle (the distance between top and bottom joints on the chassis closer to each other than on the axle side) but on my first working model I immediately noticed this causes binding when rotating the axle (body roll). I never thought about it before this test, but after experiencing it I googled "four link binding" or something like that and realized it is normal with this design.

It makes sense when you think about it geometrically speaking though. The only way to achieve a freely moving axle with no binding was to make the links parallel. But I will still get somewhat of an anti squat or pro squat by playing with the ride height or chassis mounting location, if that makes any sense. I actually want the thing to plenty squat and roll for more realism haha

On 1:1 scale cars they use bushings in the links to allow compliance and prevent damage due to binding. Maybe thats what I should do lol
I'm still learning suspension setups, but from what I've seen, link length does not effect antisquat, but effects deflection and pinion angles. When I say anti squat I'm referring to the forces from torque only that can cause the chassis to lift or lower.
0% antisquat will mean It won't adsorbed any of the torque forces. 100% in theory will adsorbed all of the torque forces. Anything under 100% will lower and anything above 100% will raise the chassis. Allso antisquat does not take into effect the weight transference under acceleration...so generally even with 100% u will get some squat from the weight transferring.
antisquat is the triangulation of the links and the location of the triangles tip compared to the vehicles instant centre line calculated with wheel base and COG.... Hope that's making sence so far....

so basically if the links intercept above the "instant centre" line it's running positive antisquat and if its below its negative antisquat.

and those links can intercept any where along that line for 100% antisquat...
and it allso shows that link length does not really effect it. And in theory the longer the links the less deflection and less variation of the pinion angle...

as I said I'm still learning, so I hope this makes sense...


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Old 01-07-2014, 05:29 AM
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Hi phmaximus!

I also find suspension systems extremely interesting and keep learning as I do projects, and I enjoy reading and discussing the setups. Yes it makes perfect sense, actually I had a similar picture in mind when trying to explain how my setup would bind if the links are not parallel (when viewed from the side), here is the pic I was thinking of:






Below is another picture showing the parallelism and the effect on the instant center: In my setup they are parallel just like that. When I was saying distance between links I meant the vertical distance, in other words, the angle of the upper link relative to the lower link.



In my scenario (parallel links) the only parameter affecting the squat or lift seems to be the angle of the two parallel arms, and the instant center is not determined by the location where the arms axis extent because they never meet but it still look like the same logic, if the arms point lower than the CG it squats, if they point higher it is anti squat. So in other words I would need to shift the chassis mounting points up or down to alter the anti squat or pro squat (or rise/lower the car ride height). Right now I do not have room to alter those positions because the two links are not close enough to each other. I would need to re-do the axle attachments to make them closer (maybe by bringing the links forward to the axle instead of top and bottom).

So the main reason for having the two links parallel is the binding. It is hard to explain, but the triangle the two links form also makes a solid triangle that prevent the axle from twisting because there is another triangle on the other end of the axle. I would have liked to have an angle because all race cars actually have one but it binds quite a lot when you do. I'll try to find a link explaining the binding thing.

Pictures source:
http://motorsportsvillage.com/forum/...=5766&start=75

Fred

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Old 01-07-2014, 07:31 PM
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Oh wow, thanyou, I had no idea that with parellel links u could get antisquat.... And by the looks its just as easy to calculate as the triangulated links.... Once again thankyou, I'm going to have a big think now about how I'm going to do the top links on my crawler...

please if u can post up some info on binding? I still haven't quite worked it out.
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