hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

I thought it would be interesting to reproduce the recent thread I had with the Real Flight G3 Support discussion board. This clearly shows the tone of Real Flight G3 Support's responses to problems people are having with the recent G3 release. I'm unable to respond to the last condencending response because the Administrator/author of the post subsequently closed the thread. Take it for what it's worth.

BTW, if I'm way off base here let me know. I am, understandably, a little upset I had to spend $299.99 for a high-end graphics card to solve problems that where "KNOWN BUGS" because the vendor chose not to CLEARLY disclose these bugs in their discussion board. Early discussions on this board and particularly on the GP RealFlight G3 Support Discussion Board indicated that most of the problems were related to video cards not being 100% DirectX 9.0 compatible. I was also told that the "on-board" nVidia cards has problems which make them incompatible with G3 -- at no time did they tell me they were, in fact, bugs in the RealFlight G3 software that were being worked on. Just for the record: Hardware requirements documented in the G3 package states the video has to be 100% compatible with DirectX 9.0 and have at least 64mByte of membory. The NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 64M IS 100% DirectX 9.0 compatible; it has 64mByte of memory.

02-07-2005, 09:33 PM : hilleyja
nVidia Graphics

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, my desktop nVidia did not render backgrounds and aircraft colors and physics for the Yak was way beyond my control on high rates. My solution was to update graphics card from on-board nVidia to a Radeon 9800. It then worked fine. I have since re-installed G3 on my laptop. It has an on-board nVidia GeForce4 440 Go 64M card and it now has the same problems my desktop did. Unfortunately, I don't have the same option of upgrading my video card. I also tried to download the latest version but cannot do so because I previously registered from my desktop.

Solutions please???


02-08-2005, 12:43 PM : Joe Teibel (Administrator)
Did you update your laptops video drivers? I have that same card and aside from a couple of known bugs, after updating the graphics driver things worked fine.


02-09-2005, 01:35 PM : hilleyja
I have the latest driver available, version 4.7.1.6. I also have the latest DirctX version installed. The graphics for airplane does not resolve and in some of the airports the sky is a weird pattern and the graphics on the airplane is a checkerboard design that acts somewhat like it is translucent. I'm not sure if it is related, but the Yak is virtually uncontrollable in hi-rates and barely controllable in lo-rates.

BTW, this is exactly the problem I had on my desktop before I installed a Radeon 9800 video card -- it also had an NVIDIA GeForce4 4400 64M video. (They are both HPs so am assuming it is an HP standard.)

This is my hardware configuration -- you can readilly see I'm not trying to run G3 on a minimal machine :

CPU: AMD 64 - 3400 (The current state of art AMD processor)
Memory: 1Gbyte DDRAM
HD: 80Gbytes
Display: 15.4 Widescreen/Ultra Bright LCD
OS; Windows XP Home Version

Also, what do you mean by "known bugs"?


I don't know about the rest of you, I found this response to be condenscending and evasive. Wait till you see his next take on this. At this point he directed me to go through an elaborite sequence to try to evaluate my problem; I did not do so because I was certain at this point my problem was far from unique, since I had the same problem with two very different computers running the same VERY COMMON video card (NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 64M).
02-09-2005, 02:13 PM : Joe Teibel (Administrator)
Known bugs = bugs that we know about and are working on.

Follow these instructions and I will try to help you get this figured out.


Please explain this to me. Based on my experience with 2 separate computers the only way this work correctly was if he was running the update version of Real Flight G3. "I have that same card and aside from a couple of known bugs, after updating the graphics driver things worked fine". I did update the graphic drivers and things still did not work fine. I like the way you phrased: "a list of fixed bugs somewhere on this group" Why do you use an argument you cannot qualify? BTW, I may be just plain stupid, but I have been unable to find this list of "known bugs". Where might it be? Well, I did find the list of "known bugs" repaired by the latest BETA Release. There is absolutely nothing in the list that even hints at the graphics problem with the NVIDIA card, yet, miraculously ALL of my stated problems dissappeared when I installed the update -- Go Figure!!!.
Today, 01:26 PM : Highflyer
"Also, what do you mean by "known bugs"? " Should have been phrased "Also, what are the "known bugs"? I read the statement and would have answered just as he did. There is a list of known bugs and a list of fixed bugs somewhere on this group I believe.


This is the response that really irks me. This is the kind of support your going to get from Great Plain's support representative for Real Flight G3, so take it into consideratioin when you have problems with your product and need help.
02-09-2005, 02:13 PM : Joe Teibel (Administrator)
I'm not sure why you are assuming that I was stringing you along - I have been trying to help you from the start. If you had posted the information requested in this post (which is now at the top of this forum but was formally an announcement on all G3 forums) right from the start, I could have told you that the update would solve your problem.

Once again, I could have told you this and made the process much simpler had you posted the information requested when seeking support.

I have no idea what "someone" is asking for when they ask "what do you mean by known bugs". That question can be interpreted several ways. I don't know what your experience level is and so I choose the simplest answer assuming that if you wanted a different answer you would convey that to me, politely.

I'm sorry I wasn't able to help you to your satisifaction and I'm glad you're enjoying the sim.

doja93

I am the Knife Edge forum admin who made the above posts and I stand by them. I don't work for Great Planes. Great Planes is *not* affiliated with the Knife Edge discussion boards in any way. I work for Knife Edge software and help people on the forums when I have the time.

Once again, I'm sorry my help was not to your satisfaction. Just wanted to get the facts straight about the company running the forum.

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

Now that is good news. I have a very healthy investment in Great Plains, as you can see from my AVATAR. My experience on the Real Flight support forum had me worried about my future relationship. I can now breath a sigh of relief and look forward to future Great Plain's airplane products. Alas, my current 4th version of GREAT PLAINS/KNIFE EDGE Real Flight will be the last. Even now, I only retain it because I mistakenly gave my stepson my G2 version.

BTW, since it is obvious, to me, the Real Flight Support discussion forum is not a useful place to get solutions to problems, I will post any and all problems I find on this forum and continue to review the Real Flight Support site for fixes, if they post any -- if they don't bar me from it.

jhimmel

Jim, I'm not sure I see what the problem is. Sometimes this written form of communication causes misunderstandings. I think you may be reading something into his responses. That's just my opinion - you asked.

Jim H.

r1derbike

Hilleyja:

Reading the specs of RF G3 months ago, left me with one very apparent given; the sim begs for a high-end computer and graphics engine to utilize it to its full potential. I have an AMD 64 3200+ machine, and had to purchase a high-end graphics card (my nVidia 5200 graphics card was woefully inadequate, I knew this) to get "just adequate" performance, in my opinion. This card was $400.00.

I'm presently building a system with FX-55 processor, dual 6800 Ultra video in SLI mode to use the sim to full advantage, but I needed the system for other gaming, amateur (ham) radio, and business applications.

I'm heavy into digital communications modes on amateur radio, and I sorely needed a super-computer to handle everything. Price tag, nearly $2,000 bucks for just the tower.

The bottom line is I “knew� my system wouldn’t operate G3 satisfactorily, or other modern games either.

Some software I’ve seen tries to be ATTAP (all things to all people), and of course problems always arise because there is no way to test software on every system made, and all iterations of those systems.

I’m sure G3 techs would be happy to help you, if you’d let them. Sometimes, I have to put my ego in my back pocket, and be a part of the solution, instead of part of the problem.

Charles

ehart

I think you over-reacted a bit here Jim.

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

BTW, the NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 64M satisfied their requirements from day one -- a bug in their G3 software prevented it from working.

Guess what? The update they just released works just fine on my laptop with the NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 64M card, same card on my desktop before upgrading it to a Radeon 9800. BTW. the ONLY reason I needed the Radeon 9800 card.

While we are on the subject of letting them help work my problem. I actually first brought this up before Xmas and was essentially lead to believe my video card was not compatible with G3 -- resulting in my layout of $299.99 for the ATI Radeon 9800 card, which I now find I didn't need after all.

The bottom line is if they had been straight with their customers then, a lot of us would not have felt we needed to upgrade our video cards, rather, all we needed to do is be a little patient waiting for them to fix the bug they chose to hide.

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

Ok, maybe I did. Does that explain why they treated my problem as if it was totally unique, when they knew full well they were working that problem with their update?

BTW, I have only begun to delve into this subject. One of my biggest questions is the significant lack of discussions on this subject on both this forum and the Real Flight Support discussion forum AND why at least one individual I know of was offered and given a full refund of the purchase price of G3 and allowed to keep it in exchange for ending their public complaints.

r1derbike

Jim:

Have you called Jim Bourke at RealFlight and talked with him directly about your concerns? I have seen him post on other threads asking customers to call him. I hope you got your money back on the video card, if not needed.

I had issues with my interlink controller, as you may recall, so I've been on the far side of the disappointment meter too. Was lucky and fixed both the problems with it. I do recall another Jim (Davis?) who was asked to call Mr. Bourke about his concerns regarding the sim. Have you tried the CEO route?

Sometimes talking to the "head honcho" is needed. Good luck...

Charles

jhimmel

That's your conclusion. One that I do not share because it makes no sense. They made some changes to the code to allow it to work on more cards. Your particular card was affected. I'm sure if they knew that they were going to be able to make your specific problem with your specific card go away, they would have told you that. I think you are jumping to a lot of far-reaching conclusions.

Jim H.

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

Ok, I'm going to change the direction a little on this thread.

1) I'm looking for responses from those that have similar equipment, specifically the NVIDIA GeForce4 440. My purpose is to determine whether I truly do have a very popular video card and as such would normally be a target for the developers of G3 to pay attention to. Let me know is you have had problems with G3. If you have please describe the problems in your own words. Here is my description of the problems I had:

Installation of G3 went off with NO problems for both my HP a330N Desktop (NVIDIA GeForce4 64Mbyte) and HP z5380 Laptop (also NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 46Mbyte). Launching the program was also no problem. When I first got my flight screen I immediately noticed the airplane was a 3 dimensioned solid grayish color -- no distinctive color details. I didn't think too much at first. I played with the default airplane and then switched to another airplane -- it also had no color details. I then switch the airport to the Rainbow Canyon. The airplane took on a plaid-type red, black, and white facade. The sky was a blotchy dark black and gray mix. When I tried to fly the airplane I got the distinct impression it was translucent to the sky. The combination of the sky and airplane facade made it almost impossible to keep track of its location. At this point I quit trying, did some preliminary research on both the Great Plains support site and RC Universe. In both locations I was being told that the video card was incompatible with G3. I installed the ATI Radeon 9800 128Mbyte card on the a330N Desktop -- ALL problems dissapeared. When I installed it on the z5380 Laptop I had the VERY SAME set of problems. Downloading and installed the G3 update fixed ALL the problems.

OK, here is what I'm looking for. Does the problem description above duplicate the problems others, with NVIDIA GeForce4, have/had? If so did you report these problems to the G3 support site? Did those thread entries get removed from the support site and never showed up? (NOTE: When I first noticed problems before Xmas I did document them on the G3 support discussion forum -- you won't find those entries today)

Respond and comment if you can. If you cannot respond and comment for SOME REASON???? at least respond to my next thread that contains a pole.

r1derbike

Jim:

With all due respect, after reading your poll, I'm reminded of the old "If A=B, and B=C, then A=C" teaching when Algebra was introduced into the public school system many years ago.

Frankly, the poll is convoluted and seems only to serve a self-fulfilling prophecy that you feel you have been wronged by G3 support.

If indeed this is your intention, then your efforts may be served better if you contact Jim Bourke at KnifeEdge Software, or the CEO of Great Planes/RealFlight, for resolution.

Charles

joeb102072

My Feedback: (9)

IT cannot be any secret even though no one company will out right say it that they all are running a race to beat the next guy at their own game. Seeing a premature release of a program that hasent been fully debugged could be considered par for the course. Being the first sim to hit the market has its advantages and disadvanteges. I believe RF held the market on sims because of who they were not what they were. When AFP saw the mistakes they made in their programming they used to their advantage by making their sim all that much better physics wise. Now RF is behind the 8 ball and loosing their sales to a better sim, IMO. So its MO that they jumped the gun to get this release of RF G3 out and be more competitive to the sim market while people who owned previous versions of RF could upgrade and not swing for the whole lot. RF would then not loose anymore customers as they clearly were, and supposedly have a competitive sim. Having a support team in general to me means that there are known bugs in the system otherwise why else would they need the team to begin with. Anybody can trouble shoot an install process, they shouldnt need a "team" for that. But I wouldnt expect that they would outright admit to it. Now look at what has happened AFP has gone deluxe and blown away the competition again. There new version rocks above RF and always has, of course thats IMO.

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

You really think so? I certainly wouldn't call it convoluted. Each entry in the poll is distinct, some of them are inclusive of other entries -- therein lies the reason for allowing more than one selection. Take into consideration you can only have 10 items in the poll. I admit the 1st 8 poll items are geared toward the problems I have had and the responses I received from G3 support. If the poll entry describes THEIR experience how is it self-fulfilling? The intent is to find out if my problems and responses are unique or common. Having said that, I did provide 2 items for positive reports in the poll. The 9th item is for those that have had no problems with the NVIDIA GeForce4 video and the 10th item is for those that had problems but were solved by updating the video drivers. This last item echoes what I was told by the G3 Administrator. He told me he had the exact same video card and all his problems were solved by updating the drivers. He did caviate that statement with "except for a couple of known bugs". When I asked him what he meant by known bugs he chose to treat my question evasively by answering: "Known bugs are bugs we are aware of and are working on." If you really want to know what got me fired up, it was his subsequent response when I asked him why he was being evasive AND the complete problem solution inherent with the G3 update -- I didn't have to shell out another $299.99 for a video card I had no other use for other than as a response when told the NVIDIA card was not compatible with RealFlight G3.

BTW, he never did explain WHAT the "known bugs" were.

Here's another question for you. At what point should I have contacted this "Jim Bourke" at KnifeEdge Software? His contact information was never offered to me; only became aware of it after I started my CRUSADE. Also, the G3 Administrator, a KnifeEdge Software employee, made a point to advise me the KnifeEdge Software and Great Plains had nothing to do with each other. What is that supposed to mean when it is clear the software development for RealFlight G3, a Great Plains product, was conducted by KnifeEdge software? Given that information, how was communicating with the CEO of GP/RealFlight going to help me.

jaafit

Hi, I'm Japhet Stevens from Knife Edge Software, the developers of RealFlight. I'm sorry to hear that you've had trouble with RealFlight G3. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to assist you. Unfortunately, the GeForce 4 card support was broken in the initial release of RealFlight G3. We have since fixed this issue and are also working on other compatibility problems as they are noticed by our customers.

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

Please explain where you all reported this problem to your customers. Go over your own support discussion forum and see how your adminstrator responded to my queries on the subject. He treated my problem like it was unusual and unique and rather than tell me the problem was known and being worked on he chose to have me go through the entire analysis mode with the contention he needed that info to help me. By that time I had already seen the EXACT problem on 2 separate computers, both with the same video card. I also came across another G3 support discussion thread, indirectly through RC Universe, that indicated there existed a beta update to correct NVIDIA video issues. The same administrator that attempted to send me on a wild goose chase was the author of that.

None of the above explains why I had to purchase a $299.99 high-end 3D video card because I was initially told, through your G3 support discussion, the NVIDIA video card, bundled on the HP computer motherboard, was incompatible with RealFlight G3 ostensibly because of memory sharing. This discussion occurred between Xmas and New Years. I since searched your G3 support discussion forum and could not locate that thread anywhere -- why was it removed? Possibly when you realized the problem with the NVIDIA card was not compatibility but rather a bug in G3 and you did not want to fire up all the people that already foot the bill for the high end video card replacements?

BTW, this is the FIRST time I have seen someone from Knife Edge Software acknowledge that they knew a bug problem existed with the GeForce 4 card support. Why did your administrator tell me he had the exact same card and only needed to update the drivers to fix the problem? (Again, check your own thread: http://www.gpsoftware.com/discussion board.htm) This same adminstrator piped into this thread stating he stood by his responses: Did you know about the NVIDIA bugs in G3 before 2/9/2005? If so, why did this same administrator decided to just take a swipe at me rather than address my issues in this G3 Support thread: http://www.gpsoftware.com/discussionboard.htm

Did you know about the NVIDIA bugs in G3 before 2/11/2005? If so, why did this same administrator decide to be highly evasive with me and ultimately just took some more shots at me rather than address my issues in this G3 Support thread: http://www.gpsoftware.com/discussionboard.htm

r1derbike

Restating the obvious, Jim, you should have contacted Jim Bourke at Knife Edge software when you felt you had no resolution to your problem. You should have contacted the Big Kahuna at Great Planes when you felt you had no resolution to your problem.

Pissing-and-moaning on third-party sim sites only gets noticed if employees of both companies happen to read these forums, and doesn't do anything about getting your complaints expedited and routed, to the proper channels, in a timely manner.

I'm happy that a representative from KnifeEdge has finally responded to the blather. Maybe you may get resolution/correction to your problems now.

Charles

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

Heck, can't you read between the lines? This is not blather -- its a CRUSADE!!!!

b.bixel

My Feedback: (123)

[/quote]

Heck, can't you read between the lines? This is not blather -- its a CRUSADE!!!!
[/quote]


Yes, most of us can tell. And with all due respect I bet most of us are getting sick of it. I'm sure most are very sympathetic (including myself) to you wasting hobby bucks which could have been used elsewhere. That just sucks, and I'd be pissed too!

However, it's time for everyone to be a good protagonist and help solve the problems with G3 rather than be an antagonist, which just doesn't help at all. It especially doesn't help those who have purchased the software already.

Regards,
Bart
Not a G3 rep of any kind.

jaafit

Whether this is a crusade or not, you do have a right to be upset. You spent a lot of money replacing a piece of hardware that would've been fixed with an update -- all because of some miscommunication. Sorry about that.

You asked me to explain where we reported this problem to our customers. [link=http://12.156.2.54/forums/showpost.php?p=32707&postcount=1]Here[/link] is where we made the announcement about our first update. Was that the update that fixed your problem?

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

Actually yes it is and, given the 12/01/04 date, it would have kept me from having to purchase that $299.99 card. How was I supposed to find this without your link? I also tried to back track your above link and could not figure out what thread it is in.

Aside from that, why didn't the SUPPORT thread administrator tell me about the GeForce video bug and the fact it was being worked? He can't claim I didn't provide enough information. I told him upfront I was dealing with an NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 64M card, on two different computers, and gave a good description of the problem. I can't believe I'm the ONLY RealFlight G3 customer running on a recent HP desktop and laptop computer. From what I have been able to determine, HP has standardized on the NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 64M on quite a number of their desktop and laptop computers. These are the bargain high-end computers you can buy from virtually all of the discount electronic stores (I bought my desktop from Circuit City and my laptop from CompUSA).

Look at the threads, the MISCOMMUNICATION was consistent. At no time did that individual even hint at knowledge of a bug that fit my problem description. EXCEPT, telling me he had the same video card and fixed it with a driver update. His evasive "couple of known bugs" made me assume my problem was in my computer/configuration. His "known bugs are bugs we are aware of and are working" answer to my question "What do you mean by known bugs" was, in my opinion, condescending and evasive. Why he chose to respond to me like that I don't know -- he certainly was not TRYING to help me, rather he just enflamed me.

jaafit

We made some bad assumptions in our initial efforts to help you and we're really sorry that it caused you such grief. Is there anything else I can do to help?

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

Well, since ultimately I have RealFlight G3 running just fine on both my desktop (Original software with no updates -- HP a330n, 512MByte memory, ATI Radeon 9800 128 video) and laptop (Original software wth latest updates -- HP AMD 64 3400, 1GByte memory, NVIDIA GeForce4 440 Go 64m video, 15.4 bright widescreen) there's not much you can do for me now. I already spent the money on the ATI Radeon 9800 video card and already experienced your G3 Support administrator's condenscending attitude. Now I have one of the most powerful 3D video cards on my desktop -- it certainly makes my internet browsing and word processing experience OUT-OF-THIS-WORLD; once in a great while I might run RealFlight G3 on it, when its not being run on the laptop.

r1derbike

Jim:

I bet you could sell that card on ebay...

Charles

hilleyja

My Feedback: (3)

Actually not a bad idea.