RC Fuels Nitromethane, Castor Oil, Synthetic, heli fuel, 4 stroke, etc...Fuel Q&A is here!

Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

Reply
Old 02-26-2012, 12:59 PM
  #1
1QwkSport2.5r
Thread Starter
 
1QwkSport2.5r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cottage Grove, MN
Posts: 8,772
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

Besides klotz, what other synthetic oils available in the US will mix with methanol and are of good quality? I've entertained the idea of testing some different fuel mixes for my RC cars and my ringed aero engines.

1QwkSport2.5r is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2012, 01:39 PM
  #2
Red B.
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Jonkoping, SWEDEN
Posts: 1,301
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

Motul Micro should be available in the U.S., other than that I guess you have to order from Europe. There are several brands available over here.
Red B. is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2012, 02:00 PM
  #3
JCINTEXAS
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Smithville, TX
Posts: 718
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

Synthetic jet turbine oils such as BP2380 and Aeroshell are miscible (capable of being mixed; specifically : capable of mixing in any ratio without separation of two phases)...and are widely available at airports. These are not cheap however. If you can find any Poly-Alkylated glycols such as used to be available from Union Carbide...these were excellent oils for glow engines. Klotz has been used successfully for many years in glow fuels and work well. Several of the popular glow fuels use Klotz as the main lubricant. Years ago I tried several synthetic car and motorcycle oils such as Mobil 1 and Amsoil. These will not mix with methanol. From the standpoint of cost and availability, my advice is to use Klotz.
Best Regards
JC (FASSTFLIER)
JCINTEXAS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2012, 02:44 PM
  #4
Sport_Pilot
 
Sport_Pilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Acworth, GA
Posts: 16,889
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

Morgans sells a good synthetic oil and for a lot less than Klotz.
Sport_Pilot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2012, 03:12 PM
  #5
1QwkSport2.5r
Thread Starter
 
1QwkSport2.5r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cottage Grove, MN
Posts: 8,772
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

I've been using all castor for a little over a year and I've had my engines running far better than ever before. They tune like a dream and the exhaust smells nicer. I was merely looking to experiment a little, but probably not a lot since klotz is 2-3 times the cost of my SIG castor.

If it costs more than $7-8/quart it isn't cost effective for me to use much of it. I would probably use 85% castor and 15% synthetic only for carbon control.
1QwkSport2.5r is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2012, 04:51 PM
  #6
JCINTEXAS
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Smithville, TX
Posts: 718
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

What quantity of Sig castor do you purchase?
What is the price?
JC
JCINTEXAS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2012, 06:32 PM
  #7
1QwkSport2.5r
Thread Starter
 
1QwkSport2.5r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cottage Grove, MN
Posts: 8,772
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JCINTEXAS

What quantity of Sig castor do you purchase?
What is the price?
JC
I buy it by the gallon directly from SIG. http://www.sigmfg.com/cgi-bin/dpsmar...FV5.html?E+Sig

I think I paid $23 + $11 shipping.
1QwkSport2.5r is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2012, 06:37 PM
  #8
JCINTEXAS
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Smithville, TX
Posts: 718
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

Unless you are getting your methanol and nitro for free...seems like it would be cheaper to buy regular commercial brand fuel rather than brew your own.
JC
JCINTEXAS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2012, 08:40 PM
  #9
1QwkSport2.5r
Thread Starter
 
1QwkSport2.5r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cottage Grove, MN
Posts: 8,772
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JCINTEXAS

Unless you are getting your methanol and nitro for free...seems like it would be cheaper to buy regular commercial brand fuel rather than brew your own.
JC
For me in my area, it costs me almost half to make my own fuel versus buying it premixed. Moreover, several of my engines are either bushed crankshaft engines, or lapped iron/steel. These engines need full castor to run right. Do I order 4 gallons at a time for $25 a gallon, add standard shipping, and add hazmat fees. Now I'm at $35 a gallon which is what I would pay for a gallon of 5/20 sig fuel at the LHS. Mix my own for $20 a gallon or less, or pay $32-$39 a gallon plus tax.

Adding synthetic oil to the mix and my cost jumps $2-3 a gallon. For me it's a huge cost savings. I burn 3-5 gallons a season in my cars and airboats.
1QwkSport2.5r is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2012, 09:49 PM
  #10
CustomPC
 
CustomPC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SydneyNSW, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 932
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

There are 2 Ester based synthetics that mix with Methanol.

I use SPL avenger in my glow engines (http://www.splube.com).

There is also Redline Alcohol Pre-Mix 2-stroke oil (http://www.redlineoil.com). I have a gallon of it but have not yet tried it.

Then there are the more common PAG based oils such as coolpower and klotz.
CustomPC is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2012, 06:00 AM
  #11
1QwkSport2.5r
Thread Starter
 
1QwkSport2.5r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cottage Grove, MN
Posts: 8,772
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

So for a layman like myself, what's the difference between ester and pag based oils? Wouldn't you want ester based over pag?
1QwkSport2.5r is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2012, 02:45 PM
  #12
Jezmo
 
Jezmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 2,132
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

For those looking for a source of PAG oil try the friendly neighborhood auto parts. They sell PAG oil for A/C systems in several grades of viscosity.
Jezmo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2012, 05:48 PM
  #13
jimmyjames213
 
jimmyjames213's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: L
Posts: 1,655
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

http://www.robertskartshop.com/p/oil_engine/Thor-L.html , i use this, i would not call it "high quality" but the engines run fine on a 50/50% synthetic/castor mix, costs me about 7 bucks a gallon for 0% nitro
it mixes with metho and stays mixed for months, my only complaint is it smells weird/bad
jimmyjames213 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2012, 08:07 AM
  #14
1QwkSport2.5r
Thread Starter
 
1QwkSport2.5r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cottage Grove, MN
Posts: 8,772
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jezmo

For those looking for a source of PAG oil try the friendly neighborhood auto parts. They sell PAG oil for A/C systems in several grades of viscosity.
Aren't those PAG oils used in A/C systems pretty thin viscosity (even the "thicker" ones?) Also, are all PAG oils soluble in methanol? Have you tried this, and at what oil concentration will the oil seperate from the methanol?

I'm curious to experiment, but I dont want to use the wrong oil and burn my engine up.
1QwkSport2.5r is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 05:54 AM
  #15
SrTelemaster150
 
SrTelemaster150's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Brasher Falls, NY
Posts: 3,541
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JCINTEXAS

Unless you are getting your methanol and nitro for free...seems like it would be cheaper to buy regular commercial brand fuel rather than brew your own.
JC
Do I order 4 gallons at a time for $25 a gallon, add standard shipping, and add hazmat fees. Now I'm at $35 a gallon which is what I would pay for a gallon of 5/20 sig fuel at the LHS. Adding synthetic oil to the mix and my cost jumps $2-3 a gallon. For me it's a huge cost savings. I burn 3-5 gallons a season in my cars and airboats.

I just got off the phone W/SIG. There is NO HAZMAT fee for gallons of KLOTZ!

I checked because I am experimenting W/E85 in my Saito 4 strokes & want to use KLOTZ.

I would not think that castor or other oils would differ.

BTW: Order 6 gallons & a few other items to total $150 & get free shipping.

Then your castor oil will only cost you $22.99 a gallon.
SrTelemaster150 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 12:27 PM
  #16
earlwb
 
earlwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 5,968
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

Here in the USA they use some of the various Poly-Alkylated glycols synthetic oils in the model airplane fuel. Union Carbide and someone else made or make it. They never really tried to improve on the oil formula as its primary purpose is for commercial refridgeration systems. I assume one can get the oil from many sources that repair or cater to the commercial refridgeration systems and repair.

Someone many years ago discovered it mixed with methanol and that started the interested and its use in glow fuel. But the synthetic oil has a lower temperature than castor oil at which it breaks down into other substances that actually burn and provide more power. Thus when you lean out the engine, it suddenly gets a quick boost in power and then promptly destroys itself as the oil stops lubricating it.

Now in Europe they did develop some better synthetic oils, but no one really imports them into the USA, as the existing oils work fine in the air conditioning systems, and are lower in cost. So they have no interest in importing the oil. Our model airplane fuel interests and amounts used barely interest the suppliers.

Is it cheaper to buy from Klotz or Sig to get Klotz oils?


earlwb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2012, 02:06 PM
  #17
1QwkSport2.5r
Thread Starter
 
1QwkSport2.5r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cottage Grove, MN
Posts: 8,772
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

Quote:
ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JCINTEXAS

Unless you are getting your methanol and nitro for free...seems like it would be cheaper to buy regular commercial brand fuel rather than brew your own.
JC
Do I order 4 gallons at a time for $25 a gallon, add standard shipping, and add hazmat fees. Now I'm at $35 a gallon which is what I would pay for a gallon of 5/20 sig fuel at the LHS. Adding synthetic oil to the mix and my cost jumps $2-3 a gallon. For me it's a huge cost savings. I burn 3-5 gallons a season in my cars and airboats.

I just got off the phone W/SIG. There is NO HAZMAT fee for gallons of KLOTZ!

I checked because I am experimenting W/E85 in my Saito 4 strokes & want to use KLOTZ.

I would not think that castor or other oils would differ.

BTW: Order 6 gallons & a few other items to total $150 & get free shipping.

Then your castor oil will only cost you $22.99 a gallon.
I should have clarified that post a little better. What I should have said was "Do I order 4 gallons of fuel at $25 a gallon...." etc. The hazmat fee applied to cases up to 4 gallons of mixed fuel, but NOT of the oil. I didnt mean to include the oil as having hazmat fees tacked on.

My engines seem to like the castor diet, though my cars might run a little faster with a 50/50 mix of castor/synthetic. I'm not going to jump into this right now as I have a few jugs of fuel mixed up already.

1 Gallon of castor lasts me all season and then some.
1QwkSport2.5r is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2012, 05:29 AM
  #18
earlwb
 
earlwb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 5,968
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

Many of the RC car specific glow fuels have a lot less oil in them. Sometimes as little as 8% oil in the fuel. So they get the extra power by having more methanol and nitromethane in the fuel as compared to model airplane glow fuel with 16% to 25% oil in it.

I think the RC car fuels evolved like that over time as the RC car people kept wanting more power and speed out of the engines. Plus RC car engines usually have a very short life anyway.

Anyway, it is why I always tell people to not use car fuel in a model airplane engine. When you think about it, a RC car engine doesn't go full throttle for every long, they usually run in the midrange throttle range a lot with short WOT bursts for the straightaway. So the engine tends to load up with extra oil at low throttle settings and blows it all out on the WOT burst, then repeats the cycle around the track. Someone a long time ago figured out how low they could go on the oil content in the fuel and still have the car engine work.

But with a airplane engine, most people tend to fly WOT or full throttle all the time. So then there isn't enough oil in the car fuel to support the engine properly.





earlwb is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2012, 05:57 AM
  #19
1QwkSport2.5r
Thread Starter
 
1QwkSport2.5r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cottage Grove, MN
Posts: 8,772
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: earlwb

Many of the RC car specific glow fuels have a lot less oil in them. Sometimes as little as 8% oil in the fuel. So they get the extra power by having more methanol and nitromethane in the fuel as compared to model airplane glow fuel with 16% to 25% oil in it.

I think the RC car fuels evolved like that over time as the RC car people kept wanting more power and speed out of the engines. Plus RC car engines usually have a very short life anyway.

Anyway, it is why I always tell people to not use car fuel in a model airplane engine. When you think about it, a RC car engine doesn't go full throttle for every long, they usually run in the midrange throttle range a lot with short WOT bursts for the straightaway. So the engine tends to load up with extra oil at low throttle settings and blows it all out on the WOT burst, then repeats the cycle around the track. Someone a long time ago figured out how low they could go on the oil content in the fuel and still have the car engine work.

But with a airplane engine, most people tend to fly WOT or full throttle all the time. So then there isn't enough oil in the car fuel to support the engine properly.





I know for a lot of guys, car engines dont last long. The fast rpm they turn (some over 40,000rpm) tends to bellmouth the liner faster, among other things. Most of them are never broke in properly. Mine have been run on 20% nitro 12% oil for a number of years, though I recently dropped to 10% oil to see if there was much of a difference. Slightly more power, and still plenty of oil out the exhaust. Most premixed car fuel is 8-16% oil, with most of them being an 80/20 synthetic/castor blend. If you think about how long a car engine lasts running 35,000+rpm, gallonwise, compared to an aircraft engine running half that rpm.. I would think the amount of run time would be close to the same provided the break-in was indentically, and run on their respective fuels.

There was something written in a magazine earlier this year that in car engines, more than 8% oil is a waste as it does not promote longer engine life like one would expect. I am on the fence about that, as I've never worn out an engine to date. I have a 65mph 2wd 1/10th scale stadium truck with a 3-port .20ci engine that runs very well on 15%nitro/18%oil byrons airplane fuel (still breaking in), but it really runs fast on 20/10 fuel. More oil slows them down some, it seems.. but they run fine on more oil. Most guys want the instant cleanout and transition, of course at the expense of lubrication. I'm not a believer of synthetic oils being better in the car engines, only because they run hotter and in some cases, heavily loaded down.

So on the subject of oils.. Do Ester oils burn at that much of a a higher temp than Pag oils or are they about the same? Aren't Ester oils derived from natural non-synthetic base stock?
1QwkSport2.5r is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 03:49 PM
  #20
flyingagin
 
flyingagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Modesto, Ca
Posts: 2,251
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

1QwkSport2.5r
Check out this site Tommy's Karts 'N Parts Inc.
Here is the websitehttp://www.tommyskarts.com/Cat.Oils.htm
CP 2075 CASTOR - QUART 3.99
CP 0080 CASTOR GAL 11.00
Ido beleive that is a heck of a good price for castor oil.
They also list some synthitics, but I have no idea which 1 might be ok in our engines.
flyingagin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 04:24 PM
  #21
1QwkSport2.5r
Thread Starter
 
1QwkSport2.5r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cottage Grove, MN
Posts: 8,772
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: flyingagin

1QwkSport2.5r
Check out this site Tommy's Karts 'N Parts Inc.
Here is the website http://www.tommyskarts.com/Cat.Oils.htm
CP 2075 CASTOR - QUART 3.99
CP 0080 CASTOR GAL 11.00
I do beleive that is a heck of a good price for castor oil.
They also list some synthitics, but I have no idea which 1 might be ok in our engines.
I will check that out, Thanks for posting it.
1QwkSport2.5r is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 04:52 PM
  #22
flyingagin
 
flyingagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Modesto, Ca
Posts: 2,251
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

You are most welcome 1QwkSport2.5r

I have been looking for a descent synthitic that does not break the bank. No joy. At this point I think I will just go with methanol and castor in my bigger engines.

Use on board glow assist on my K2B sportster.65. And on my bigger Super Tigers (.90 and 3000). That will also keep my hands futher away from that meat grinder up front. (I got the scars on both hands from prop bites).

On the 3000 I might try an electronic ignition to get a really low idle. The wight don't matter the slightest bit to that bird

I can get Methanol for $4.25 a gallon here and then add the above castor. Heck that is some cheap fuel.
flyingagin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 05:47 PM
  #23
1QwkSport2.5r
Thread Starter
 
1QwkSport2.5r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Cottage Grove, MN
Posts: 8,772
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: flyingagin

You are most welcome 1QwkSport2.5r

I have been looking for a descent synthitic that does not break the bank. No joy. At this point I think I will just go with methanol and castor in my bigger engines.

Use on board glow assist on my K2B sportster.65. And on my bigger Super Tigers (.90 and 3000). That will also keep my hands futher away from that meat grinder up front. (I got the scars on both hands from prop bites).

On the 3000 I might try an electronic ignition to get a really low idle. The wight don't matter the slightest bit to that bird

I can get Methanol for $4.25 a gallon here and then add the above castor. Heck that is some cheap fuel.
I'm curious as to whether its 100% castor. When you add it to the cart, it said "cool power oil - castor" or something to that effect. I'll try calling them tomorrow if I have time and find out. Thats a good price on castor.

Lately, thats all I have been using in my fuel, though a 50/50 blend of castor/synthetic made my cars run a good bit faster than my standard all castor brew,
1QwkSport2.5r is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-05-2012, 10:51 PM
  #24
larrysogla
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: los angeles, CA
Posts: 329
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?

Gentlemen.........When you use green Cool Power and also Thor lubricants(both of them are methanol compatible)........do you use the light green Cool Power or the medium green Cool Power or the heavy green Cool Power???........and also for those who use Thor oil do you use the light Thor oil or do you use the heavy Thor oil?????? Both green Cool Power oil and Thor oil are available at Roberts Kart Shop as posted by jimmyjames213 in post no.13. Thank you in advance for your kind reply.
larrysogla is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2012, 05:37 AM
  #25
flyingagin
 
flyingagin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Modesto, Ca
Posts: 2,251
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Synthetic oils soluble in methanol besides klotz?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: larrysogla

Gentlemen.........When you use green Cool Power and also Thor lubricants(both of them are methanol compatible)........do you use the light green Cool Power or the medium green Cool Power or the heavy green Cool Power???........and also for those who use Thor oil do you use the light Thor oil or do you use the heavy Thor oil?????? Both green Cool Power oil and Thor oil are available at Roberts Kart Shop as posted by jimmyjames213 in post no.13. Thank you in advance for your kind reply.

jimmyjames213 link in post 13 goes straight to the light oil (Thor Oil Light).Code: Thor-L.
Maybe jimmyjames213will chime in again, but I think if you clicked on add to basket that is what he is useing.
That is not bad for a gallon of synthitic. $23
Some one else jump in and check my numbers. Not sure I trust them.
For 18% total oil in a gallon of fuel you would need 23 ounces of oil. That is only $4.13 for the synthiticThor-L. The rest methanol or methanol/nitro.
For the castor fromTommy's Karts(gal) you would only add $1.97 to your methanol
If you used a 50/50 mix of sythitic ( Thor-L.)and castor oil fromTommy's Karts 'N Parts Inc I think the oil cost is $3.05
None of that counts shipping


flyingagin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 12:23 PM.