mustangous

I am trying to get the scoop on this fuel mixing process....

I was reading earlier somewhere in all these post that soemone was using the Klotz heli oil(for cars or trucks) instead of the Klotz KL-200 because its thinner and less messier out of the exhaust. Has anyone esle done this or can confirm that this is a good idea or should i stick with the KL-200.

Also tell me if i have this correct: I was gonna try to get VP's M1(methanol)(use62%) with VP's Nitro 100(use 20%) with some klotz heli KL-198(use 14%) and a little Klotz Castor BC-175(4%)

If the heli oil is not a good the i was gonna use 64% M1, 20% nitro, 12% KL-200, and 4% castor oil.

I will be using this fuel for a few lst's. These % numbers is just a base, obvioulsy i'll adjust here and there if needed. Thats why i like the "making my own fuel" method. I dont know what i am getting with these off the shelf fuel. Not many say what their percentage are....

Thanks for anyones help....

hpi apollo

i would suggest using VP's M3 methanol because it has less additives in it that your engine doesnt need, i plan on using 12% all Klotz benol castor oil in about a week when i start mixing mine

DrRider-X

try Powermasters they are outstanding as far as fuels go so far. www.powermasterfeuls.com they have it for every need so far.

RaceCity

KL-200 is a fine oil. It's been around forever. It's is unwise in my opinion to choose an oil on the basis of the "exhaust mess". Oil serves a very distinct purpose in your engine, and "EZ cleanup" is not a good reason to choose one oil over the other. Worry about the expensive engine it protects, and less about paper towels....the latter being vastly cheaper.

KL-601 "HeliGlow" is a fairly new product. It is a much lower viscosity product compared to KL-200. (5W -vs- 50W). There may be advantages, but a much thinner oil doesn't sit well with me. Particularly in a harsh environment. I mean, if your family car manufacturer specifies 15W-50 for your engine...would you feel safe dumping super thin fork oil in the crankcase instead???

I don't know.

Use either one (KL-200 or KL-601), but I'd keep at least SOME castor (BeNol, etc) in the blend for a margin of protection when all the synthetics have long since gone up in smoke.

An option is to use KL-100. It is a pre-mixed 80/20 blend of Techniplate (KL-200), and BeNol. It would save you the hassle of purchasing the Synth and Castor oils separately.

Homebrewing is fun!

mustangous

Cool thanks for the information

I am having problems getting the nitro... I might have to drive a little ways to get(1.5 hrs), but i have to purchase 5 gallons($150)of it at a time... Now what can i do to keep it as fresh as possible? Could i separate them in quarts or other smaller containers and storm them in a cool dry place? Or once i open the 5 gallon can there is nothing other to do other than use it fast...???
Thanks

RaceCity

5 gallons of nitro at a time? Wow...

Being in NJ, you might contact Stan at S&W fuels near Easton, PA. No guarantees, but he might be able to help you with smaller qty's of Nitro. Alternatively, Klotz sells their Nitro in one-gallon cans. It's about $45/gal list...a Klotz dealer in your area might be able to do better price wise.

In the absense of a kart-racing shop (where I buy most of my stuff), I'd guess that a dirt bike dealer might carry Klotz products, or could order them for you. You'll have to do the homework on this.

As for storing the fuel making chemicals....I'm not big on keeping any more of the stuff on hand than I can use in a relatively short period of time. Keeping the ingredients fresh is one thing, but a stockpiling flammables in your house is entirely another. I'm not recommending it.

Good luck with the homebrewing.

hpi apollo

has anyone here experimented with sidewinders CP-07 additive that claims to reduce friction by 80%? if so, where can you buy it without being blended with something else, thanks

RaceCity

Everybody has some miracle additive that will magically reduce friction by some unverifiable amount.

Think about how many "motor elixirs" have been marketed over the years...each promising an end to "power robbing" friction, etc...

Does anybody actually believe this anymore?

Yes...Morgans sells this product, but you'd have to contact them for details.

Given that the highest performance model engines on the planet use nothing but methanol and castor....I wouldn't worry about it. Use good ingredients, tune carefully and the performance will take care of itself.

Dr Nitro

They're secret additive is....OIL!! Yes, oil has been known to reduce friction by over 80% when using it over not using OIL at all in your fuel...LOL

There are a lot of good friction modifiers and extreme pressure lubricants out there that are worth their weight in gold, the reason exotics are not in wide use in the rc fuels is the expense. The good ones are way too expencive to be an economical additive in the percentages necessary. There are a bunch of low cost ones out there that have little if any benefit when used in a methanol based fuel environment, still not worth the cost.

If Morgans actually had something that was working its one of these things: Something fairly expensive to prop up a very substandard base synthetic, or something cheap to prop up a mediocre base synthetic, or just nothing at all and just telling people there is something there and still using a mediocre oil. The RC industry is 85% marketing hype and 15% facts. Few product makers have my respect with the product they sell, when it comes to fuel I trust Cooper's and when Brian is questioned, he gives you a no-BS response. You can also trust S&W, if you can get it, its good fuel and oil too.

Team_Monkey

Hello Home brewers!
First post here. It has taken me MANY visits but I've finally finished reading every post on the thread. I think every body should do that before openning their pie-hole. It would reduce a lot of the duplication.

Any-hoo, like many others I have been lookign for sources of ingredients and thought I'd post mine to help others.

Norwalk Raceway in Norwalk, Ohio( http://www.norwalkraceway.com ) has rolled back Methanol prices to $2 per gallon this year. They have a regular gas pump of it so bring a container.

I ordered a gallon of Baker's AA castor oil from SIG ( http://www.sigmfg.com ) for $27.98 delivered. best rice I found after weeks of looking. If I read it right, international shipping is only a dollar more and there's no HAZ-MAT fee on bean oil!

I bought KLOTZ KL-200 at the local bike shop for $10.99 a quart but it would have been cheaper to order a gallon of it from SIG with the castor and combine shipping.

The Nitromethane has been VERY hard to find but I finally found two local sources in North Eastern Ohio. R & R Auto body(216) 267-5454 in Cleveland and Coppersmith Powersport (330)724-2900 in Akron,Ohio. R&R is not ordering any more fuel this year but Coppersmith i ssupposed to have some. I'm trying to get them on the phone and I'll post here if they have any more.

All this breaks down to the following cost in USD after tax and shipping:
Castor $.22/oz
KLOTZ $.37/oz
Nitro $1.03/oz (this was a cost for shipping a quart of it, I'm hoping to lower it.)
Meth $ .02/oz

So a gallon is roughly $14.86 to make 5% nitro, 18% oil (50/50 castor/syn). No real savings, but most of us aren't here to save a few pennies on fuel. For true money savings, the way I figure it is to buy a gallon of 15% nitro with any oil blend. Then just do the math to blend that down to three gallons of 5% nitro and the oil content you want. Doing that brings it just under $11 per gallon. OR get a higher nitro content fuel and blend it down further, you see how it works.

All this came about as the Magnum engines I ordered recommend castor oil as the lube and I like to build things myself. I'll run a 50/50 blend of castor & syn. But I will be playing with that and the overall oil percentage. The castor is cheaper than the syn so I may be playing with a higher percentage of castor but a lower overall percentage of oil.

I had a Saito .65 that hated nitro so I'm hoping my new Magnum .91 will be the same. 0% nitro, 15% oil (70/30 castor/syn) would run me $10.89/gal.

I read an excellent article ( http://www.amaclub217.com/newsletter...f%20June03.pdf ) about model fuel oil content. I recommend it.

This is long enough. Thanks so much to the long time posters, there are too many of you to list. But to the fellow with the Emu head on his posts....that cracks me up.

Oh, if anyone lives in the Medina, Cleveland, Akron area and wants to split up costs, I'd be willing to look at that too.

downunder

Who? What? CRIKEY!!!!

Team_Monkey

Fast update!
Coppersmith Powersport in Akron has one 5 gallon can of Nitro left at $159.00.

Get it if you can, I think I'll just buy some commercial fuel and mix it down to my spec's. I'll not fly enough this year to warrant 5 gallons of nitro. It will also give me a chance to experiment with some small batches of break-in fuel and 0% nitro sport fuel.

But next spring....

if you haven't checked it out, the Engine Conversion forum has a LOOOOOONG thread on gas to glow conversion with no ignition. They mix commercial model fuel with high octane pump gasoline to make fuel. Some guys are using it in their smaller engines too. Might have to tailor the amount of methanol to keep the glow plug hot though.

hpi apollo

may i ask where you ordered the sig oils from? i am looking into getting some synthetic oils for my fuels, and castor that cost a little less, so i figured sig would ahve it, without the hazmat shipping fee

lukesp

Agreed

Team_Monkey

In the body of my long post is the web address for the main SIG site. Follow the links on the left to 'Fuels' or 'lubricants' whatever it was... and you'll find it.

Great people. I called over the phone and they took the order and set me up.

OH, you do have to register on their site to order from them, but they had no problem shipping to a residence.

Good luck!

downunder

It's more like they're the highest performing of all engines on the planet....bar none!

Sport_Pilot

Only because race rules in FAI limit nitro to 0 or 10% and 15% in US pylon and speed control line. You won't find racing engines made for high nitro anymore. More nitro will give more power when the engine compression and timing are adjusted for it. No doubt about it. The older 70% or so nitro racing engines of past were more powerfull than their FAI alcohol equivlent, but the rules changed sometime after the more powerfull schnurle ported engines were introduced.

hpi apollo

for anyone who uses 100% castor oil in their car fuels, have you found it slightly difficult to tune the lsn...my os seems to be loading up a bit with the right tuning

also, i have a new pint of benol and a quart of super techniplate, should 8% castor and 4% syntheric run pretty good or should i do more synthetic? thanks

MassiveMods

I agree Brian Cooper is extremely well informed and a gentleman to boot ! ( not that i wanna boot him ) lol

Sport_Pilot

You only need a very small amount of castor to help protect the engine. For sport your mix would work well, but for racing I would only use about 2% castor and the rest synthetic. This may or may not run better than 100% synthetic. But it will add protection for lean runs.

esamart

Do you know if IRL and ChampCar teams use methanol soluble oils you could use in model fuel?

I wonder because we European modelers enjoy AeroSave and AeroSynth oils which are byproducts when there were serious plans to start using ethanol in cars and therefore new lubricants were developed.

savis007

right team all these % and numbers are giving me a headache, can anyone simplfy the equations, I am running a Savage 25 and the book says runit on 25% fuel but I can not get it supplied to where I live in New Zealand the closest I can get is 20% which is all good for bashing which is what I do best but at 19$NZ per litre I have decided to start to make my own, please anyone living in the real world of metrics can you tell me how to make 1L of 25% fuel and also 1L of 20% fuel if I decide to make more than one litre I guess I will just multiple the figures by the amount I want to make.

DesertHucker

Ok you got it easy working in metric.
You whant to make 1 lt lets call it 1000ml to make it easy.
25% nitro mix=
25% nitro 250ml
20% oil 200ml
55% methanol 550ml
add them all up = 1000ml = 1lt

Team_Monkey

Thought I'd post some success.

I flew this weekend on my first batch of Home Brew. The planes that is, not me!
I have a few new engines to break in so I wanted a high oil mix with generous castor and low nitro. Some of the numbers were rounded so my % are off but I don't care, it was easy to mix with a kitchen measiring cup donated by my wife.

Here's the mix:

1 gallon 25% Cool Power w/ 17% lube ( there's some castor in it but I assumed all Synthetic to make the math easy)
1 quart Klotz 100 (that's the 80/20 synthetic to castor right? I meant to buy the all synthetic but goofed so I had to account for that in the math)
40 oz SIG castor
320 oz Methanol

I might be off on the ounces so don't flame me. I'm typing this at work. Those actually add up to 520oz = 4 gal 8oz. hmmm memory must be off....

Anyways, they flew great in a new Magnum .46 XLS and a new O.S. .46AX ABL. I can't say they left any more goop at the break in point or on the plane than the one tank of commercial fuel I ran in them. Both seem to need a bit more electric starter time when cold vs. the 15% Cool Power I had, but that could just be because they're new.

All in all, a great day of mixing and flying. I have three new engines at home and one more on the way (got in to some lucky money ) and I happen to have four gallons of fuel ready to go...what a coincedence. The cost savings really wasn't that much but I know the engines will have the lube I want and I got to play mad scientist in the garage [>:] The local hobby shop is selling fuel fairly cheap and it takes me a small trip to get Methanol...I may use commercial fuel once the engines are broken in but don't hate me for it.

I did reserve one gallon of Methanol and enough castor to mix up some 'virgin fuel' for my Magnum .91XLS 4 stroke. My old 4 strokes hated nitro so I'm hoping this one is the same. If it works I might just make my own 4 stroke fuel and buy the 2 stroke fuel to save hassle.

Question for the experts: If I'm running all castor and there is no Nitro (lower head temp?) can or should I reduce the oil content to below 16%? maybe 12-14%?
I should mention that I tune with a tach and set about 300-400 RPM rich of peak on the ground.

Thanks very much to the many who have gone before me. "...standing on the shoulders of giants..." and all that.

downunder

Nitro or no nitro, it doesn't appear to make much difference at all to head temps so don't be tempted to lower the oil content. Actually I'd tend to go the other way and add some extra oil with low or zero nitro because the engine only sips at low nitro fuels (comparatively ) so the actual flow of oil through the engine is less.