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  1. #1

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    Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    I just picked up some Klotz oil (techniplate and Benol) today and was amazed to see the recommendations on the back of the bottles.

    Would *you* use 10% Klotz oil in *your* 4-stroke glow engine?

    The figures suggested (which I forget at the moment but which struck me as being *very* low) are much less than I'd dare to use (I stick to 20% by volume -- usually 15% synth and 5% castor).

    I wonder if Klotz would offer to pay should you wreck your engine by using their recommended very low oil ratios in model engines?

    Or are we all being overly conservative with our oil ratios (yes, we've all heard that Motul can be used in very low percentages (12% or so) without problems - but I'm not sure that Klotz and Coolpower are good enough for such low ratios.

    And what's the "good oil" on synth oil?

    I've been using Klotz and Coolpower (whichever happens to be available) and had no problems with either (the castor component is my insurance) -- but is one of these two really any better than the other?

  2. #2

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    A few years ago there was an oil available in Oz called "synlube" (blue oil). This was used very successfully at 5% by volume. The problem was that just one lean run cost you a new engine.

    10% Klotz is just fine for most 4-strokers. My Saito's run very well using it. Some manufacturers warn against using castor as it creates too much carbon buildup. Remember that the oil in glow fuel does 2 things, lubricate and cool. Very little oil is needed for lube, the rest is "wasted" for cooling. Depending on the installation, cooling can be achieved by either good airflow (baffles etc.) or oil.

    The choice of oils and content is your choice, like choice of car or beer. There is no cast-in-concrete standard.

    Safe Flying!

  3. #3

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    ORIGINAL: blikseme300Some manufacturers warn against using castor as it creates too much carbon buildup.
    Castor won't create carbon unless it burns -- and it doesn't burn (unless it's *really* hot) it polymerizes to produce an additional level of protection against metal to metal contact when engine temperatures exceed a safe maximum.

    Remember that the oil in glow fuel does 2 things, lubricate and cool. Very little oil is needed for lube, the rest is "wasted" for cooling.
    In which case the former assertion must be false -- because if the oil burns it's adding to the heat of the engine, not cooling it.

    You're right though in asserting that cooling is a key function of the oil we use.

    I strongly suspect that, providing the mixture is always set rich enough, 10% oil would be fine for most of our model engines -- but the reality is that we don't always re-tune our engine before every flight to ensure it's running rich enough for good cooling, and our fuel systems are so simple (exhaust pressure) that the mixture changes sufficiently from a tank-full to tank-empty situation to produce an excessively lean run with very low oil contents.

    It's still amazing to think that although most 2cycle glow motors run 4:1 oil ratios, many 2-stroke (motorcycle) petrol motors get away with 100:1.

  4. #4

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    Xjet,

    Look at the Klotz homepage below and read the instructions in the technical sheets for the "original techniplate". They recommend 15-18% oil content for RC-modellengines. /Amir

    http://www.klotzlube.com/storeCats.asp?ci=8

  5. #5

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    Check out the recommendation for 4-stroke engines on this datasheet from the Klotz website. They recommend 5%-10% for 4-stroke glow model engines.

    I don't know *anyone* who'd dare to run as little as 5% oil in an OS, Saito, YS or other *expensive* 4-stroke engine.

  6. #6

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    Methanol cools far better than oil does. Oil doesn't go through a phase transition like methanol does in a model airplane engine.

  7. #7
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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    Precisely Isky, and if you work out the volume of oil that passes through a .60 sized engine every cycle it's a blob about 1mm in diameter. That can't carry too much heat away and stay a liquid.

  8. #8

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    10% oil is plenty for a standard fourstroke. The YS induction system requires more oil to keep the crankpin properly lubed. If an engine had a lot of runtime I would use 7%.

  9. #9

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    I use 10 to 20 % Depends on where I am. I also found a site Klotz recommend for good prices and support if you email them they win give you the Best prices in U.S. and International that I have found www.klotzwarehouse.com Klotzlube and Original TechniPlate tech info R/C Model: 2-stroke glow engines mix at 15 -18% http://www.klotzlube.com/storeProdDetails.asp?pi=22 This product works well for me.

  10. #10

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    Since I started this thread (some two and a half years ago - thanks for reviving it HelpFred) I've switched to Coopers Plus C oil which I have been running at 12% by volume for nearly a year and a half with absolutely excellent results.

    So I guess you *can* run low percentages without problems but I'm damned if I'd use Klotz at these low percentages -)

  11. #11

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    thanks for the reply

    have you had any problems when running the Klotz?

    what percent did you Run it at?

    what is the difference that you noticed between Klotz and Coopers Plus C oil?

    I have been running Klotz and I can say that I May have to use a greater % at times and therefore use more product, then Just always mixing 12%




  12. #12

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?


    ORIGINAL: helpFred

    thanks for the reply

    have you had any problems when running the Klotz?
    No problems as such but to be "safe" I wouldn't run any less than 18% by volume.

    what is the difference that you noticed between Klotz and Coopers Plus C oil?
    The Coopers allowed me to run at a lower-percentage and that means my engines run cooler, idle better, transition better and I get more minutes per tank-full. I've also noticed a performance increase on most of my engines when compared to the Morgan's castor/synth oil they use in Omega. There's also the bonus that I don't have nearly as much "gunk" on my plane at the end of the day.

    Coopers similar to the European oils such as Motul and Aerosynth/Aerosave insomuch as it uses a higher quality base stock which allows for safe use of ratios as low as 10% or so although I stick to 12%.

    The guy who makes/sells the stuff uses the name "FuelMan" here on RCU and wrote the fuel FAQ and really knows his stuff.

    His website has some useful info

    I find this quote (from the website) perhaps the most interesting and revealing:
    ORIGINAL: CooperFuels_website
    Our racing fuels are well known for the longevity they offer a racing engine. In the past boat racing engines were rebuilt between racing weekends, with our formulations, they are lasting seasons. This is something you generally do not get with the traditional boat fuels out there. With the lower internal friction due to our lubricants you are able to unlock the potential to achieve the maximum performance that is only limited by the mechanical ability of the engine. It is common to hear from our racers that are gaining a 1000 rpm's or more with just a fuel change

  13. #13

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    You can also run heli glow Pure synthetic base materials are blended for the perfect level of lubrication and performance for modern R/C helicopter glow engines. Klotzยฎ HeliGlowยฎ is a special, new generation, light weight-viscosity synthetic lubricant which provides enhanced flow ability and improved lubrication with increased swept volume fuel charge for stronger performance.



    I wrote www.Klotzwarehouse.com and they said That base stock is number 5 and is best you can get for base and that any of these products will work and run 10% to 20% run heli glow or benol or super tech.

    I get very helpful information on their site and if not-on site I email them.

  14. #14
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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    ORIGINAL: XJet

    I just picked up some Klotz oil (techniplate and Benol) today and was amazed to see the recommendations on the back of the bottles.

    Would *you* use 10% Klotz oil in *your* 4-stroke glow engine?
    I realize this is an old post but after my experiences this summer I had to comment.

    Yes, I would use 10% oil in four stroke engines. Four stroke lubrication is different than two stroke. The lubricant collects in the crankcase until it reaches a volume where excess is expelled through the breather or now, in newer engines, pulled back into the intake. A couple years ago I ran an FS-48 I converted to diesel of fuel containing 20% castor and balance kerosene. This engine burned 10 oz per hour at 10+kRPM. That means only 2 oz per hour of oil. This is FAR less than the typical glow fuel/oil consumption, I estimate to be roughly 30oz of fuel and 6 oz of oil per hour. There was no lack of oil in the engine.

    More recently I've run my FS-52 on spark with 8% Klotz Original Techniplate oil and balance methanol. This engine also has the oil recirculation modifications. Read about it here. This engine doesn't have a lot of time on it yet after modification but visual inspection proved there was plenty of oil in the engine.

    Do your research and check your engine before and after cutting the oil in the fuel.
    Greg

  15. #15

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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    There's a big difference between using low-oil content with gasoline or kerosene and using low-oil content with methanol.

    Both gasoline and kerosene have inherently greater lubricity to start with so need less oil to add protection than methanol.

    It's also worth noting that I now use fuel with just 12% oil in my glow-motors but it sure aint' Klotz!

  16. #16
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    RE: Klotz, who are they trying to kid?

    Time will tell what happens with 8% Klotz and methanol in the FS-52. I really do need to order some of Coopers synthetic.
    Greg


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