RappyPilot

I have been flying planes/heli's for almost 2 years, and making my own fuel since I started this hobby.

But I am getting tired of the mess and the fuss etc. And it's not that much cheaper and always a nightmare shopping around for nitro that is getting ever increasingly expencive. I make standard 5% plane fuel fuel using Methanol, Nitro and Klotz KL200 and have been very happy with that for my planes and 15% for my heli's.

But I am thinking of just buying fuel from my LHS.

They only sell Morgan fuels. Sifted through the Morgan Fuels website and it seems like a reputable brand but unsure if it is a good fuel.

Keen on trying Morgan Cool power but I see it has all sorts of additives, anti foming agents, built in after run oil and CP-07 anti this and anti that all sorts of stuff.

Also read that it leaves an odd green residue in your engine, does not sound good.

Any opinions on whether it is good a fuel without starting a "what fuel is better" flamer war?

downunder

If you can only get Morgan fuels then get their Omega which at least has some castor in it. Then you can probably have a pink reside in your engine .

RappyPilot

Ha ha ha A Red Big Stick 60 with a shiny red fuel filter and a pink engine ... How cool is that [8D]

.

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

....if you want your engine to run hot as a pistol, and you want your engines bearings to rust
and go out early....use the green Cool Power. Around here we call it Cruel Power. [:@]

If you want your engine to run cool, and the bearings to last forever....use plenty of castor.

FBD.

RappyPilot

Wow Flyboy.

That is a bold statement. But what makes it rust? I know nitro methane will rust an engine if it is not trated wit after run oil and left for an extended period of time.

But is this rust you are talking about more extreme? And over what period of time, or rather, after how many litres/galons of use would your bearings start rusting?

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

...."cruel power"....

.... http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/sear...mitbutton=+OK+

downunder

It's not really all that bold at all but a fact . Some engines get rusty bearings quite quickly while others never seem to. Strangely, the ones that never seem to are control line engines. I've flown CL for 50 years and have never had a rusty bearing even with engines that haven't been used for many many years. So why is that? Two reasons really in that CL fliers almost invariably use castor, either entirely or at least a good proportion, and secondly that at the end of each flight the engine stops at high speed because it's completely used up all fuel in the tank and the engine itself.

Now consider RC where most fliers use all synthetics and, worse still, taxi back to the pits on the last flight with the engine idling and simply shut it down, pack up and go home. That leaves raw fuel in the crankcase and the methanol sucks water out of the air until all the methanol has evaporated away leaving the water behind for a long time. The synthetic oil in the meantime slides off the metal surfaces because it doesn't like to stick to them leaving bare metal exposed to water and air. And there's your rust. Castor OTOH loves to stick to metal so it provides a protective barrier against water and air which is what a good after run oil does too.

The moral of the story is that if you want to avoid rust then on the last flight for the day always run the engine dry of fuel (full throttle is best) by pulling off the fuel line. You can also stop it by pinching the fuel line but keep it pinched for a few seconds after the engine stops to let any tank pressure bleed off or it'll try to push some fuel back to the carb. Then use a good after run oil if there's no castor in the fuel.

Jester241

ALOT of guys use the green cool power and love it,but I have to agree with these other guys on the rust issue and stuff. The rust issue isnt that big a deal honestly,and if it was so much worse then any other fuel,nobody would use it. Chances are you'd never notice anything over any other fuel. But like I said,I too would recommend the pink omega. I just started making my own fuels and will be testing my castor blend (5% castor/13% oil) tomarrow in 40 degree weather. I've noticed a slight difference when using castor fuels that you'll have a bit more gunk to clean off your plane at the end of the day as opposed to the full synthetic fuels,but its probably worth it. I think most fuel companies like cool power really push their synthetic fuels becuase I believe its cheaper to make then the castor blends,thus they make more money. Plus their probly using cheap oil to make even more profit. And as far as all those "additives",that probly just a bunch of advertising mumbo jumbo. I honestly think a good home brew fuel with good oil product like Klotz is probably a better fuel then the store bought stuff because your not making it a cheap as possible to make money. I've flown the store bought stuff,mostly byrons and S&W for a couple years now,with mediocre results....now I cant wait to put in a hard summer with my home brews. I'll bet a plane I'm gonna see as good if not better results for 1/2 the price,but we'll have to see.

I wouldnt be surprised if you go back to making your own fuel again soon after you start paying $25 a gallon like alot of guys are now. It just aggrivates me going to the hobby shops and seeing those prices. I often wonder what the hobby shops are paying for this stuff.

YUKONFLYR

When I started in this hobby there was one other student like me that had an Avistar with a TT GP42, I had a Thunder Tiger world trainer with the same engine. The gent with the avistar used the green stuff, cool power. I lucked out and the hobby shop gave me the Omega which was pink. My first weekend of flying, some old timer came up and juiced my jug with castor and told me there was not enough oil in the fuel for a bushing type engine... A few weekends later the gent with the Avistar was telling me how he loved not having to clean his plane ect, and then when he was flying you could hear his plane squeeling. My instructor told me no biggie, just the crankshaft rubbing against the bushing due to all syn oil and not enough of it. My engine never squeeled and in fact ran better with purple ducted fan engine fuel, 10% nitro and 24% oil content with castor. I bought all the hobby store had which was two gallons and after that I started mixing my own fuel. 50% Klotz, 50% castor and 20% nitro with 20% oil content.

The guy with the Avistar did get his fuel juiced with castor and his engine did stop squeeling...............at the cost of him having to clean his plane a little, which he did not like.

At my club in California, the green stuff has many names none of them were good or could be described as cool

freeair

Downunder is dead right with his post. i use Coolpower oil but also mix in atleast 5% of good Castor , when i finish r/c flying for the day i firstly drain the remains from the fuel tank then i re start the engine and let it run until it stops then i add a good 20 drops of after run oil and turn the engine over slowly by hand so all internals get some extra oil coating. there is nothing wrong with Coolpower oils , its the owner of the engine who is at fault. i used to own and race r/c power boats that had very expensive engines fitted that ran on Coolpower oil at 18% plus nitro at 60%, same thing after a race meet, run it dry and feed the engine plenty of sitting oil which was automotive transmission fluid which by the way is still a prefered after run oil at a much cheaper cost. i now also do Pylon racing which requires a fuel of non synthetic oil only Castor and even after this type of racing i still fill the engine with after run tranny fluid just to break down the castor effect on bearings when the engine is sitting idle for a while.

RappyPilot

Well seems to be a lot of mixed feelings and opinions.

Thanks for all the input guys.

Wel, I have 2 litres of the stuff, I am off to the field, I am just going to try it and see how it compares to my own brew purely out of curiousity. See if there is any difference in tach readings or temperature.

But by the sounds of it... Seems like I will be sticking to my own fuel anyway... At least I know exactly what goes into the fuel and how much of it.

Jezmo

Yep, this debate has been raging for as long as I have been visiting RCU. It probably ain't gonna end any time soon either. I ran Cool Power for almost 15 yrs without any bearing trouble at all. At some point I saw an experiment where a drop of castor and one of synth oil was placed on a cookie sheet. When a small butane lighter was held below the cookie sheet right between the two drops the synthetic appeared to try to move away from the heat and the castor clearly moved toward the heat. When there is metal to metal contact in our little engines excess heat is created which will draw the Castor in to help with the extra stress in that area. The theory is the synthetics will not perform as well once an overheated condition is reached. Since that time I have either bought fuel with some castor content or added my own. (Usually Sig Brand Castor) Some folks complain about the brown residue left over from the heated castor but that is VERY easy to remove in an old crock pot filled with ethylene glycol antifreeze and set to low heat. Drop the engine in and let her simmer for 8 to 10 hrs and the brown gunk is gone.

I would strongly advise not using a Crock Pot for food after using AntiFreeze in it. Ethylene Glycol is poisonous.

XJet

I've already explained elsewhere why that is a *bad* thing and shows deficiencies in castor's abilities as a lubricant in our engines.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Please explain it again. I haven't read your other posts on this subject.

Thanks

Alpha703

Hey XJet, maybe you could explain to us here why that is a *bad* thing. It would be appreciated by all, thanks

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The oil also helps to cool our engines. If synthetic oil avoids heat, it is never going to do any cooling

I don't want it

XJet

The reason that castor oil appears to flow *towards* the heat is twofold.

Firstly, it has a very poor viscosity index (VI). The VI is an indicator of how rapidly an oil thins out as it is warmed. A higher VI means that an oil retains its viscosity more effectively as it's heated, a lower VI means it thins quickly as heat is applied.

If you take a puddle of castor on a plate of metal, that puddle sits proud of the surface it has a convex meniscus.

When you apply heat near that puddle of castor, the oil closest to the heat warms up and (because of the low VI) becomes very runny very quickly. As a result it starts to flow towards the heat driven by the cooler oil behind it that sits at a higher level above the surface of the metal.

Secondly, because castor has poor thermal conductivity, the heat from the hotter (thinner) oil is not transferred very quickly to the remainder of the pool so we don't see the pool flow everywhere on the hot side which gives the appearance that it's flowing towards the heat.

When you examine what attributes are desirable in a good oil, two of the key ones are the VI and the oil's ability to conduct heat.

An oil with a good VI will continue to provide excellent viscosity (and thus continue to form a tough lubricating film between moving parts) even as the temperature rises. In this regard, castor's poor VI is *not* a good thing.

Secondly an oil with good thermal conductivity will aid in helping the engine to dissipate heat from key parts such as the piston by conduction to the liner and (subsequently) to the cooling fins. Once again, castor's poor thermal conductivity is *not* a good thing.

When you heat a pool of good quality synthetic oil on a sheet of metal you notice two things.

1. the oil appears to flow evenly not just towards the heat source. This is because the VI is high and thus the oil on the hot side doesn't thin dramatically compared to the oil on the cold side.

2. the oil also flows evenly because it conducts heat quickly so that the entire pool of fluid rapidly achieves the same temperature.

This tells us that a *good* synthetic will lose less viscosity as it is heated and it will also aid the conduction across the all-important piston/liner interface and thus allow the engine to run cooler.

Now it's true that castor will polymerize when it gets *really* hot but you have to be absolutely torturing an engine to reach those temperatures.

So, if you know even a small amount about tuning engines and can avoid an ultra-lean run (or recognize it and land in a reasonable time) then a *good* synthetic will actually provide better protection against wear in your engine. However, if you're a complete moron and feel that you can't tell when your engine is so overheated that it runs the risk of seizing then castor is for you.

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

....the attraction of castor oil to a hot spot in an engine is the God given quality
that makes castor oil the finest, most reliable lubricant on the face of the earth.
The fact that the castor seeks out the hot spots in an engine is what saves the
engine in the case of a lean run, or any type of a overheating situation.

The fact that other oils, synthetic and mineral oils run and hide from the
heat makes them inferior to castor in high performance engines.

There is a reason that racing organazations supply the fuel for the competitions,
and that fuel contains straight castor....pylon racing.

I discovered this oil test myself back in the 70's when I built and raced motorcycle
engines. Back then most racing engines, and all screaming go-cart engines
specified the straight castor oil be used....nothing else.

As seen in the 'Oil run and hide test", castor oil is still the best lubricant on this Planet.

Oil test here, five years ago....

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_17...tm.htm#1747856

FBD.

Jezmo

Remember when I said "this debate has been raging.....". It ain't gonna stop because you or I have opinions about the subject.

XJet

Errr... it's more than opinion. Its simple science and fact.

Castor is a fine lubricant but not necessarily the best, so long as you have adequate cooling and know how to avoid ultra-lean runs.

I think "castor runs towards heat so it must be good" is an *opinion*, I've given the scientific reasons why it does that and why it is not really such a good thing.

Opinion versus fact.

Readers are welcome to back either one and (as you point out) I'm sure there'll never be a consensus.

It's a bit like evolution versus intelligent design science versus belief.

Take your pick it's all good.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

You've actually not provided any scientific facts. You simply stated an opinion and declared it to be fact.

Please provide links. If you refuse to provide links, or simply can't provide links to back up your assertions, then all you've done is provide another opinion.

You appear to have studied this quite a bit. Seams like you're well versed in how castor reacts and why it reacts the way it does. Same with synthetics. I would think it wouldn't be that hard for you to provide a few links to back up your assertions. You must have done quite a lot of reading to develop such strong opinions on this subject. PLEASE provide the links.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Keep in mind that not all Cool Power is 100% synthetic. Some is a combination oil package and says so on a little extra label

Also Cool Power 30 heli is 22% synthetic and no one ever had oil problems with it.

XJet

Well if I had all day with nothing else to do or if someone was paying me to do this (which they're not) then I'd oblige.

In the meantime why not go search for yourself. Google is your friend.

Go look for info on "viscosity index" and "thermal conductivity"

You'll find plenty of info.

Unlike some, I don't get all my knowledge and information from the internet.

Sometimes it's just old fashioned book learning and schooling. Can't link to that.

XJet

We're talking about "CoolPower Blue" which is the name given to Morgan's 100% synthetic oil when marketed (seemingly only outside the USA though) as an oil and not a made-up fuel.

There's also "CoolPower Pink" which is their castor/synth blend.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Thats precisely the answer I expected.

So far, all you got is opinion and not fact. It's not up to me to prove your opinion for you. This is a discussion forum and you've made statements of opinion and labeled them as fact. You either back it up with the links or the names of the books and studies that you've read, or you have no credibility.

End of story.