XJet

So if I said "the world is a sphere" you'd swear black and blue that it's only an opinion and I have no credibility unless I were to provide links to the proof?

Sorry, the science is correct. If you want to disprove it why don't *you* provide evidence to prove otherwise?

If you're saying I'm wrong then what is *your* opinion of the observation that castor appears to run towards heat?

Is it really an uber-intelligent substance that knows it must flow towards heat in order to prevent an engine seizing?

Please enlighten us all.

If you have no facts to present that refute the science I have proffered then I think it is you who have the unsubstantiated opinion

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I'm not presenting facts or opinions. I'm trying to learn something about oil. I've made no statements positive or negative about ANY oil and it's ability to lubricate, because I don't know. I'm not trying to disprove or prove anything. Just wanting information so that I may form my own opinion.

I'm asking you to provide information to back up what you said. You don't seam willing to do that. You're assuming that I disagree with you and taking a defensive position. I never said I didn't believe you. I asked you to provide some links or names of books so that I may go and read for myself. Never said you were wrong. Just asking for the information or sources.

XJet

You're a bright guy, I'm sure you know how to research a subject either online or at your local library.

Go for it the day we stop learning is the day we might as well lay down in our coffin and die (I reckon).

Fuelman

My Feedback: (6)

This simple debate has gone on long enough, so I figured I'd chime in.
I'm in agreement with X-Jet on the reasoning behind castor's reasons for flowing toward heat because of the drastic changes in viscosity index during tempreture changes.
You will most likely find the same/similar characteristics in any highly polar fluid that also has dramatic changes of viscosity index with tempreture change.

The reasoning behind why it does what it does, is not that important, the fact that it does migrate toward the heat source is the important part. Part of the reason that castor has become a "classic" lubricant is because of its ability to change states from a liquid to a solid film lubricant. Yes, that brown film on the piston is actualy a lubricant coating at operating tempreture, which provides the unique protection that castor is well known for.
This of course does not mean that castor is the best lubricant for this application, there is no such thing as "the best" when talking about lubricants for model engines. Much of what is better or worse as far as model lubricants are concerned, is application dependent. Running a modern high tech low viscosity synthetic in an old style bushed lapped iron piston/sleeve engine is asking for a short lifespan. Running an all castor in a modern tight tolerance 4 stroke is asking for more than necessary cleaning maintenance. So in that regard, castor still has a place in fuels for the grand majority of applications. It can only be replaced completly if a synthetic is developed which has dramatic viscosity changes with heat changes and the ability to varnish. This will probably never happen.

I am still a castor believer in most everything, but not in high quantities for most applications.
During countless hours and gallons of testing over the years, I have determined that a great deal of castor's benefits (corrosion protection, varnish film) is more than adequate in modern ABC/ABN/AAC/ or ringed engines (two or four stroke), when 2% to 4% quantity by volume is used in conjunction with a high end synthetic component. If an older technology synthetic is used, I prefer a bit more like 4% to 6%. In these lower quantities on high end synthetics, you do not get castor's drawbacks (excessive varnish, viscous friction).

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

I see you still can't provide any facts. Thats okay, I understand. [sm=lol.gif] I won't hold it against you.

XJet

Hey, the FuelMan agrees with me and he knows his stuff.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

As fuel man says . . . . so goes the world

Fuel man knows his stuff

wcmorrison

My Feedback: (2)

And the argument rages on. . . . Thus most of us use a blend of synthetic and Castor oil and keep our little engines running. Mr Clarence Lee says use 20% lubircant, I don't think he makes a recommendation between all synthetic and all Castor or a blend of both. Apparently 20% is good old breaking point; use less, run more risk, use more lose performance. You take your pick and does what you wants, and the results are yours.

Cheers,

Chip

XJet

I suspect Clarence's recommendations are based on the use of "old" oils rather than the new breed of hi-tech synthetics.

I've been running 12% oil for a couple of years now and had nothing but excellent results no worn out engines, no lube-related failures and a noticeable reduction in my total fuel costs. There are no downsides for me.

However, as you quite rightly point out, people are free to make their own choices based on their own beliefs and experiences.

Isn't freedom of choice a wonderful thing?

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Clarence has been an Omega man in the last 10 yrs

XJet

That explains why he needs 20% to get adequate protection.

There are many better oil packages than the one in Omega. I see no reason to handicap my engines by using relatively low-tech oils that do nothing except hike my fuel bill, mess up my plane and reduce the flight time I get from a tank of fuel.

If we adhered to the US school of "low tech oil is great" we'd still all be using straight 30-weight oil in our cars and changing it every 1,000 miles. Fortunately we now use far more advanced oils in our vehicles and reap the benefits in the form of better fuel economy, longer engine life and reduced maintenance.

Why not do the same with model engines?

downunder

The problem I see with synthetics, and why I avoid them, is that none of them will have been specifically designed for our type of engine with extremely high revs, bushed con rods etc because the market volume is so small. There are very good synthetics around but first you have to find one that mixes with methanol. That narrows the field for starters. What works in a go-kart using methanol may not be too good with a bushed rod. Scratch that too. Eventually some fuel manufacturer will come across one that fills the bill quite nicely and that's fine, but is it available everywhere? Look at Castrol M castor, it's wonderful stuff but no one in America uses it. Why? It's not available there so they're stuck with lower grades of castor and have no idea what they're missing out on.

I know of one guy who experimented with a synthetic and said it was absolutely marvellous, far better than anything else he'd ever tried. The only real problem was that the oil was made by NASA for the space shuttle so was probably about $1000 a litre .

RappyPilot

Well guys.

I tried using Cool power 5% in my OS91FX two weeks ago and last weekend I went flying, had a dead stick (Ran out of fuel) and gently landed my plane 10 feet short of the runway in long grass ... No damage whatsoever apart from a bunch of seeds from the long grass stuck to the oil residue on my wings....

Anyway, while cleaning my plane, I saw a few seeds stuck to the outside of my carb and used a rag to clean it (Don't wand seeds sucked into my engine, just now a tree comes growing out of the glow plug hole ) and as I looked down my carb I saw specs of brown stuff on my crack shaft. Went home and stripped the engine and it is rust!!!! Now I know the bottle said that you don't need after run in oil but I always run the engine dry and put in a few drops of good old sewing machine oil in my engines after a day of flying.

The engine is fairly new, has less than 20 flights on it so I am still running it a tad rich so. I am not sure if it is the fuel, or the fact that I used some oil after after flying or just that I have to treat my engine differently but, why the rust?

From here on I will stick to my own fuel. Not one of my engines have ever gotten brown spots or rust in them ...

I see now why it called Cruel Power ...

XJet

Morgans make great claims for their anti-corrosion additives but the reality is that PAG and ester-based synthetics don't provide good protection against rust.

Anyone using a pure synthetic is well advised to either add a couple of percent of castor to their brew or use some form of after-run protection to guard against corrosion.

I prefer the castor approach myself since I usually fly until late and can't be relied on to engage in an ARO routine with any regularity.

The problem with creating a good anti-corrosion additive is that in order to work, it has to increase the pH of the residue left in the engine crankcase. A low pH (acid) is what kicks off the rusting process. Unfortunately, aluminum tends to be corroded by anything with a high pH (alkaline) so it's a delicate balancing act between trying to neutralize the acid byproducts of corrosion and avoiding corrosion of the aluminum.

Castor seems to work as an anti-corrosion additive because it's a polar molecule which is (in effect) attracted to the steel components of the engine and becomes a protective layer (probably displacing the more acidic synthetic lube which then sits atop the castor on steel surfaces).

Castor won't completely solve corrosion problems in all cases. If you run hi-nitro or live in a particularly humid climate, or one where the ambient temperature regularly drops below dew-point, then you will probably need to take additional measures for long-term storage. However, a little castor can go a long way towards reducing the effects of corrosion on the steel parts in your engine in my experience that is.

RappyPilot

I am not too sure what they put in their fuel, plating additives, lubricity !?!?!?!? additives, anti this additive anti that additive. Don't like the fact much that when you open a bottle of their fuel that it smells a tad like acetone .... That scares me.

Well, I usually make fuel using Klotz KL200 oil. Works like a dream and have never had corrosion issues. (And it smells nice ) BUt then again I fly very often and never really store my engines for extended periods of time. And when I do I just make sure it has some sewing machine oil in it.

I am keen on possibly substituting a small % (Maybe a 20% castor and 80% synth) of Klots with Castor making a castor/synthetic blend.

XJet

Just buy their "Super Techniplate" oil, it has the castor already in it.

freeair

sometimes you can get rust build on the crankshaft below the carb venturi if you leave the carby open and not covered. this happened to me with a new PAW deisel engine that was never run but did have a coating of oil on the shaft . what i do with engines that i still use say every month is squirt in alot of auto transmission fluid [ best after run oil ] so the crankcase is just about full, this will protect both the bearings and crank then when it comes time to fly just invert the model and slowly turn the prop so the majority of oil flows out the carby venturi. this is a trick the model powerboat racers use.

RappyPilot

Had an interesting experience yesterday.

The hobby shop where I bought the Cool Power was the only one arond that had a few litres of nitro methane to spare.

While I was paying for it the guy was chatting about fuel to me and they say they only buy the oil from Morgans. Methanol gets bought locally and nitro is imported and then they blend it themselves.

So, getting back to Cool power being horrible fuel, I had a thought that nothing stops the hobby shop from adding their own additives etc .... Like I said in a previous post, the fuel did smell a lot like acetone ...

Anyway, be that as it may, I am staying away from their fuel, managed to get some nitro so I was able to blend a couple of galons of my own fuel :-)

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

I little bit of acetone in fuel helps stabilize the combustion. It makes the engine sound smoother and gives you a little better spread on the needle valve. The maximum is 5%

RappyPilot

I was never sure what acetone was used for. I asumed it might be so that castor will dissolve better in methanol.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Most of the criticism of Cool Power fuel is against the regular Cool power fuel with 18% synthetic oil

Cool Power 30 Heli fuel has 22% synthetic oil and it is not criticized.

Some Cool Power four stroke varieties has some castor oil. If it does, there is a label on the jug that say so

controlliner

To fuelman,
Do you know of anyone who has used olive oil instead of Baker AA castor. Sucessfuly.

summerwind

Xjet,

remember Fox Missle Mist?

Sport_Pilot

Obviously you don't compete under FAI rules. The varnish does not cause the engine to overheat, unless you let too much build up on the outside of the engine!

summerwind

Xjet,

thank you for your posts, and i completely agree with you.
we stopped using castor in our Free Flight (read that, "racing" engines years ago. going from castor based fuel (usually 60% nitro) to staight synthetic increased RPM, and life of the engine as well...............with castor we used to see a varnish build up that increased operating temps thus eventual destruction.

all this talk about Coolpower being "Cruelpower" is rubbish..........but i wonder why YS engines do not recommend fuel with castor oil in it?