quarterscalelegends

I am 100% against clones and HPI in no way deserves what these chineese rip off artists are doing.

FG started it all when they cloned the original 1/5 scale offroad buggy made by Yankee in France in the early 80's...

hellya

So using that... Are you mad a FG too for cloning Yankee?? Or mad at smartech for cloning FG?? or just mad at China for cloning Hpi???

Personally I like the fact that there are so many different 1/5 cars and trucks to choose from now as compaired to 3-4 years ago....its not a small hobby anymore

quarterscalelegends

FG cloned a yankee quite closely but yankee was going out of business. When smartech cloned the FG products exactly they crossed a line but then again, they were cloning 15yr old technology. HPI is a totally different story as in they designed a completely new 1/5 scale car from the ground up without utilizing any parts used in previous large scale cars with the exception of the engine and clutch. HPI has spent more money and time developing this car then anyone could even imagine. To have someone come out and copy it part by part is just plain wrong. People that think HPI is making 50% so they deserve it are not thinking straight and do not understand what it costs to run such an operation. Stating that you cant afford the original is not an excuse either. No matter what Obama makes you believe, the truth is that EVERYONE can not have the same privileges or stuff. Buying a HPI clone is no different then buying copies of movies or buying a stolen car. If you can’t afford it, then buy something within your means.

huw4027

Vehicles and there clones......hmmmm... I realize that it must be hard for a manufacturer to spend so much
on R&D and come out with a product just to have some knock off made and selling for less than half the price.
The other side of the coin is that consumers on a tight budget who really can't afford the original can afford the clone. Sometimes i wonder if the manufacturers of the originals are over charging us....just a thought.
In most cases the clone is made of inferior parts but again it is very affordable. You have two markets...originals and clones and i feel the world is big enough to support both. Personally i don't like clones but the good LORD has blessed me enough that i can afford the "real deal" but i am not against anybody that does and i have read some pretty good reviews on the Rampage which is a clone so let us lighten up and respect each other's choices. [8D]

Miami Jato

Thanks FG for getting me out of NITRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jimjeep

Yeah, rock on with both the clones and the originals! The originals give us great new designs made of decent parts, while the clones get newcommers on a budjet into this great hobby with cheaper prices and cheaply made parts that make people buy the better parts from the OEM (a sales market that they would have never had without the clones), and then there's the aftermarket giving us the choice to buy all kinds of hop-ups of often superior made parts than what either originally came with!

Can't really knock the cloners either for the fact that if someone doesn't patent and copyright their work (shame on the creators) it is free game for anyone to copy and produce for profit. Doesn't exactly seem totally ethical but then again neither is making an erroneous amount of profit for the sake of being the big name or the only game in town so to speak. Competition is healthy even if it is cloning. Anything from a box of cereal to a television or even a light bulb no matter what brand is basically a copy of the next with only a few changes if any at all.

Personally, I prefer getting something well made for the price whether it is an original or a copy made either cheaper or made better. We all find our own preferences that work for us and that creates a nice variety and becomes a driving force in our hobby. I remember when Kyosho and Tamiya were the only games in town and everything was electric. It was great to see all the new companies emerge over the years (even if most all the designs were just about the same) and I look forward to seeing where our hobby goes in the future. Maybe even mainstream! The clones (like 'em or not) might just help take the hobby there.

As a great compliment to all the OEM's out there designing these products. The sincerest form of flattery is imitation.

SAVAGEJIM

I personally dislike clones, but my dislike really goes deeper; mercantilism. I will leave it at that word and wont go much deeper than that.

I agree, competition is good, but it has to be PROPER and HEALTHY competition in which the competing companies actully supplement and complement one another. Aside from large scales, nitros and electrics have been hit by cloning too. An example is Smartech cloning the Traxxas TMaxx (I told this story before, but I cannot remember if I said it here). Smartech illegally cloned it, even down to the Traxxas logo on the parts. And they (or some Smartech fans) had the gall to say that Smartech was cloning the TMaxx under contract or liscense when that was not the case. (Traxxas themselves will tell you straight up that they never gave them any sort or permission to clone the TMaxx). I am pretty sure the Smartech clone, which is poorer in quality, is one of the reasons why many think the TMaxx is a sucky RC because they could be mistaking crappy clone for a real TMaxx.

This is one instance how clones hurt the real company. Also, clones undercut the price of the original. Since clones come mostly from China, they have several advantages that undermine the original companies: Cost. The coners get money to do business, where the original companies do not. The cloners also have the advantage of having way cheaper labor (numerous reasons for that) and are not under as stringent of maunfactuing rules (again, numerous reasons for that) as the original companies. So they are not cheap just because they might be made more cheaply, they have other serious advantages as well.

I mentioned in a previous post of how the RC industry has fled the US and what Gil Losi though about that. The RC making exodus is a direct result of the overly price undercutting. No, clones are not the reason for this RC exodus and price cutting, but they are part of the reason why manufacting left.

I want to say so much more, but I cant. Cloning is just one dirty aspect that I dislike what is happening in RCs, but there are so many more reasons behind it. I will not talk about these.

Nutech GmbH

I Didn't know Smartech cloned Tmaxx and put traxxax logo on it. can you show some evidence?

I also don't know Tmaxx is a real sucky RC or not.

victory-rc

How can this thread be the " OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market " ...thread ??
...its been done before.... you cloned it.[X(][>:][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]

If you like the clone buy it,if you dont then dont buy it.

FGmyzer

Why must peoples political veiws come into play???? This is a hobby for everyone!!! Not just because you have the money to buy a Baja and I dont makes you a better person because you buy HPI and I buy a clone??? Who is anyone to say anything is wrong with buying a clone or a original.

Foxy

You have to roll with it and take the good with the bad. The large scale hobby is in it's biggest ever boom right now, so all is not lost. The clones are also partly responsible for this boom, they've made gassers affordable to the low budget hobbyist. That's the biggest positive influence the cloning has had. Sure it's a bad thing from some perspectives, but it has done more good than harm.

SAVAGEJIM

No denying that at all, and I agree with you, the expansion of the large scale aspect of the hobby is a good thing in some respects.

But what irks me is there are clone owners who will never give an original brand a try, yet they have the nerve to say that the fans of the original brand should try a clone before passing judgement. I am not saying all clone owners are like that, I can think of at least 10 RCU large scale owners that have both originals and clones. But there are those stubborn folks who will pass judgement on the originals and bash the originals as being merely overpriced and they have yet to even own one. And they will even brag and say that they will never own an original; just as short-sighted a mindset as an original owner never owning a clone if you ask me.

I can understand someone buying a clone to get into the hobby, and that is how the Chinese RC companies market themselves. But once in the hobby, I believe that the newcomer should also expand further into the hobby and buy an RC from one of the original guys too. If for anything, to at the very least give some due credit to the original guys who actually spent time and money creating the original from the ground up.

Personally, I im in line with Mike of QSL: This is not a cheap hobby, and I personally believe that it being an expensive hobby instills some sense of responsibility. Knowing that you paid a grand or more for a gasser will help keep you in check so that you dont indiscreminatly and purposefully go out and run into things knowing that you can fix it cheaply. And that is not just bashing in a field, even if one is unwise enough to run on a used roadway and happens to crash into someone's parked car, house, or other property.
I do not mean to be elitist about this, I just say the hobby should not be cheap, and anyone who wants a gasser should save up. If a clone is what you can afford right now, I say save up and buy an original. Hold off on the instant gratification and practice the self-discipline to buy the original, which in most cases is better than the copy. And also, I feel that self-discipline will translate into responsibility and accountability.

SAVAGEJIM

The proof is not from my own mouth, like I said, it is directly from Traxxas themselves. You can call Traxxas (their CS) and they will tell you directly. I am not a Traxxas employee, so you can ignore what I say, but by hearing it directly from Traxxas themselves, that is a different story.


>>>Mods, if I may, to support my claim, I am posting this link to the Traxxas site. If I shouldnt be linking this, please feel free to edit this post and delete everything after the ">>>"
See post number 50 of this link
http://monster.traxxas.com/showthrea...=402735&page=2

Foxy

No mention of Smartech there, apart from the magic wheel. Anyway, back to topic please, this is the large scale forum. We all know that Smartech started in the business with clones, and now they've moved up to original designs. In any case, the cloning of smaller scale models is a totally different kettle of fish, with much larger markets. I've been avoiding mentioning this cos I felt it would get off topic, but anyway... You don't hear smaller scale owners pissing and moaning about the clones, at least not like us large scale guys do. They just accept it as a fact of life.

Fudge

My Feedback: (104)

Well here is my 2 cents, i had a 5b, and bought the clone, and the clone SUCKS, it kept braking, motor was not reliable, so my advice for any one out there, buy the good stuff don't get the clones, you will spend the same amount on the clone in fixing as you would if you bought the real car/truck!

FGmyzer

My friend bought a 5b broke the rear shocks the first day.They all have problems

speedy.d

what do i want next christmas? an mcd ultimate mt!........what do my finances allow?

i am thankful for the clones.

that being said, i would buy a real 5b over a km, and i dont consider the redcat a clone.but in the world of high dollar 4wd without the clones i would not have been so eager to get into large scale. somebody stated earlier about how they didnt like the clone owners sticking their noses up at the originals. and owners of the real thing are better than the clones. i do not see it this way.....at all.in my neck of the woods i am surrounded by guys with very high dollar machines. they are great guys and it is a privilege to run with them, however they have access to the best of the best and i have to scrape and pinch just to keep running. but i do.and i have great fun doing it.with out these chinese cars this would not be possible.

i just want to own them all!

stewtheman

What??? I don't recall ever reading a post with more outrageous statements than this! I've read this entire thread now (which i must say has been thoroughly entertaining) and am dumbfounded that after several users posted sound logic and foxy continually provided the voice of reason, this post somehow found its way into this thread. I'm sorry if anyone finds this offensive but it is incredibly immature to claim that you are proportionately more responsible as you spend more and more money on a hobby (and I mean any hobby)! I mean, really? If I were to follow this logic to its furthest extent I would be one of the world's most responsible people if I were only willing to liquidate my house and my car and all of my savings and dump them into the ultimate original anti-clone 1/5th scale truck! And when my wife's family would ever so gently inquire as to where I got such a firm understanding of responsibility that neglected to care for my wife, four month old daughter, and any other meaningful thing in my life, I would simply reply that I studied at the SAVAGEJIM School of Responsibility.

But seriously, there's only one valid argument against cloning and that involves the legality of this practice. I think it has been established in this thread that, as angry as it makes some people, there are no laws preventing clones from being manufactured. So, the rest is just opinion and should be acknowledged as such, and nothing more. And I think that some clone buyers should start getting some credit for exercising "self-discipline" in actually considering their families more important than having to buy top of the line R/C's. I'll be the first to say that R/C's are fun, but if this hobby ever starts putting my family on the back burner I really hope I get a good dose of priorities really fast! Does that resonate with anyone else?

victory-rc

NICE

Very well said.... its a hobby ....THIS SUBJECT IS BEAT TO DEATH

SAVAGEJIM

Listen stew, what is so outrageous what I said? You want to low ball, you go do that, but keep in mind there are consequences, not to you, since you get a good deal, but the consequences are there. This is what I believe. I will not back down from what I belief, and you obiously will not from yours.

Really, you need to be much more diplomatic in expressiong your opinion, you mentioned Foxy, then I strongly suggest you follow his lead in how he keeps it diplomatic. Even where Foxy and I believe differently, do you see us throwing at each other calling each others outrageous, incredibly immature, or using off the wall extreme examples of neglecting your family, or saying anything sarcastic as MY School of Responsibility?
You are far from diplomatic and even insulting here. So take a step back, ease up, and consider how you are expressing yourself. You coming on here and posting this makes you sound angry and like you have a chip on your shoulder and want to start some sort of flame war.

Vic is right, this topic has been beaten to death with anger from both sides. And unless you can come in here and present your belief in a calm manner, you really should not have brought back this thread.

I expressed what I believe, trying not to anger anyone, and you have strongly stated what you believe too, well, very harshly. Lets leave it at that if you cannot at least show some modicom of respect in expressing what you believe.

Good day to you Stew.

ZX9RBART

I always wanted a 1/5 scale but the price always kept me at bay, I dont necessarily believe in the morals behind the clones but they did what some say they will do. I bought 3 KM baja's, fell in love and am very impressed with the quality, so much so that I had to try the real thing so I bought a FG sportsline, sure it was used but the parts I am buying for it are original FG parts and supporting the company. I love it so much that I am getting a second one tomorrow.... so for my family at least, the clones have led me to the real thing and everyone is happy (at my house at least). In the future there are certain situations where I will buy clone and certain where I will buy OEM. And every part or upgrade I have bought for the KM's has been HPI (besides the engine, I bought a g260 because lets face it, the engine in the HPI is a clone itself) so even they are profiting from me.

SAVAGEJIM

Personally, I have come to accept that; people buying a clone as their first RC, but at least you did go and buy an original as you advanced into the hobby.

Though I personally still do not like clones and how they have driven ALL RC production overseas by price undercutting, at least I do admire you for eventually buying an original. Supporting the original actually allows the original companies to invest in R&D to develop newer RCs and bring new innovations to us.

And most of all, thanks for keeping calm in posting here.

SAVAGEJIM

Well Vic, this is exactly what I am trying to avoid. There have been flame wars on this dead horse in the past, and another flame war is the last thing we need here.

ZX9RBART

Far from my first RC but first 1/5 indeed. Been into this since I was a kid (35 now, yikes). Have 3 kids and to buy 3 HPI baja's was out of the question. You are right though, they opened the door for me on large scale. I saw my first 1/5 in Indianapolis in 1999 when i was buying a Kyosho F10 from a guy, slight drool ever since. I completely understand the logistics behind the moral battle with the clones and the R&D required to make an original. These were my first clones, all of my others have been OEM, and anyone my age knows that years ago clones were not an option, you bought the good stuff or you watched. I am mildly upset that cars like my F10 sit on a shelf because I can not get parts for it anywhere so I dont want to break it, but thats another topic. It looks to me as most who have bought the clones have upgraded them with OEM parts and in reality, thats where the money is. The initial investment usually does not come close to what a company makes off of parts and the fact that not many clone parts are available leads most of us to want to buy better parts. My km has all ss shocks, ss aluminum diff, g260rc, spektrum dx3r, so quite a few OEM companies have made money off of me and will continue to do so. To be perfectly honest, I would have spent the money on HPI from the start until I found out that they themselves use a clone engine, there are moral issues their that may not go as deep but in the end are quite the same. As for staying calm...why fight? we are all trying to promote a hobby we love, I have received alot of help and guidance from this site and have no plans on ruining it for someone who just joins and reads flaming and bashing which turns him away. Without us buying and maintaining these cars there would be no reason for them to be produced and sold.......and then we are all sad. So to sum it up, thanks for all the help and support in the threads I have made or posted in. Without this support I wouldnt have bought the clones.....and therefore wouldnt have bought OEM upgrade parts..... and wouldnt have bought OEM cars and parts for them.

SAVAGEJIM

I agree, this is a hobby that I too love, and yes I also believe it should be promoted, and for those already in it, they should be helped to advance along into the hobby. I now do try to help those where I think I can, clone RC or real deal RC.
I do frequent the KM, FS, SQ, and Firehammer threads, but I dont post in there anymore, everyone already knows my beliefs so I dont see any need to reopen any old wounds. I read those threads because there is a wealth of information in them and even to this day, still learn more. Also, if someone has a question about those RCs, I give them the links to those threads because that person can find virtually every answer he has questions for.

Because of my beliefs, I still suggest the real deal RCs, but I try my best to temper that as more of a gentle nudge instead of a hard push. If I do push, forgive me if it is a hard push at times, I really want it to be a gentle nudge of a suggestion. But as I said, clone or real deal RC, if someone has a problem and asks a question, I will still try to help. And of course, I do provide a link to the appropriate existing clone thread sonce those guys actually have done virtually everything with their own clones and know what to do.