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OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

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Old 02-13-2008, 12:51 PM
  #1
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Default OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Since I locked the previous thread on this topic, as it simply got too heated, a couple of you contacted me stating that you would like to discuss the issue further.

I want to make it clear that if the discussion cannot remain civil and degenerates into mud slinging like the other one did, I will not hesitate to lock it again, and subsequently may remove any further attempts to start a thread on the subject. There are some threads which no matter how hard we try, cannot be kept on a 'level'. Think of the Revo vs Savage debate, if you want an example. Lets try not to make this a taboo subject in this forum and discuss it in a civil way. I'll take this opportunity to remind you of the relevant rules that are likely to be broken in this thread. It will be heavily moderated for compliance with the following...
[ul][*] No politics[*] No flaming[*] No manufacturer bashing[*] No ebay links (except under exceptional circumstances)[*] No advertising or shilling.
[/ul]
If we can all manage that, then let the discussion continue. Thanks guys...
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:56 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Cool, it'll be nice to see how this goes. If my FS racing car ever arrives I'll participate
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:45 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Thanks Foxy for opening this thread up.

Personally, I want to throw my hat in the ring and say that cloning is good for any business. PERIOD. It is good for HPI, it is good for the sport, that is my opinion and I can back it up with plenty of historic examples. Besides I don't think HPI even has any kind of Patent protecting the design of the 5b. If a product begins to be a big seller, big enough to warrant a "cloning" from a cloning company in China, then that means that usually means that company has a large market share and someone thinks that there is a big market yet to be tapped (with lower priced clones). This is simply the worlds way of keeping companies honest and holding them to task and to create some good competition, maybe inspire them to make improved designs and maybe even lower priced offerings.
I understand the whole thing about engineering and designs being ripped off is not a good thing for manufacturers, but really it is more of a wake up call. It is consumers saying, "Nice product, I would buy it, but I either can't afford it or it is not worth that much to me, however if it were 25-50% less, I'll take 2!" I work in the Pharma Industry alot as a consultant and most people say they should not be allowed to sell medecine for that much, "they are getting rich, and we are paying the price" Pharmaceutical companies sell their pills that keep some of us alive for $5-$10 per pill they have a right, after all they did all the research and development didn't they? And wait they do have legal patents. But guess what, those legal patents expire after 7-10 years and then the "generic companies" come in and make the same drugs, but give them to us for $.50 per pill, how dare they. Wow now the Pharmas know they have to reinvest that money into making a new drug that they could sell for 7-10 years and make alot of money.

The fact is that HPI made a great design in the Baja 5b, and we all have paid for it for years. In fact it is such a great product that someone is going to copy it, (sincerest form of flattery). The Clones are not going to have any parts available for it, they will use HPI Racing parts (If thats not an endorsement). And this is all bad for HPI why? Fact: It is time that HPI lower their price Why? Simple business, if people are willing to buy a Clone because it is cheaper, then your price is too high. If they want to keep their product "Premium" then so be it. Folks will buy clones. Remember if clones are selling for $375 US that means they have to cost less than $175 to produce. How much it cost HPI to make these, my bet is easily less than $175, ok maybe a few bucks more $200 US, add in marketing, nice packaging and we are at $250.00 max. Again this is my opinions based off of my experience in manufacturing and importing quads and dirtbikes from Chinese companies for a few years.

Something to think about: Once upon a time I remember when IBM was the only company putting out PCs (licensed) IBM invented it and coined the term PC, then they licensed it out to a certain few companies, just trying to keep the prices high 3-4 thousand for a PC. Then came all the Clones, Gateway, Dell, and the rest of the gang from computer shopper. PC clone started a revolution in computing like we've never seen, PCs for under $2000.00. All of a sudden everyone could afford a PC. And the best part, most of them could use parts from IBM PCs and were compatible with them in almost every way. Everyone was buying PCs, printers, software you name it. IBM went from the top provider/supplier of PCs to not even a blip in the consumer PC market. They hung on to the business PC market until big companies started buying Dell and Gateways for half the price. IBM finally came around and began competing with the clones, but soon enough it did not matter because IBM was making so much money in services and software as a direct result of this PC explosion, that would never have happened without IBM PC clones.

From the previous thread:
Hey HammerRC,
PM me when you get them clones and you can vouch for the quality that you are holding in your hand, maybe take some high quality pictures, point out the differences etc. I hope it works out and they are decent quality clones.



Well maybe cloning the HPI or other successful RC cars won't revolutionize our society like the PC clone, but it certainly may bring alot more folks into our world who otherwise cannot afford 1000 bucks just to get in. Not sure if 700 is going to do it, but its a good start.

GO CLONES!!! Anyone with good clone scoop, URLs or whatever feel free to PM me. I am looking for a few new vehicles but I am going to be mostly rebuilding them with aftermarket parts and/or beating them up, and getting some of my friends who maybe can't afford HPI into a clone.

Thanks for reading,

Ray

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Old 02-13-2008, 02:13 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

If this thread is still open when I get time I will reply. 4 hours of work left []
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:15 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Monkey see,monkey do,monkey buy,monkey cry.
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:37 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Also since this seems to be open discussion on cloning, not specific to any vendor, I am curious if other companies' models were cloned and if so how close were the clones (Parts compatible with parent product) and what was quality of that clone. My comments stemmed mostly from a previous thread that was discussing the HPI Baja 5b clones in particular.
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:49 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

I am not a fan nor an I a supporter of clones. In my experience, spend a little more up front, any you will be happier in the long run.

This topic interests me though.

We all have choices to make, some make the rite ones, and some well eventually make the rite ones.
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:49 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluebrew

Monkey see,monkey do,monkey buy,monkey cry.
This is my FG clone....I have had my clone for years..............Competition is good ....clones are 90-95% of a original product.

Everything that FG uses on their vehicles I can use on the clone!!! Except the motor mounts and a couple other items

My clone cost $450....then I added $1500 in upgrades
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:52 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

hellya, who is that made by?
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:53 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Quote:
ORIGINAL: clubin

hellya, who is that made by and do you have a little bigger picture?
That is my Firehammer I resized the photo
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:55 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market


Quote:
ORIGINAL: hellya

Quote:
ORIGINAL: clubin

hellya, who is that made by and do you have a little bigger picture?
That is my Firehammer I resized the photo
WOW I did not knolw they were a clone of the FG.
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Old 02-13-2008, 02:59 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluebrew

Monkey see,monkey do,monkey buy,monkey cry.
Wow! You musta been on the debating commitee.

Seriously though, simplistic as it is, this may be a relevant contribution.

Dawolf, I'd like to kepe the subject to large scale, as this is a large scale forum, but since I've raced and owned the major nitro classes, I can field that one for you. Yes, almost every successful nitro vehicle has been cloned at one time or another. Some companies have licensed clones (Redcat, Exceed, Ansmann (Ansmann in particular make very good quality clones of the Hyper 7 buggy (which itself was a VERY good car) at a very good price), it's called the virus), others are unlicensed, but a number of companies in nitro and electric 1/18th to 1/8th scales have become large and successful on the clone market. The large scale scene is in it's infancy still, even though there are some well supported and long running models (as there also were before tamiya popularised RC in general 25 years ago), the entry of HPI to the market is only now bringing large scale to the mainstream. Remember when nitro cars were all 2wd, then came the 4wd, now there's very few 2wd except in the specific racing classes (like 1/10th stadium truck and electric buggy).

Anyway, to bring this full circle and back on topic, cloning is part of the logical cycle for the progression of a class or fuel, as it matures. Eventually, the real high quality racing machines will be beyond the capabilities of the cloners due to expense of materials. You don't see clones of Xray cars for example. Why not? Because the whole car is carbon fiber and T6 ally, and would not work properly if it was plastic and steel. So eventually, the cloners will lose to the high quality, high price brands, but that will be in the future when the HPI Baja as an example will be considered a basher precursor to the prevalent models.
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:04 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

forum is to share negative and positive point of the current subject or topic not to indulge in heated arguement.keep it up in reminding[>:]
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:15 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

well, i'm sitting here eating some very wonderful Chili. And infront of me i have a package of Saltine brand name crackers, and a pacakge of shaw's brand, and i got to say, the clone is not as good, but it costs $.03 less than the brand name.
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:28 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Quote:
Monkey see,monkey do,monkey buy,monkey cry.
Ford designed the automobile.............all other cars are clones????
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:36 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Wow hellya...that looks like a quality clone. How does it match up parts wise, have you found any Firehammer parts that fit, don't fit. Have you had the real and the clone together to compare?

Also Where did you get it from...I'd like to see if they still carry it, or if anyone does carry it. (PM a link if you have it to adhere to the rules set forth).
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:48 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

the firehammer can be bought from http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...=LXGMP7**&P=ML

OR on ebay you can get deals there New $600-800

Parts switch out with the FG alloy no problem clutch bell pinion,motor mounts & the rear diff internal gears from FG dont
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:51 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Those firehammers are nice, go like gang busters.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:11 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

The Firehammer..... is the same as XTM, Carson Attack, Smartech Traveller and the Spider are all the same clone from different manufactures .......and FG parts work on all of them!!!
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:27 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

A couple of years ago I picked up a tamiya tlt-01 clone (baja king) off ebay. What a mistake that was, totally hooked now. Now I have 2 electrics, 3 nitros, and a 1/5 scale, all clones or knock-offs, with hundreds and hundreds spent on hop-ups and related gear from ebay and my LHS. In total a few thousand, with more to go. I wouldn't have gotten in the hobby without clones. Yes, a lot of the clones out there are low-end, low quality blah blah blah. The hobby can't be all high end, just like everything else can't be. If you want high quality, pay for it, if not, comprimise. If my next purchase is a 1/5 truck and I have a choice of MCD or a clone, I'd pick the clone. If my only choice was a MCD, I would go without (unless I had way more disposable income than I do) I can see how clones can ruin the hobby for some (poor quality, assembly, parts, etc), but I think the benefits for the industry and hobbiests out weigh the negative.
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:54 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Well, here's how I see it. Kingmotor just shot me a price for the baja clone....$420 plus $135 for shipping. $555 compared to $950 for the real one. Yet like most of you, I plan on changing just about everything that comes with the car (engine, pipe, radio gear, swapping out plastic parts for aluminum) so the money saved by buying the clone can go to all the hop-up parts. Who's gonna know the difference? Who cares.
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:37 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

How many folks have bought from kingmotor so far? any confirmed deliveries yet, experiences...
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:54 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

Just to let everyone know. The HPI Baja 5B clone that is circulating is exact. Pretty much these are the only differences:
The back axle is thinner. The HPI part is still interchangeable.
The receiver box is different. I am unsure of the the interchangeability as I am testing it.

I have ran other bajas, raced one, and bashed one. The plastic is the same quality. Same quality vehicles and as fast too.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:05 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

The only thing clones are good for is promotion of the largescale hobby to new clientelle who can not justify the high purchase price of a "serious" machine,

..... and repairing stuff like this:

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Old 02-13-2008, 07:11 PM
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Default RE: OFFICIAL Discussion for the Pros and Cons of Clones in the Market

OUCH........Thats a $600 repair job[] Driver error??? No failsafe or malfunction of???

Zigged when you should have zagged???
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