mars

Agree.
The sailplane etc.... forum here only see's like 5 or so posts a day. I see no need for a Hotliner only forum. It would be awfully lonely in there @ 10 posts per month. There is another site with a HUGE sailplane,glider,hotliner following. RCU seems to draw more of a broad spectrum of modelers, which is a good thing.

And sailplanes are not dull at all.

dhewson6

Jay,

I've had two Ions and a Siren. I agree that there are significant differences between the two but I think you're painting a picture with a chasm a bit too wide between the two. My opinion.

My first Ion I flew on ten GP300's, Plettenberg A20/220/A2/P4 pylon 5:1 and Aeronught 15X13. Flew great, lots of fun, well mannered with plenty of performance. Lasted about eight months until on a long straight in approach I flew it THROUGH some power lines. End of plane. The second one I set up as follows: Hacker B50 9S, sixteen GP3300's, Graupner cam 16X13. Watt meter said 1360 watts, static. On the maiden flight it went straight away and up quickly. I shut the motor off and leveled the plane off, played with the trim a little to get it tracking level and straight. Then I thought I would make a high altitude, relatively high speed pass to observe how the plane would behave at speed. Leveled thr wings, pointed the nose down slightly, maybe about 5-10 degrees,hit the throttle for about one to one and a half secs. to accelerate the plane and then watched closely the plane was coming across the sky pretty fast when suddenly the wing seperated from the fuse. The wings fluttered to the ground, but the fuse sure didn't, it crashed into a gravel/asphalt area. Destroyed everthing from the prop spinner back to the tail servo. After collecting the pieces I sat down to look at the mess. What I found was this: Both wing halves had a large, about dime size holes where the wing bolts used to be. The fuse still had both bolts in place, both with pieces of balsa and covering under bolts shoulder. In other words the wings lifted and pulled right through the wing bolts causing the in flight failure. Upon closer inspection of the wing bolt points I could see a small plastic bushing used to keep the bolt from crushing the wing. But there was NO re-inforcement of any sort in the wing hold down area, just the wing itself, obeechi and foam.

My point regarding the above is that you might want to be careful setting this plane up in a high wing loading, high power situation.
I talked to the vendor, (probably not who you would think), and after a little discussion I told him that my position was that I set up and flew the plane within specs and it's flight envelope. The ensueing in flight failure has cost me approximately $800.00. Did he have any sugestions regarding what we could do? Oh,I freely admitted that I unerstood that he didn't design, build or have anything to do with the plane other than sell it. At one point he said that from what I told him it sounded like it was a design failure, not pilot error which was my position. He asked if I had any photos he could look at, which I did and emailed them to him. He had said that after he looked at the pictures he would get back to me. After a couple of weeks with no response I e-mailed him asking for a reply. No go. after that I made two calls and left messages and agian no reply. That's where the matter sits. So.........

Sorry if I got a little long winded.

Dewey

driftair

My Feedback: (4)

Hi Dewey,

Sorry the wing was so cheaply made as to pop thru the lock down bolts!
Which plane was that? the ION or the Siren?

If I was to purchase either, which upon reading your report I probably will not! I would want to reinforce the wing with some fiberglass at the very least.

While I enjoy some of the low prices that can sometimes be found on planes, I do not like poor quality. I realize that many manufacturers over seas make about 1/10 of what we wind up paying for their products. This leaves me feeling amazed and very grateful when they warranty their products with replacement or repair. I feel certain that some at least do not make anything by providing warranties of any kind, they simply stand behind their products because they are good people who feel it is good for buisness etc.

As for products made in the U.S. I cannot say I believe the same applies in many cases. I am continually amazed at how it would seem that huge companies (as well as others) seem to believe that people will still be able to purchase their products when they and others refuse to pay livable wages and provide reasonable health care and a retirement plan, for their employees.

Meanwhile politicians legislate huge pay increases for themselves, and then declare that more new taxes are needed, and everyone except themselves is making and spending too much money!

What is the 'cause?' The cause? Yes, why do things happen as they do? there must be reasons behind why things are done, right?

This applies to everything! including acts of violence at whatever level. Except for the truly insane, people act and react for a reason.
Think about it. If people are not acting with a purpose then they are playing either victim or slave.
Competition in many cases seems to undermine co-operation!

Yes, I could go on but probably should have stopped awhile back.

Good day.

CSR

dhewson6

It was the Ion.

D.

driftair

My Feedback: (4)

Thanks Dewey, I will stay away fromt he ION.

driftair

My Feedback: (4)

It would be nice to have a special complaint section where pilots can report on bad, poor, weak, and otherwise undesirable qualities in planes that it may be best to not purchase. Does anyone know if their is such a section?

CSR

DrZiplok

Based on one lone report from someone that admittedly pushed it right to the edge, and despite the hundreds of folks like myself, Jay and in fact Dewey himself who have flown and enjoyed the Ion on slightly more modest setups?

That seems pretty unreasonable.

= Mike

dhewson6

I agree with Mike. Although I had a bad experience with one airframe set up under high power/weight conditions, that certainly does'nt mean that the Ion is a bad plane, not at all. The conditions were possibly a bit extreme and who knows exactly what happened. Maybe a flaw in the wood, maybe sudden wind shear, etc. I would not hesitate to buy another one and probably will. It's a breat airplane on 10-12 cells. Certainly don't let my previous post influence your opinion of this plane.

Dewey

avi8er

So let's get back to the original question; "What is a hotliner?" I flew one that a friend of mine had but we only used it for mind blistering speed and big aerobatics. It clearly had roots in the sailplane world but the little experience I had I could not tell, will it thermal? I am considering getting back to gliders and I would like to get a nice slick glass job (my last one was a Spirit 2) since I am now enjoy speed and power. My question is to what kind of compromises are made between thermalling ability and 100 mph dead stick fly-bys. Any help?

James

rebuilding my hangar because I got rid of most of my aircraft when I joined the Army

DrZiplok

Mass and airfoil are the two that come immediately to mind.

Fast airfoil and lots of mass for the screaming passes. Lifty airfoil and least mass for best thermalling ability.

= Mike

mars

Energy retention.

avi8er

Let me rephrase the question; is it possible to have a ship that does screaming passes that can slow down real well for thermalling? I know it is not going to be quite as lofty as a lightly loaded wing but I am unsure of what kind of performance is available. I would hate to spend all that cash and not be able to still have nice long flights.

mars

Im not sure if you could get the best of both worlds in one plane.

Maybe a warmliner?

DGManley

Hi J: (Jay?)

I have a question . . . didn't you at one time have a Pletti -- a seven cell puppy -- for sale? I thought I saw a geared 220/15 in the ads. If so, did you manage to conclude a successful free enterprise venture?

Dave

jbenko

My Feedback: (73)

Wow - all this talk of warmliners, hotliners, strawberry shortcakes and whatever else.......we all have our points of view I guess.

Admittedly I'm a Sunday flyer wannabe 3D guy and at best I consider myself an intermediate level pilot. I have fun with my UCanDo 60, and 3D foamies BUT nothing, I mean nothing has been as much fun as the GP Siren I've been flying for the last few months. This is only my second sailplane and the first one was an E-Flight Odyssey which was very tame. My Siren setup is AXI 2826/10, Jeti 40Amp ESC, Kokam 3S1P 3200Mah Lipo(20C) and CAM 13x7 prop. With this setup it will go straight up and give me some good high speed passes but inertia retention seems a bit lacking as it bleeds off speed pretty quickly. Depending on how aggressively I fly I can stay up almost an hour but most flights are 30 minutes or so. My Kokam Lipo is not even getting warm with this setup and I'm sure I'll be trying out a 14x9.5 before long. One thing though, I never leave for the field without the Siren these days and it's always the plane I fly first and last for the day. The whistle as it flies by is intoxicating, for lack of a better word and just looks so damn pretty in the air.....

I think the Siren will make performance sailplanes more accessible to the masses and for those of us, like me, who get hooked on hotliners will move on to the ION's and Big Excel's. I see an ION in my future for sure. I'll still fly the UCanDo, 3D and warbird foamies, the occasional bipe or Extra 300. HOWEVER, the Siren just makes me smile....... The guys that say sailplanes are boring just haven't flown one that performs. I know of two guys at my field with Sirens in the works after seeing mine fly.....and isn't that the best compliment you could get?


Jeff Benko
Gold Coast Radio Controllers

saratoga

My Feedback: (1)

I am thinking of getting a Siren. I recently lost my Kyosho Viento in the Blue Pacific. Simultaneously Tower Hobbies stopped selling the plane. The Siren has appeared and it seems to be a close copy of teh Viento except for T-tail and no rudder. The outer wing connection spars are exaclty the same design. Anyhow, I will tell you that the Viento thermalled beautifully but some high speed decent and flybys resulted in a fluttering wing. I never glued the wings in to a single piece. I am ready to try some more hotliner type plane and the Siren is a contestant.

Does anyone know of a scratch build design for a hotliner?

baseclass

I just finished my siren and its first flight was last weekend. It was outstanding!

My goal was to try a 'fast glider' before investing the big bucks in a true hotliner. I'm more of a sport flyer but have 10 years of experience on everything from trainers to helicopters and I'm always looking for something new. This plane fits that bill.

I went with the Kontronic 480 geared with a 3 cell 2100mah LiPo and a 13x8 folding prop (will probably be changing that soon however). With this combination I'm at 400 watts.

Notes:

1) I balance about 1/2" back from the suggested CG due to the light battery (and it was shoved clear into the nose against the motor). It seems to fly fine but I wouldn't suggest this as the first plane for anyone. I use spoilerons and it still lands a bit fast.

2) The suggested servo mounting made me nervous. Invest some time to make mounting rails in both wing and tail.

3) I ended up with a very slight misalignment in one wing joint. It's very small but it still bugs me. Had I not followed the instruction steps, it could have been avoided. The instructions call for gluing the joiner to the outer panel, let dry, then join to inner panel. This begs for a mis-alignment. Do both steps at the same time (30 min. epoxy)

4) If you're patient, you can thread a pushrod tube through one wing half and mount the receiver right on the wing center section. This avoids having your antenna running outside of the fuse and avoids the certain doom if you try and run it through the fuse.

5) I got five fantastic climbouts (3-5 sec. of full power) and around 45 minutes total flying time off one charge. When I recharged, my triton showed the pack only took 1700mah so I probably had another climbout or two. Again this was on a 2100mah lipo.

Anyone 'thinking' about trying this model out, GO FOR IT. You won't be sorry.

SS2P

A very good competition hotliner is NSP Twister 3 F5B.. Right now, I'm having a blast here.
With the Neu 1509/1D/6.7 or 5B/10/1D/6.7 geared motor and 14 x 9 prop, this baby pulls around 1000 watts! I have 250 watts/ per pound power right now.

This is what they say .

" Neu F5B Competition Motor System-Li-Poly-LMR This is very Hot!We start with the Neu 5B/10/1D/6.7 Competition Motor ! We add the Phoenix 125 Brushless sensorless Speed control, then the Duralite 3S 2P 5000 mah Li-Poly (20C) , aluminum Spinner, 13 x 11 Aeronaut CF prop, MP Jet 3.5mm connectors for speed control to motor, Deans Ultra Plugs for speed control to battery pack, and all connectors and hardware. This system will put out 100 amps with a prop speed of 60 mph and a 6500 ft/ min climb out at 90 degrees. This is very hot, very fast and only for the most experienced pilots! Flying weight is 55 ounces! "

The recommendation I have to say is to reinforce the stock mount. There's only a 1/8 inch plywood engine mount. I recommend beefing that up.

http://www.nesail.com/detail.php?productID=1437

Paul

bipeaddict

avi8er ,

I am currently flying a NE sailplane Flash E - 2 meter. It is a warmliner/Hotliner/F5B. The airplane was originally designed for slope soaring.

I run mine at 600 watts with a 10 cell setup up. It will give me the nice vertical and it does 100 mph + power off dives. The sound of shredding air is incredible.

It will also glide/thermal. It does this because the plane has flaps and ailerons that span the entire wing. I am able to program the radio so that flaps and ailerons move down together. This changes the airfoil of the wing (camber) and provides high lift and slow speed.

I get a real kick out of taking it to the field. Everytime I go there is somebody who has never seen something like this. They say nice glider and are thinking ... boring. These are all gas/nitro power guys.

I launch and pull it straight up. I hear gasps. I wing over and come screaming by the flightline. And the oohhs and ahhh's start. All I can do is smile.

gaspasser

My Feedback: (9)

My 1st " Hot Liner " is a Filip 400 from N.e. sailplanes . I run a Jeti Phazor 15/3 direct ,a 30 amp speed contol turns an 8/5 folding prop . I am using a 3S1p T.P.2100 pack
The performance is mind bogling Straight up to 1000 feet in approx. 2 seconds and then glide all day until you reach the ground ,motor on and start again . I've been into large scale electric areobatics , hoovering rolling circles , etc. This is more fun . It's all I play with lately,RC rise.

monty.sharp

hi there guys, i have been flying my siren since october on 3s 4250 evolite e-flite power 25 outrunner swinging a 14x12 cam, amps show 65 on a fresh charge which equates to around 650w, i have had my worrys but she takes it all but realistically i dont call it a hotliner as it wont take the wieght needed for proper erf (energy retaining flight) its more of a sporty glider, just waiting for my fvk kamelot and then were in business, i do consider the siren to be a great entry to hotter things and for the price i cant curse it at all (till the wingtips fold up!!) keep up the good work guys i love this community thing!

evan-RCU

Parkflier/ hotliner.... now there's a difference. And you have a problem with people calling a Siren a hotliner...

jreece

My Feedback: (58)

Good discussion on the hotliners. I have a question about motor setup. I am new to electrics and am looking to get the GP siren. Will I have trouble using a FAAST system because of the CF Fuse? Will a Multiplex BL-480/4G with a 4:4-1 geardrive work well? Thanks

OzMo

My Feedback: (3)

Aren't "hotliners " those ceramic discs you heat up to put under the dinner rolls to keep 'em warm?
Keep it light, life is short[8D]

seasquared

My Feedback: (1)

Sounds like your sitting on a Nail... Chill out.

Seasquared