Rick K

My Feedback: (6)

Well Guys, just went through that annual ritual of renewing our automobile insurance and again was dismayed to have to pay darn near equaly for both our 01' $33K Dodge Grand Caravan and our now 40 Yr. old 64 1/2 Mustang which is worth around $6K in todays market because that it's still considered an 'high-performance' automobile and my wife is under 35 among other things . . . including color of the cars (forest green van= good, turquose blue Mustang=fair)

Which leads me to the subject of this post . . . Why the heck to us who fly slow moving, light weight non-powered aircraft have to pay equal rates for membership/insurance as those who fly Giant scale patteren for instance, planes that at a minimum weight that's ten or more times greater at speeds well over ten times faster that includes a 2-5 hp powered equivalent of an unshielded brush cutter leading the way flown in such a manner and in such proximity to bystanders that any one error in piloting or mechanical failure could easily, almost instantly lead to VERY serious injury or death and or property damage. In just about every accident Iv'e ever heard of invloving powered model vs. people, be it the pilot, fellow modeler, bystander or property the results were of a severe nature . . . where as in the case of sailplanes I've NEVER heard of any accident invloving injury and the worst property damage heard was of a dented hood and cracked windshield of a parked car in the parking lot. (the windshield crack was debated, looked old)

Perhaps I'm off base or just don't get it, a year (again car insurance time) ago when talking to a local AMA guy all I got was the line about the virtures of spreading the risk and group coverage and the other 'wonderful' benifits of being a member . . . well that must indeed sound good to the patteren guy who gets the benifit of my subsidizing his manifestly higher risk at my expensise. Somehow is doesn't seem so wonderful on my end of the stick.

People who chose to drive 'hot' cars or very expensive cars expect to pay higher car insurance rates on average while those who drive more 'conservertive' types expect to pay considerably lessor amount. Of course knowing the AMA they might agree with me . . . and double, maybe triple the pattern and jet guys premium (whops! MEMBERSHIP dues) while keeping our rates (sorry, DUES,(keeps it non-profit, tax exempt ya know. . . not like a insurance brokerage. . .) the same!!!

Too bad LSF or some other organization isn't a bigger thing in our branch of the sport/hobby. If so I'd bet we could perhaps get coverage at a rate appropriate to the level of risk we pose. Well what do you guys think, do I have a reasonable gripe?

Rick K
LSF 6493

SoCal GliderGuider

Lot's more cars than toy airplane flyers. AMA has about 150,000 members last count. If you read the Crash section here and on the other forum you will get the shivers as to the magnatude of the acidents the large fuel powerd planes create. Was a thread about a bystander getting hit from the side and most of the plane still in him when the medics carted him off. Big lawsuit there! Took AMA over a 1 1/2 years to pay. Critical to many power clubs is the site insurance. Since most of the AMA membership are slimmer guiders I guess we sailplanes get to support their hazzardus activites. Personally I refuse to do so and carry a larger personal liability insurance policy with my home owners.

slopemeno

My Feedback: (2)

From what I understand the expenses to classify the type of flying you do would outweigh the savings: the slimers may pay more, but you would probably not pay less. Have you followed some of the dynamic soaring thats been going on lately? What about the Fermin planes? How about a 1/3 scale sailplane? Theres risk in everything. Those slimers keep the hobby shops open and keep the prices down on accessories since they consume so much of it. For the record I only fly sailplanes, but I have a Pilot Tiger Moth I am nearly finished with.

e-sailpilot86

Besides, you don't want to join a new club after moving, and be called a second-class ama member, do you? The Tiered system is a big mistake IMHO.

rogerflies

My Feedback: (3)

With automobiles, the insurance written on the car with the rate determined by the company's experience with that type car and partially by the owner's driving record. With AMA, the insurance is written on the flyer, period. There very few members who fly only sailplanes, and it would be very diffficult to get people to give honest info on their flying habits if the rates were different for different classifications. It would be too expensive to keep up with.

e-sailpilot86 wrote:

"Besides, you don't want to join a new club after moving, and be called a second-class ama member, do you? The Tiered system is a big mistake IMHO."

What do you mean? Why would moving make a difference if you didn't let your AMA membership lapse? I didn't know there was a tiered system.

Roger

rscarawa

I agree.

I also think that there is no reason to complicate the AMA membership process for insurance that costs $64/yr. And what if you get a different plane? Should you be obligated to call AMA and inform them of this? If AMA had tiered membership like that, then clubs would have to check each persons insurance to make sure they are covered for the type of plane they are flying and that is not going to happen. Clubs want the process as simple as possible, either you are insured or you are not. Also, you could further complicate the underwriting process by asking where you will be flying, what is near by, how many spectators are in the area, and so on. If they did that, you could count on people being dishonest.

If we payed $800/yr, then I think it would be worth having different insurance rates, just not at $64/yr.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

Hate to break it to you, but your actually paying less than $15 for the insurance part of your membership. Hard to pro-rate that based on your planes. The rest of what you pay goes to BS such as the Muncie flying site, the museum, the ama owned trade shows, employees, office space and what ever else they decide to spend it on. If you go to the ama forum, there are lists there breaking down your dues. It would be hard for them to do it any other way. If they charged just for the insurance, and made all the other costs voluntary, we wouldn't have the Muncie field or any of the other AMA owned stuff, because noone would pay for it.

Personally, I think it is a huge waste of our money to own all the stuff in Muncie, but that is just one guys opinion. Fortunately for the guys running AMA, most members are not vocal and don't vote, so they can do pretty much anything they want.

rscarawa

Are there other companies selling insurance that are acceptable for most clubs?

SoCal GliderGuider

Depending on the size of the club. If you have 50 members that don't want to belong to the AMA then pooling $50 each per year will get you $2,500 to find an insurance provider for the flying site and the users. Sevaral years ago when the SFA was around several clubs went independent of both the AMA and the SFA and found they could duplicate and improve on the site insurance for $500 per year. This included covering visiting flyers. Remember this was a several years ago. Rates never go down.

Hossfly

Hate to break it to you AGAIN, but according to the 2004 Audit Report, the first largest expense is salaries. The second largest MEMBER DUES EXPENSE is MODEL AVIATION magazine. The third is insurance.
While the actual figure recorded shows MA just below Insurance, the staff of MA is included in Salaries and NOT accounted under the magazine expense. Perfectly legal but IMO, very misleading. Without the mag. the staff could be reduced by about 9 bodies. That means that some 450,000 -- 500,000 yankee dollars of actual MA expense would not be there in the salaries column. Some 2 million would be released back to operations.

Check the minutes of the Apr. EC meeting. Seems to me that there were ????s about the audit report for '04.

Insurance cost problems are a myth that you have been led to believe. That is why you vote for THEM isn't it?

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

One thing you have to remember is that AMA is more than a insurance. If it was ONLY insurance, they could/would provide insurance according to what activities you are doing but then you would be restricted to those activities. If people want to be ONLY park fliers, I encourage them to pettition the insurance companies to come up with a solution outside AMA; an insurance only coverage/solution. If an industry group or standard was created we would have more solutions.

As far as the Mustang, I have a 71 ford Pantera I insure through a collector car companie for an agrred value of some where north of $30. What that means is if the car is unrepairable they buy the car. It is collector car insurance and that coverage only cost me $300 per year. You may look into the colector car coverage for your Mustang.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

You pay $0.00 for insurance.

You pay for a membership to an organization that promotes model aviation. As a benefit of membership in that organization, you get free secondary insurance and the ability to get primary coverage for owners of land your club may fly on.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

Nope, I pay the full price for the insurance and think of it that way, because I have to have it to fly on the circut and at other fields. If I didn't HAVE to have it, I would not belong. AMA is no different than EAA. They are a self serving corperation that uses education as an excuse to make a ton of money. We don't need a ten million dollar flying field to promote model aviation in the country. That promotes model aviation in Muncie and the immediate surrounding areas. Noone else in the country that doesn't fly RC even knows it is there and doesn't care.

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

Right answer...all you need to decide is do you want to be assimilated or not… If you belong to a club…any club or organization you make the same decisions. Of course you can work within to make changes…who knows maybe a tiered system may work but it will take a lot of work to even be considered much less accepted.

Do you want to spend your time effecting such a change or fly?

Myself…I am pushing away from this keyboard now.

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Because the AMA grouped people together things were done. The hobby developed. People grouped together, located fields, became clubs, interest in model aviation organized, and the whole hobby developed. It seems aerogent to go to a field secured because of the past, to fly an airplane developed because of everyone else's contributions, and say, "I don't need you, I only join because I have too". No you don't have to. You can locate your own field, start your own club, make your own rules, have your own activities. You don't have to join AMA, you don't have to join a club. In fact, the world would be in a better place if you would seek out other insurance companies to come up with other solutions; which could also give the AMA some one to compete with. Or you can sit in your easy chair and complain that the world has done nothing for you.

I pay my dues. I suport AMA, AOPA, and the groups associated with my classic cars. They provide events, generate interest, and provide a group to opose legislation or what ever comes down the pipe. I suport the groups that provide environments for me to pursue my hobbies. Quite often I find many volunteers within those groups who have given, given, and given, only to have others sit in their easy chairs and say "why should I help, their doing nothing for me" when in reality, they are why the hobby exist.

Hossfly

To Gow589, post #15:

Excellent Post., Mr. Gow589.

Clubs and members remain in AMA mostly for the insurance package. However, there is much more provided from AMA that ENSURES model aviation's survival as a sport / hobby / recreation / whatever.

The myth of "insurance only" blinds those that stick with the myth and a "what's in it fer me" mentality. Kind of like those that send a "schumer" to the U.S. Senate and in his opposition to a specific judge's appointment he slips and states " ..... she will be totally working against our socialist revolution..." Old karl m. and lenin must have smiled in their graves. [:'(]

Insurance has saved AMA's butt in the market place and the current leadership will keep it before you as a camouflage for what is currently really going on.

None is so blind as he that will not see.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

I always like the comments like your "whats in it for me" comments. Yes, AMA was a group that helped shape modeling, but if they never existed, would modeling? Yes, because many still like it and would do it without ama. If it were not for the insurance end of AMA, they would not exist as they do today. They would have very few members compared to what they have.

Kind of like EAA. It started out as a group of aviation minded people who wanted to belong to something. Then, they started buying planes and a museum. Now they are a huge, multi million dollar company with a huge number of assets. The membership owns the planes, but a very few select group get to enjoy flying them. Everyone can look at them and drool at them.

AMA is much the same. They now own a huge flying site that all pay for, anyone can come and use, but it is not realistic or practical for most of the members to use. They have a museum which is good, but again, most will never see. I am working on trying to figure out how to get a large plane to the museum now that we are donating. I will probably load it in the full scale and fly it out there myself. Its not that I am against the AMA. It just isn't to me, what it is to many of you. There are many who beat the "they are model aviation" drum.

I see them much as unions. They once had a place, but lost focus of what they were for, and now are too self centered. Have seen many unions busted and the companies now work a lot better. In the future, the unions will be needed again because the owners will get greedy and start taking advantage because they forget the past, and the unions will return.

AMA can blow their horn all they want about all they do for the hobby, but the manufacturers do as much or more for it and the hobby would survive just fine without things like the Muncie flying site. I see a huge cash drain in AMA. They keep whining about it not making enough money and needing more. They whine about increasing insurance costs. I don't buy it. They don't seem to worry at all about spending when it comes to the facilities in muncie, but then raise dues in the name of something else.

I call bull!

People tell me "you don't need AMA, join another". There have been others. I stuck with AMA because its who I belong to and don't want to switch. Others joined the other groups, but were turned away from most flying fields and all contests. If AMA were not afraid of being done away with, they would allow other insurance groups to participate in contests. They can see the writing on the wall. If they don't keep the monopoly, everyone would be members of the cheaper insurance only groups, and noone would pay ama dues. Therefore, they don't allow it, sue them out of business, and keep their monopoly.

Call it what you want, see it as you wish. You won't make a lot of us see it any differenty no matter how you try to frame it.

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

The AMA is not a monopoly. They have no say on how, what or where you fly. Of course, if you decide to join the AMA, you agree to thier safety code, which will restrict you somewhat. But the AMA forced no one to join. The largest club in my state is NOT a AMA club so the Monolopy arguments are totally bogus as far as I'm concerned.

The visiting memeber without AMA has been used before, but I've never seen a workable solution presented. Exactly how is any club supposed to verify a 1 day visiting pilot really has insurance? Clubs need to protect thier assest and need to verify coverage. The AMA makes this simple. Everyone has equal coverage... go fly. Can you image a fun fly where lawyers are reading home owners' policies to verify a pilot has liability insurance before they can fly?

As for the original topic, tiered insurance, I don't think is is necessiarly a bad idea if very limited in scope. You would almost have to enact a waver system for any type of flying at the higher insurance rates. It might work, but what a mess if taken too far. Oh... you can't fly that 1/4 scale gasser until I see your 1/4 scale waver, your small gas engine waver, your hard to see blue and white plane waver, and your over 65 waiver. Let me call this in to verify. OK, a bit sarcastic, but see the issue?

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

How could you have a tiered system for AMA when out of the dues you pay, less than $20 of it goes to insurance.

How bout this. We set up a tiered system that the rates are this way:

1. Insured member, just carries the AMA ins and the magazine: $25.00
2. Support member, AMA ins, Magazine and museum member: $40.00
3. Full Member, AMA, Magazine, Museum and flying site support: $58.00


I would be willing to bet that 75% would be in cat 1, another 10% in cat 2 and the rest in cat 3.

Live Wire

My god I spaced this out and can not believe what people read and what they understand about the AMA and insurance You do not realieze that they are a provider not an insurance CO . They are looking for big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ just like the rest of US

ira d

Flyboy you hit the nail on the head you are 100% right about the AMA.

ira d

The AMA is a monoply they tell all there clubs not to let anyone fly
that is not an AMA member, when you factor in that 98% of the
flying sites in the U.S. are AMA insured that is a monoply.

When you go to the bowling alley you can bring your own equipment
and no one will if ask for proof of insurance, if you hit someone with
your ball that will be your responsibllity if you dont compensate them
and they can prove that somehow the bowling was at fault they may
go after them also but the alley will have there own ins to cover that.

That is the way it should be at the flying site also as long as the site
has there own insurance they will be ok if someone files a claim
aganst them.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

If you go to a country club to play golf, you can bet they check to see if you are member.


No problem if the site is self insured, but since most flying sites are AMA sponsored that pretty much takes care of that...

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

How you think of it vs the reality of the situation can sometimes be a difficult concept for some. If you CHOOSE to play at AMA sponsored events or at AMA sponsored fields, then you have to play by their rules. Simple as that.

You have other options, such as buy some land of your own and fly there! But you CHOOSE to fly at an AMA location, so it is a CHOICE you made...you don't HAVE to have it.

Heck one of the biggest RC events, the former TOC, was self sponsored.

The argument of having to have it really doesn't fly. Heck, look at the popularity of park flyers! For most, having it opens up some doors and makes finding a place to fly easier and less expensive. Heck, look at the popularity of park flyers!

Just my 1 cent, that has been adjusted for inflation yet.

Off to greener threads....

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

The AMA is NOT a monolopy. Just becasue 98% of flying sites are AMA does not make it a monolopy. A monolopy requires exclusive control of the market such that the monolopy can control the market. Exclusive, yes, the AMA is the only major model aircraft group in the US. But control, no. There is nothing stopping anyone from flying without AMA membership and there is nothing stopping anyone from starting a non-AMA flying site. Just becasue a non-memeber can't fly at a AMA site does not make the AMA a monolopy. It is a PRIVATE site, which is why the bowling ally analogy is bogus.

I'll point out again that the largest RC club in my state, aprox 200 memebers, is NOT an AMA club. In addition, this club hosts some of the best events in the state, including some AMA rulebook events. Where is the control? Monolopy? Poo Ha.