Need help on 4 flap configuration
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Need help on 4 flap configuration
Wondering if anyone could direct me to some good reading material or offer any help on setting up the inboard and outboard flaps on my new 4.5 M Ventus from TopModels. The 4 flaps have me a little curious as to which way they get deployed...as a unit and/or seperately depending upon...?
I'm thinking just the inboards will be best suited for brakes and the outboards for tailoring camber during thermal searching? But then again, all in on all flaps may be a bonus too. Crow fits in there somewhere too I'm sure. I'm using a 10sx so the options are all there, but I'm still new enough to larger sailplanes to want to be sure and read allot and ask about it here. Can't find much in full scale literature explaining this configuration.
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
I'm thinking just the inboards will be best suited for brakes and the outboards for tailoring camber during thermal searching? But then again, all in on all flaps may be a bonus too. Crow fits in there somewhere too I'm sure. I'm using a 10sx so the options are all there, but I'm still new enough to larger sailplanes to want to be sure and read allot and ask about it here. Can't find much in full scale literature explaining this configuration.
Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
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RE: Need help on 4 flap configuration
Don't use crow. Unless the full size sailplane does. Spliting the faps because of the long wing does give one a chance to do some trick control movements. Would require three servos per wing and some trick transmitter programming. Need at least ten channels in the reciever to get all of the functions. Guess you could use one servo for both flaps if mounted at or close to the intersection. Drive the outboard section with a pin from the inboard section. When all else fails what do the instructions say?
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RE: Need help on 4 flap configuration
Thanks SoCal.
Yes, it makes total sense as you say to not use crow on this ship unless the full scale one does...(which incidentally, I have yet to hear of any full scale that uses crow). Maybe you know of some and that do and are being used in a scale model? My newness is probably showing but PLEASE let me know.
In my search for information on when and in what combinations the 4 flaps are deployed, (with deflection amounts etc.) I came across the full size flight and maint. manuals in .pdf over at:
http://www.mandhsoaring.com/ventus2cx.html#Ventus%202c
It sheds a little light by stating that all flaps and ailerons are coupled together when wanted and used as one full length aileron for aerobatics! But it is still vague on the brake flap/ camber flap/ aileron combinations.
It actually states for the full scale that
in the "S1" position = inboard brake flaps go up.....???
in the "0" position = all is neutral
and the "L" position = positive or down flaps.
It gives deflection amounts but doesn't state if the inboard and outboard flaps are coupled or not when deployed. Then there's the question of flaperons which "are" used, but still no clue if 2 or 4 flaps are used for this.
(and oh yes, I will be buying a 9 or 10 channel receiver today, <G>).
I believe that the configuration of these control surfaces are probably relative to personal taste and to what works well on the model, but in the interest of "modeling" I would really like to get as close to full scale operation as I can. To even have a basis for starting the wing set-up would be a real bonus!
Love to hear some more input from you or anybody that has already been down the road of full house, split flap set-up.
Ted
Yes, it makes total sense as you say to not use crow on this ship unless the full scale one does...(which incidentally, I have yet to hear of any full scale that uses crow). Maybe you know of some and that do and are being used in a scale model? My newness is probably showing but PLEASE let me know.
In my search for information on when and in what combinations the 4 flaps are deployed, (with deflection amounts etc.) I came across the full size flight and maint. manuals in .pdf over at:
http://www.mandhsoaring.com/ventus2cx.html#Ventus%202c
It sheds a little light by stating that all flaps and ailerons are coupled together when wanted and used as one full length aileron for aerobatics! But it is still vague on the brake flap/ camber flap/ aileron combinations.
It actually states for the full scale that
in the "S1" position = inboard brake flaps go up.....???
in the "0" position = all is neutral
and the "L" position = positive or down flaps.
It gives deflection amounts but doesn't state if the inboard and outboard flaps are coupled or not when deployed. Then there's the question of flaperons which "are" used, but still no clue if 2 or 4 flaps are used for this.
(and oh yes, I will be buying a 9 or 10 channel receiver today, <G>).
I believe that the configuration of these control surfaces are probably relative to personal taste and to what works well on the model, but in the interest of "modeling" I would really like to get as close to full scale operation as I can. To even have a basis for starting the wing set-up would be a real bonus!
Love to hear some more input from you or anybody that has already been down the road of full house, split flap set-up.
Ted
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RE: Need help on 4 flap configuration
...Oh and the directions are hurting when it comes to anythign to do with the flap settings....just gives aileron throw amounts
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RE: Need help on 4 flap configuration
Your choice of transmitter will determine what controls you can cross couple. I have a 9CAPS and find it will do most everything I can throw at it for a full house sailplane.
As to coupling controls:
Rudder to ailerons. Over comes some of the adverse yaw.
Flaps to ailerons : flaperons. Especially on long wings. Flaps move about half that of the ailerons. Helps in roll.
Full wing span coupling for cambering (drooping) the trailing edge to improve slower flight. No crow!!!
The inverse of above to improve cross country (distance) flying.
Flaps to elevator to improve hard turns as in pylon racing or slope soaring.
All coupling should be switchable. You don't want the flaps to move with the ailerons when landing. Or with the elevator.
As to coupling controls:
Rudder to ailerons. Over comes some of the adverse yaw.
Flaps to ailerons : flaperons. Especially on long wings. Flaps move about half that of the ailerons. Helps in roll.
Full wing span coupling for cambering (drooping) the trailing edge to improve slower flight. No crow!!!
The inverse of above to improve cross country (distance) flying.
Flaps to elevator to improve hard turns as in pylon racing or slope soaring.
All coupling should be switchable. You don't want the flaps to move with the ailerons when landing. Or with the elevator.
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RE: Need help on 4 flap configuration
why not crow? I thought the effect of the ailerons going up while the flaps went down helped to counter the ballooning effect of the flaps. Also with the ailerons going up a bit are you not adding wash-out the the wing. With the ailerons deployed down with the flaps it would seem you are asking for a major tip stall. I'm curious because I''m setting up my first full house glider and need to know. Where I fly the typical landing includes an 180 deg. turn at about 35' to hit the spot. I don't need the wing to tip stall with no room for a bail out.
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RE: Need help on 4 flap configuration
After many years of trying various crow adjustments many have come to the conclusion that you leave the ailerons alone and just use flaps with added down elevator. I don't use large amount of flaps when I'm in a tight landing patern. About 1/8" to 3/16" at the flap TE if anything.
Once the landing is lined up then I will use 90 degrees of flaps to make a short landing. This is a wing that has 25% flaps of half span. I avoid hard turning movements even with the rudder at 100% coupled to ailerons.
Extreme crow -- anything over an 1/8-3/16" of deflection -- requires a rethink of the aileron movement. This is because of adverse yaw. To roll a "crowed" sailplane you don't raise the inboard aileron; you lower the outboard aileron. Super critical if this is a flaperon (single control surface) sloper.
I think a very slight reflex (crow) of the ailerons should help on landings. Slight would be no more than 1/16".
Critical to proper flap control is a multipoint adjustment for the elevator. I could never quite get the 8UAF to do a proper coupling. The 9CAPS does exactly what I want it to do on the same sailplane. I guess the 8UAFS would have done it too. Came out a year or so after I bought the 8UAF.
Once the landing is lined up then I will use 90 degrees of flaps to make a short landing. This is a wing that has 25% flaps of half span. I avoid hard turning movements even with the rudder at 100% coupled to ailerons.
Extreme crow -- anything over an 1/8-3/16" of deflection -- requires a rethink of the aileron movement. This is because of adverse yaw. To roll a "crowed" sailplane you don't raise the inboard aileron; you lower the outboard aileron. Super critical if this is a flaperon (single control surface) sloper.
I think a very slight reflex (crow) of the ailerons should help on landings. Slight would be no more than 1/16".
Critical to proper flap control is a multipoint adjustment for the elevator. I could never quite get the 8UAF to do a proper coupling. The 9CAPS does exactly what I want it to do on the same sailplane. I guess the 8UAFS would have done it too. Came out a year or so after I bought the 8UAF.
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RE: Need help on 4 flap configuration
The statement of not using crow has to do with flying a scale plane in a scale manner. If they don't do crow on the full scale planes, then scale purests will say you should not do it on your model.
Other than that, there is no reason not to use it. I have Crow set up for my Ventus 2C. I also have flaps with elevator compensation set up as an alternate landing aid. I can use either.
Other than that, there is no reason not to use it. I have Crow set up for my Ventus 2C. I also have flaps with elevator compensation set up as an alternate landing aid. I can use either.
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RE: Need help on 4 flap configuration
Hi, Perhaps I can shed a little light on this subject. The exact best configuartion for ailerons and flaps cannot be predetermined in my experience. You would expect that a configuration that works for one glider would work for another, but in my experience it doesn't. Take my Bruno Rhim ASH26 for example. This aircraft is flown with the surfaces coupled all of the time. The flaps follow the ailerons 100%. I have 5 different flight modes. I use a lot of differential just in cruise mode along with coupled rudder always on. Then in thermal mode the whole trailing edge drops about 3mm and the diff and the rudder couple increase slightly. In speed mode its exactly the opposite. So for normal flying this is the basic configuration. For landing it is a bit more complex. Here the flaps depress to 50% of travel with the slider control centralised. The ailerons raise about 10%. Rudder coupling is set as in thermal mode, as is differential.
The slider now can increase or reduce the flap setting to take account of wind conditions, and once selected is left their throughout landing, and airbrakes are used to make adjustments to the glide path. I mentioned that the rudder is coupled all of the time. However I use a special type of mixer that reduces the amount of coupling depending on rudder position. The more rudder is used the less coupling is applied, so there is no need for a switch. Set up this way the model is a joy to fly.
So when I got my Ventus 2c I set this up in a similar way. The Ventus flew like a dog. This model had flaps, flaperons, ailerons and tiperons. After a number of flights I decoupled the flaps from the aileron control, and then reduced the aileron input into the flaperons. This was better. Now I reduced the flap input into the flaperons and removed it from the ailerons. The tiperons have 100% differential.
Now finally it began to perform. So two giders needed two entirely differnt set ups. I have found that with other gliders they are different too, so my advice therefore is to use the most flexible radio you can get and to keep your options open. Don't be afraid to experiment and take your time to get it right.
Regards,
John
The slider now can increase or reduce the flap setting to take account of wind conditions, and once selected is left their throughout landing, and airbrakes are used to make adjustments to the glide path. I mentioned that the rudder is coupled all of the time. However I use a special type of mixer that reduces the amount of coupling depending on rudder position. The more rudder is used the less coupling is applied, so there is no need for a switch. Set up this way the model is a joy to fly.
So when I got my Ventus 2c I set this up in a similar way. The Ventus flew like a dog. This model had flaps, flaperons, ailerons and tiperons. After a number of flights I decoupled the flaps from the aileron control, and then reduced the aileron input into the flaperons. This was better. Now I reduced the flap input into the flaperons and removed it from the ailerons. The tiperons have 100% differential.
Now finally it began to perform. So two giders needed two entirely differnt set ups. I have found that with other gliders they are different too, so my advice therefore is to use the most flexible radio you can get and to keep your options open. Don't be afraid to experiment and take your time to get it right.
Regards,
John
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RE: Need help on 4 flap configuration
377 people - 377 suggestions.
If you want to fly the plane - use the most usable setup !
Ailerons should raise about 25 drgrees and in board flaps up to 80 degrees down.
That is what is used on f3j - planes eventually combined with some mixed downelevator for stability.
Look into :
www.f3j.dk
www.gliders.dk
This might help you.
And do remember : We use scale ( semiscale) sailplanes because they look very beatitful in the air - and we use f3j ( and f3b )deflections for ease and to be comfortable with handling.
Kind regards,
hld - OY-9901.
If you want to fly the plane - use the most usable setup !
Ailerons should raise about 25 drgrees and in board flaps up to 80 degrees down.
That is what is used on f3j - planes eventually combined with some mixed downelevator for stability.
Look into :
www.f3j.dk
www.gliders.dk
This might help you.
And do remember : We use scale ( semiscale) sailplanes because they look very beatitful in the air - and we use f3j ( and f3b )deflections for ease and to be comfortable with handling.
Kind regards,
hld - OY-9901.