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  1. #1

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    turning a helicopter

    hi i would like to find out what the easiest way to U-turn a heli copter.



    i have tried on a sim but i normally crash. here what i did
    1) heli moving slowing forward from right to left.
    2) applyleft row and pull cyclic back ( planes flew like that )
    3) heli crash to ground.

    do i need to apply rudder? very confusing..

    i would like to do a simple flat U -turn..


    please advise before i go fly the real thing.

  2. #2

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    turning a helicopter

    Yes, you need to use the tail rotor, especially if your model is using a heading hold gyro. If you don't and only use cyclic, the heli will bank and slide downward.

  3. #3
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    turning a helicopter

    As you enter a turn you slightly lower collective (as req'ed to maintain altitude) and apply rudder and aileron and control the bank with cyclic. When you complete the turn you increase collective and use opposite ail and use your rudder to maintain a straight heading. It takes allot of practice to make SMOOTH coordinated turns.
    Paul G -
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  4. #4

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    turning a helicopter

    The last post is correct, as you slow from forward flight and go into the turn, you will lose lift so you have to add some collective. A good idea would be to get a simulator so you can practice how it "feels." I have RealFlight G2, but it's about $200 - well worth the investment in my mind.

    Hope you can figure it out!

  5. #5

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    turning a helicopter

    thanks for the input.


    i use a csm v10 and set the pitch to 2, 6, 9
    i tried to do a turn (left turn and crashed) i tried right and its much better!! is left harder to turn? i'm traing to turn as i'm sick of hovering and nobody is here to help. i very much fly alone.

    as long as i can fly around and do simple stall turns ..i'm gonna be a happy man.

    is there a book that i can buy to read on how to turn and fly a heli?



    thanks

  6. #6

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    turning a helicopter

    Check out www.heliguy.com. He's put together a very good site for a beginner (of which I am one) and has some good getting started tips including a progression so that you can start "graduating" to more and more advanced flying.
    Good luck.

    Frank

  7. #7

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    turning a helicopter

    It appears Furyflyer decided to delete all the correct information in the post to protect his still very wrong advice. I guess he doesnt want people to see his very major mistake
    Furyflyer2
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    (post # 3)

    As you enter a turn you slightly lower collective (this is as req'ed to maintain altitude) and apply rudder and aileron and control the bank with cyclic. When you complete the turn you increase collective and use opposite ail and use your rudder to maintain a straight heading. It takes allot of practice to make SMOOTH coordinated turns.


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    Last edited by Furyflyer2 on 04-25-2003 at 3:34 PM
    Reason for edit: have to spell out everythng so I don't get bashed for not exsplaining very singe situation
    Proper way to turn a helicopter With pictures for the reading impaired.

    Turns are made in a helicopter, as in an airplane, by banking. In forward flight, the rotor disc is tilted forward which also tilts the total lift-thrust force of the rotor disc forward. This total force is the resultant of a vertical component, lift, and a horizontal component, thrust, acting forward. When the helicopter is placed in a bank, the rotor disc is tilted sideward. This causes the lift component to be tilted sideward, which in turn, is divided into two components--one acting vertically that opposes weight, the other acting horizontally to the side and opposes centrifugal force (fig. 24). It is this horizontal component of lift that pulls the helicopter in the direction of bank and thus causes it to turn. Briefly then, we can say that a turn is produced by banking the helicopter, thus allowing the lift of the rotor disc to pull the helicopter from its straight course.

    As the angle of bank increases, the total lift force is tilted more toward the horizontal, thus causing the rate of turn to increase because more lift is acting horizontally. Since the resultant lifting force acts more horizontally, the effect of lift acting vertically (vertical component) is decreased (fig. 25). To compensate for this decreased vertical lift, the angle of attack of the rotor blades must be increased in order to maintain altitude. The steeper the angle of bank, the greater the angle of attack of the rotor blades required to maintain altitude. Thus, with an increase in bank and a greater angle of attack, the resultant lifting force will be increased and the rate of turn will be faster.
    From http://www.geocities.com/flyingmouse1/Chapter_3.html

    In simple terms.

    When you enter the turn you need to increase the angel of attack on the blades to compensate for the loss of vertical lift. In other words you add collective. when you roll out of the turn you need to reduce the angle of attack on the blades to the same angle as before the turn so one doesn't climb after the turn is complete. In simple terms lower the collective

    I'm not even going to touch the edit remark.

  8. #8

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    turning a helicopter

    Being a newbie/hoverpuss I very much appreciate scum busters photographic post. Please do not remove it/ban him for pointing out the mistakes in the moderators post....that would be childish. Take it like a man and let this positive information help me and my fellow hoverpuss's

  9. #9
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    turning a helicopter

    Originally posted by jugger18
    Being a newbie/hoverpuss I very much appreciate scum busters photographic post. Please do not remove it/ban him for pointing out the mistakes in the moderators post....that would be childish. Take it like a man and let this positive information help me and my fellow hoverpuss's
    Their are no mistakes in my post what so every, if you read it carefully you will see I have stated facts. I fly allot and know what I am talking about. Turning a helicopter is not a simple this works in all situations, their is wind, heli type, rotor disk and flying speed to consider. Their is basic techniques, but it comes down to flying and learning to fly and all that goes into it. The act of flying out weights what a person or persons describe it as being.

    Here somthing to consider-
    Translational lift.- Translational lift is that additional lift obtained when entering horizontal flight, due to the increased efficiency of the rotor system. The rotor system produces more lift in forward flight because the higher inflow velocity supplies the rotor disc with a greater mass of air per unit time upon which to work than it receives while hovering. Translational lift is present with any horizontal movement although the increase will not be noticeable until airspeed reaches approximately 15 miles per hour. The additional lift available at this speed is referred to as "effective translational lift" and is easily recognized in actual flight by the increased performance of the helicopter.
    Since translational lift depends upon airspeed rather than groundspeed, the helicopter does not have to be in horizontal flight to be affected. Translational lift will be present during hovering flight in a wind--the amount being proportional to the wind velocity--and effective translational lift will be present when hovering in winds of 15 MPH or more
    Paul G -
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  10. #10

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    turning a helicopter

    ok... those are some really pretty pictures... but as furyflyer posted correctly the theory works only in a perfect world, there is much more to consider, like wind, flex, speed, dumb thumbs and more...
    so when i turn, i sometimes add some pitch and sometimes i decrease it, depending on the speed, the radius etc...
    but pulling cyclic back ... ? do you mean pitch or - well - cyclic... which would be up... that would make it a U-turn...
    so if you are more specific on how you turn, we probably can help better and scum and fury can stop doing their childish stuff...
    even better record it on realflight and send it to one of use...
    Please be safe and have fun!

    Dietmar

  11. #11
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    turning a helicopter

    Originally posted by flmgrip
    we probably can help better and scum and fury can stop doing their childish stuff...
    even better record it on realflight and send it to one of use...
    I agree, I sign my posts, but Steward won't sign his, he just calls himself scum buster, I guess he does'nt want people to know who he is.
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  12. #12
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    turning a helicopter

    I think the confusion came about from:- reduce collective to maintain altitude...

    Maintain may have been misinterpreted as keep it up, rather than stop it climbing...

    I may be wrong..



    EDIT: PS I refrained from getting into a discussion about centrifugal force and the fact it doesnt exist, only removal of centripetal force to allow an object to continue on its original trajectory.

    It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire..

  13. #13

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    turning a helicopter

    Originally posted by fuse01
    ....
    as long as i can fly around and do simple stall turns ..i'm gonna be a happy man...
    stall turn:
    have a decent forward flight speed (not to slow)
    pull collective back (until heli goes straight up)
    at the same time start reducing pitch to 0 degrees (depending on the wind it might be plus or minus to have a nice straight climb)
    when heli stops in the air, do a half piro with the tail, so that the nose points down
    at your leisure (and before you hit the ground, or even better, at the same level you started the turn), pull collective back until you are in a straight and level forward flight and increase pitch at the same time...
    everyone is talking about turning, but you want to do a stall turn... so there it is
    Please be safe and have fun!

    Dietmar

  14. #14

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    turning a helicopter

    Still haven't gotten rid of me Paul. You tried to get the last word by banning my account and deleting the posts but that wont work. To many proxies out there for you to ban.

    My original post is still the correct answer. I have not figured out why you went into a rant on transitional lift as that has absolutely nothing to do with turning a helicopter while in forward flight.

    Aerodynamics does not change because of the size of the aircraft. The only reason to reduce collective during a turn would be from the over use of aft cyclic during the turn. In effect increasing the angle of attack and providing more lift. Problem with doing that is you are now exchanging airspeed for altitude or in the case of the turn airspeed for maintaining altitude. Not what you want for a smooth level flight turn.

    By the way flmgrip if one was to follow your advice to the letter one will drill there helicopter into the ground very quickly. It should read like this for a stall turn

    One enters if from level forward flight with a aft pull on the cyclic till the helicopter is vertical a reduction of the collective is then made to 0 degrees for a calm wind condition or to the needed positive or negative collective to hold the vertical line while in windy conditions. As the helicopter comes to a stop on the up line the helicopter is then piro'd left or right 180 degrees and returns down the same down line with an aft cyclic pull for the recovery and the correct amount of collective added to maintain level forward flight.

  15. #15

    making the collective pitch part easier to understand

    When a heli is flying in forward flight part of the energy is used to keep moving forward and part to keep altitude.

    For argument's sake let's say 20% is used to keep forward flight and 80% to keep altitude.

    Just to show the effects of increasing the main rotor's angle lets analyze increasing forward speed:
    To increase the forward speed the angle of the blades will have to be more pronounced and so the % ratio of the force that's used for forward flight is increased and as a consequence the one for lift is decreased. This makes more of the same energy be used to increase forward speed and less to keep the heli's altitude. Looking at this it's obvious that if you don't add collective pitch the heli will lose altitude and ultimately go down into the ground.

    So let's say you're flying and 20% is forward trust and 80% is vertical trust.

    1) Case 1 stopping for the turn (180 degree turn on the same spot):
    If you stop and don't reduce collective that extra 20% will become lift force and will be added to the 80% that was being used to keep the heli's altitude making you gain more altitude. So if you stop completely and turn by means of a 180 degree pirouette you obviously need to reduce collective at the time of the stop but that's not the way most people turn or the U-turn he was referring to.

    2) Case 2 turning while flying (U turn):
    If while in forward flight you bank to one side without reducing speed you're increasing the angle even more the same way you would do when increasing forward speed in the above explanation so even more lift is required to prevent the heli from falling. Now you need the same force you needed before to prevent the heli from falling, the same force you needed before to keep the forward speed and a new additional force too (centripetal force) to make the heli describe a circular turn. That's why when you turn while keeping the same speed you need to increase collective to prevent the heli from becoming a lawn dart.

    Augusto.

  16. #16

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    turning a helicopter

    Originally posted by S B is back
    ....
    One enters if from level forward flight with a aft pull on the cyclic till the helicopter is vertical a reduction of the collective is then made to 0 degrees for a calm wind condition or to the needed positive or negative collective to hold the vertical line while in windy conditions. As the helicopter comes to a stop on the up line the helicopter is then piro'd left or right 180 degrees and returns down the same down line with an aft cyclic pull for the recovery and the correct amount of collective added to maintain level forward flight.
    that's exactly what i was describing as well, i just used words anyone can understand... you just have to bombard everyone and proof them right... even if they are wrong... go knock yourself out

    Originally posted by S B is back
    .... I a guy who on an average year burn 60 to 80 gallons a year. In the last month and a half I have burned 6 cases of fuel along with hitting a few Fun Flys . Not to mention I am a Featured Pilot at the up coming Detroit funfly. On an average year I do approximately 10 non local fun fly's I rep for 3 different manufactures Heli, Blades, and Fuel. I've taught more than a few people how to properly fly and I do it free of charge.
    now, unless you reveal your name (and even then), this entire statement is just useless... - my name is curtis and i fly 5 hrs a day... - the beauty of the Internet if anyone is just using the Internet for information of any kind (especially all those BB) then god help em, find some NICE locals, not ARROGANT and you will have plenty of fun...
    Please be safe and have fun!

    Dietmar

  17. #17
    =XGC= OzZ's Avatar
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    Oh boy.

    Steward I do not understand something.
    You hate RCU the mods, but you beg Marc in a email and a long one at that , to bring you back on why?

    If you hate RCU why do you come?

    Your statement above I tried.
    Guess what happen?
    The heli climbed!!!
    Then I tried it the way FuryFlyer and Flimgrip stated and guess what?
    NICE EVEN LINE!!!
    So again, why do you come here?

    You have you own little board that gets 2 post every 50 days :stupid: Why not stay there?
    Why? Because you just love Paul and NJ, and you just want to be here and you want Paul in some manly way….
    So If you can't be nice go to another board. Be that way there just nasty not nice so on so forth.
    The reason why RCU has so many members is because people have a hobby they love , and people who tar it down don't last here to long. That’s why the board your at only has 300 something and has so many posts.
    So do use all a favor and go.
    I understand you have issues and need to feel better about yourself and want to fit in, but don't you think there are better ways to do it?
    Ron C
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    Disclamer : This is my opinion, my opinion only!!!


  18. #18

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    turning a helicopter

    Ron

    I don't hate the mods over here never have. Your flying skills by marc's own description are well not that good. So its not surprising you don't know how to execute proper technique. By the way outlawheli.net is not my forum. Nor do I visit it much. Now I will visit any board I wish at any time I wish. I have also never begged to have my privileges restored I did ask why I was banned and why posts with the correct information was removed. Now the posts are back.
    Its obvious that someone's ego is getting hurt here and thus the deletions and the attack by his toadie. The truth and correct information was posted if in doubt grab a dictionary and a text book and re read augustos posts Its obvious that his post went way over your head. And that's not to hard to believe.

    Have a nice day ron

  19. #19
    =XGC= OzZ's Avatar
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    Ummm ok.

    Originally posted by S B is back
    Ron

    I don't hate the mods over here never have. Your flying skills by marc's own description are well not that good. So its not surprising you don't know how to execute proper technique. By the way outlawheli.net is not my forum. Nor do I visit it much. Now I will visit any board I wish at any time I wish. I have also never begged to have my privileges restored I did ask why I was banned and why posts with the correct information was removed. Now the posts are back.
    Its obvious that someone's ego is getting hurt here and thus the deletions and the attack by his toadie. The truth and correct information was posted if in doubt grab a dictionary and a text book and re read augustos posts Its obvious that his post went way over your head. And that's not to hard to believe.

    Have a nice day ron
    Yes in no way am I saying I am a killer pilot by any means.
    Never had ever said I was.
    But I did try what you said and yes it did what it said...
    I do not fly my machines to be the greatest 3d pilot out there.
    I fly why, because it is fun, I like hanging out with my friends.
    The hobby is for fun to relax and chill.
    Not to have debates because some people do not like each other..
    But again steward , they way you come off , you ask for a replay the same. So word, talk the way you would like to be talked to back...
    get the point and yes you did email Marc and asked to be let back on this site,...
    Ron C
    New Jersey USA
    Disclamer : This is my opinion, my opinion only!!!


  20. #20

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    turning a helicopter

    Originally posted by S B is back
    .... Now FlmGrp
    When im back out in la this summer I want to see your preform the stall turn exactly as you discribed
    ....
    at least i am man enough to admit that i am wrong. after i took all four of my helis out and crashed every single on of them, i realized that i meant to say cyclic not collective...
    that makes us all human...
    but that doesn't change the rest of the statements about turning or stall turning... as stated by ZG77_OzZ as well... it works !
    now feel free to let me know when you are out this summer (i doubt you will) and we can meet, though normally i try to surround myself with nice and friendly people and not arrogant and know-it-all folks... but then you might be nice in person and you just don't know how to write and make a point without insulting and showing arrogance... so let me know when you are out here in the sunny CA and we'll get together for some beer and fun-flying...
    also i think this thread might as well be closed soon, since it got nothing to do with the original questions any more. and the only thing proofen is, that there is more than one way to do things and fly helis and everything else...
    have fun and a good day, i am done with this thread...
    Please be safe and have fun!

    Dietmar

  21. #21

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    turning a helicopter

    Just my opinion but all this bickering certainly is not fun, nor informative. I realize that nobody, myself included, likes to have their skills or command of the language attacked, so I do understand the personal angst involoved in everyone's passionate comebacks. But, its confusing all us new guys, we don't have enough knowledge to know who is right, and thus we can't learn anything from all this. I like furyflier2's responses and saw his vids, the guy seems to be honest, sincere and not a braggart about his skills, I hate to see him waste his time responding to personal attacks from people banned from the forum who are obviously coming back to cause trouble and controversy. If you like to fight, go to Iraq, you can then trade stories with their information minister he is full of bs's too, and at least had the honor to commit suicide. Keep posting the good stuff Furyflier2, ignore that guy, he drags you down!

  22. #22
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    turning a helicopter

    Originally posted by HeliNY
    I like furyflier2's responses and saw his vids, the guy seems to be honest, sincere and not a braggart about his skills, I hate to see him waste his time responding to personal attacks from people banned from the forum who are obviously coming back to cause trouble and controversy. If you like to fight, go to Iraq, you can then trade stories with their information minister he is full of bs's too, and at least had the honoe to commit suicide. Keep posting the good stuff Furyflier2, ignore that guy, he drags you down!

    Thank you for your kind words, I don't now why I let myself get caught up in this garbage. But thank you for the point of any of this, which is to share and help one another in this great hobby!
    Paul G -
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  23. #23

    turning a helicopter

    ZG77_OzZ posted:
    Steward
    Your statement above I tried.
    Guess what happen?
    The heli climbed!!!
    Then I tried it the way FuryFlyer and Flimgrip stated and guess what?
    NICE EVEN LINE!!!
    Ron,

    That's a very common and typical perception of most people that come from flying airplanes and turns helis the same way a plane is turned.

    What you're doing without realizing is subtracting energy from the forward speed by pulling up elevator a little and then using it for turning by banking the heli to the side. That's why it doesn't fall. You will notice though that at the end of the turn you have to level the aileron and increase again the forward angle or you will climb if you leave it at the same forward angle.

    That's also indicative of the fact that by using some of the energy of the forward motion to turn your effective forward speed was decreased during the turn and thus the need to apply forward angle and additional trusth at the end.

    Experienced FAI judges can tell when a turn's speed was not held constant by looking at those details I just mentioned.

    If you turn by banking while adding pitch and driving the tail then unbanking while decreasing pitch your turn will have the same entry and exit speed. Those are the real pretty competition helicopter turns most people describe as "smooth".

    Augusto.

  24. #24
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    turning a helicopter

    Augusto- you're correct, however I don't think that method works in all situation, I find that if I fly a tight banked turn I do applied allot of collective in order to control the tightness of the turn, however when flying slow forward flight, I tend to slightly reduce the collective so as to not balloon in the turn. I don't think that will turn my 1,800 heli into a lawn dart. This is all relative to the forward momentum of flight. I don't think a blanket explanation cover all of the flight envelope of a R/C helicopter.
    Paul G -
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  25. #25
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    turning a helicopter

    This one has run its course....I'm closing it. If you guys can't discuss topics rather than attack each other I'll close them down one by one. Just because one person or another believes something to be one way or the other doesn't mean you can attack them for it. Simply agree to disagree and be done with it. Say your peace and move on. Why argue over it?


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