rbort

My Feedback: (4)

So here I am practicing inverted hovering 3 feet off the deck with my gasser and all of a sudden the engine hickups. Without thinking I initiated a climbout and about a second later the engine was dead about 8 feet high. I pulled aft cyclic and came around to upright as quick as I could, and, with no rotor speed left I ended up making an upright crash landing on the canopy (nose was down and I didn't have a chance or couldn't raise it - no time or rotor rpms) shoving the thing back into the mechanics and damaging it. The heli also blade struck the ground a couple of slices and landed on its side after the impact.

Post crash damage revealed a slightly bent main shaft and cracked main blades that needed to be replaced. Also, the canopy was damaged cosmetically (cracked and chipped), but it can be repaired with bondo and repainted to as good as new given the time and effort. A couple of bent cyclic links (from canopy ramming into them) were straightened, and two small cracks in the plastic radio tray were glued with CA. That's about it for damage from this one.

Turns out the screw that holds the coil to the rear engine supporting plate sheared in flight, and in essense the engine lost spark and quit. I knew there was some explanation, as gassers never quit unless there is a reason (other previous quits were gas line came out of tank and throttle arm sheared in 1/2 - sounds like alot, but don't worry, this is in 812 flights worth). Anyway, for all you gasser flyers out there, a word to the wise - take a piece of wire, wrap it around the coil ground tab, and hold the other end of the wire under the second support plate screw on that side of the heli. This way you will have two engine grounds, and, if the coil screw should shear, the engine will continue to run (test it to make sure it works with no coil screw installed - I did!)

SO, I'm wondering if I did the right thing. I mean, there was an airplane pilot on the field and he thought oh oh when the engine highuped and oh **** when it quit, but, he said I did really well under the circumstances and he couldn't see how I could have made out any better - he thought it would have been worse.

BUT, I've read some posts in the past that said if the engine quits while inverted at low altitude, just land inverted and you can usually pickup the heli and go fly again with little or no damage. Is that true?

What do you guys think? My first instinct was to right it and land on the gear, but, I'm still wondering if I would have been better off landing inverted - probably no canopy damage, but, would the heli tip over and boom strike, or would the blades and flybar survive?

What's your vote in this situation?

-=>Raja.

AugerRCU

My Feedback: (2)

Hi,

So far I'm 50/50. First time was at 10 ft inverted, engine quit. Used up the headspeed and touched down. The flybar was bent some, funny thing was the heli never fell over This was in grass.

Second one was at 40ft or more, figured there was enough room to roll back to uprite. I'd done 20ft half roll autos the same day so this should'nt be a problem, couple mistakes (it was piroetting and the brain did'nt catch it) and it was a knife edge landing that cost me way too much money to fix.

In the future I will land it upside down

z11355

Probably wouldn't have happened
w/ a GLOW machine.

vort3x

My Feedback: (68)

Well, if the engine quits while you're inverted, really low, there is not much to do to save it. Try to get the blades slowed as much as possible, and don't try flipping over if you're really low. Bleeding most of the energy out of the blades will do more to minimize damage than "landing" inverted. Stand back and hope someone catches it on video!

manilaheli

From personal experience I've seen a X-Cell 30 flame-out while in a low inverted hover, the flyer just put as much negative pitch he could and bled the rotor speed, it hit the ground and flopped to it's side, blades were broken, but it flew the same day after another flyer gave him another set to try.

Another instance was a Freya having an inverted flameout 8 feet off the deck, since this guy was really good, he did full negative pitch with forward elevator and the heli landed on it's skids just as the rotor speed totally died.

As for myself, I didn't have a flameout, but I was trying out my RG on inverted hover when to my horror, the flight condition I was using didn't have enough negative pitch and the heli couldn't climb inverted at around 15 feet off the deck. I held my breath and applied forward elevator but keeping the pitch at around 1 degree positive to prevent the head speed sagging too much (it's only a 30 size), I managed to get lift upright at around 1 foot off the ground.

My instructor espouses landing inverted rather than saving it upright unless you're really good with the collective pitch.

Dragon2115

Wow Raja, sorry to hear about your crash.

Now what was it you were lecturing me about on taking risks with my aerobatic autos? Looks like you just got bit too there buddy.

But I'll bet you'll be back doing it again won't you? Like I've said to you before, nothing ventured, nothing gained. If we don't take risks (not safety) with them we don't learn anything.

Hope you have it back in the air soon.

rbort

My Feedback: (4)

Hey Jim:

Yeah, I fixed it that night. Like I was saying, turned out to be a mainshaft and the blades, everything else survived except for some canopy damage.

Flew it again today, inverted and 3 feet off the deck for the whole tank. This time I feel more confident of the engine since I double grounded it. My goal is to be able to fly around inverted as well as I do upright, so lets hope by the end of this year I've accomplished that!

Hope all is well with you! Thanks guys for all the input, and, as for z11355, smart comment on your part....go buy some expensive glow fuel at the hobby shop, will ya?

-=>Raja.

McKoi

My Feedback: (1)

oh RAJA

bummer dude that's three heli crashes in one day at the loopers
things do happen 3's

you know with the 100's and 100's of flights on that thing I'd consider replacing EVERY bolt on that ship , isn't that the second bolt falure resulting in a crash???????????????????????????????????????????

don't be penny wise , replace EVERY BOLT, you got x-tra cash because you burn gas right?????????




Mckoi

Ergo60

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry to hear about it, but at least the dammage was minimal. Not to get off subject, but after this weekends trip to Toledo, and seeing the glow fuel rise again in price I am going to switch to a gasser. I am a JR nut at heart, so I will more than likely stick with them, plus 95% of the parts are the same from the 60 Sport and the Z230, and I have a ton of spares.

But, I would like t hear from you on how well the gasser performs. I do not do any 3d, just mild aerobatics. My main concern s the reliability of the motor. What should I change, what should I look for, and any other tips, or web siters that may help me would be appreciated

Thanks

rbort

My Feedback: (4)

Hi Ergo:

I would highly recommend that you go to gas. Don't let that gas engine ever scare you. Yes they are different to set, but, when you first started with glow you knew nothing about them either, and before you knew it you learned how to listen to them and adjust them.

Gas helis run great, are very reliable and the engines last forever. You won't ever have to change bearings in a motor because you wore it out, they just run and run like a workhorse.

My gasser will perform 3d maneuvers with ease. I've upgraded it with a Hanson engine which is more powerful than the stock motor as well being more balanced for a smoother run. With the stock motor you can do anything you want to do it sounds like, but, with a Hanson motor you can even fly 3d. And, if you use the Hanson tuned pipe, it will probably be more powerful than glow - I don't do that as I don't need all that power - its also going to be louder and frankly I'm happy with the power I have now.

I would go for a nice quiet muffler as the #1 priority. The stock muffer (box can) is loud, and, after hours of flying it its going to start to hurt your ears. Nicer with the quieter setup, and it will keep the neighbors happy too! Besides that not sure what the Ergo line offers for upgrades - in the Excel you can pretty much fly it stock and just upgrade the muffler and motor and gear ratio if you want to do 3d, if not just stock is okay.

As usual, fly with carbon blades and not woodies, and get some nice paddles to bring your response rate up. Other than this, if you are not 3ding you won't need anything else.

Use Yamalube R2 oil at 4.5oz per gallon, and, you should be all set to go. Some people use Amsoil at less quantities than that, I haven't ventured that way so I can't advise on it. I will say I have used Yamalube for many flights, and see no illeffects from it.

Good luck and enjoy! Before you know it, you'll wonder why you didn't make the switch sooner, and next thing you know you'll be wanting to do 3d with a gasser!

-=>Raja.

Scotty740

Raja,

Mine will be here this week and I can hardly wait. What gear ratio are you running? I have a full slection coming with mine. I'll use the wood blades with it at first then get some 700mm carbon ones later once I get used to it.

rbort

My Feedback: (4)

Oh Scott you're gonna like that one indeed! Joe spec'ed it out like mine so it should be very well capable.

I use the 13 tooth gear on it so its 6.92 to 1 and I think it runs well with that. 1500 for hover, 1600 all the time, and 1700 when needed for fast stuff.

It will be a little different feel than a glow ship, but after putting 50 flights on it you won't notice any difference as you will get used to the cyclic inputs it needs and it will fly just as well as a glow ship. Its like owning a high wing plane, an Extra 300 and a biplane. They all need different inputs to fly, but you get used to each plane and fly them all well eventually.


-=>Raja.

Dragon2115

Oh man are you stepping in it now Raja.

You can't really think a 12 lb. gasser can, with currently available engines, have the power to weight ratio of a 10.5 lb. glow ship sporting a 61 or better. A gasser may be fine for mild 3D, but if you think you're going to pull off a Jason Krause type flight routine with one you're sadly mistaken. And if it could be done, I guarranty that those guys would already be doing it. The advantages would be too great to ignore, such as no smoke to speak of, only 10 oz. fuel load so less change in the CG during the flight, and smoother power with more torque. Gassers make great FAI, mild 3D, and camera ships. Hard 3D ships they're not. Sorry Raja, it ain't gonna happen.

Ergo60, I hope I'm wrong but I heard the Z230 was being discontinued. If you want one now would be the time to get one before they're gone.

Ergo60

My Feedback: (1)

Yep you are indeed wrong the Z230 is far from being discontinued, in fact when I called to place my order they commented on how high the demand has been lately.

I do not expect it to do wild 3D, and that is great since I do not do any of that. I like scale flying, and mild acrobatics, if it cal loop, split-S, barrel roll, then it is good enough for me, and I will be keeping one of my 60 sports as a backup for a while. I will post how it goes.

Scotty740

Thanks for the Info Raja.

Can't wait for it to get here. I'm sure it is different but my TSKs are more of an FIA machine and I like smooth fast flying. I fly all kinds of machines at the field as I help a lot of guys with set up and test fly their machines. They all are different.



Dragon, he said it flys like a glow not does 3D like one, unless you call that flying...

Dragon2115

Actually Scotty I was referring to his second to last post where he gives the impression that by adding the Hanson engine you'll have a fully 3D capable heli. Unfortunately that's not quite true.

Don't worry though, we go back and forth on this in person too. :boxing: Ask Raja to tell you about his "bubble" at last years fun fly. Then ask McKoi or Z11355 to give you the real story.

Dragon2115

Ergo60,

Glad to hear I was mistaken. It sounds like a gasser would be perfect for your flying style. I hope you enjoy yours very much.

Scotty740

I got ya. I'm sure it will meet my expectations just fine.

Bubble? Now that sounds interesting...

Blair

Slow the blades down as much as possible and land it on the head.

You have a better chance of surviving and with less damage believe it or not.

Blair

rbort

My Feedback: (4)

What is wrong with you here? Well, let's start here...what is your definition of 3d? What do you mean its not fully 3d capable? Well lets see...

Will it do loops...yes
Will it do rolls...yes
Will it do autorotations...yes
Will it do flying autos like a 180 degree auto...yes
Will it do a rolling auto...yes
Will it do continuous loops (tumbles)...yes
Will it do continuous rolls...yes
Will it do flips...yes
Will it do a death spiral...yes
Will it do pirouettes...yes
Will it do fff...yes
Will it fly inverted...yes
Will it fly backwards...yes
Will it do backwards loops and rolls...yes
Will it do a compibination of any of the following...yes

Did I ever say I would win a competition with it flying against glow...no!
Did I ever say I will win a tractor pull drag race against glow...no!
Did I ever say it was lighter...no!

I don't know about you Jim, but, I can do anything my little heart desires with it and it sure handles all my flying capabilities. I am no Jason Krause and I never said Jason or others like him were ever going to use it in competition. In fact, I always did say you will never win a competition with it. You need all the edge you can get in competition, and, I have never portrayed this ship as a #1 ship to compete with. Its like if you want to fly the TOC, you DONT go there with my Extra 300 or my Biplane, you need the biggest, best, lightest airplane with the top of the line servos, radio and hardware. You can't compete with others unless you are on the same plane with them - they get the best of the best, and you have to in order to have a fighting chance.

So what did I say wrong? I said it will do 3d, and it WILL, get over it if you think it can't. Sure its may be slower in reacting when compared to a lighter ship, but, who is worrying about that when time is not an issue like in a competition.

Also, yes its heavier, but you know what, the engine can certainly carry it. So you take a glow machine and you do a tumble and you move the cyclic to compensate for weight. Then, you take the gasser and do a tumble and then you move the cyclic stick MORE to compesate for the weight, but you get used to the move you need to do to make a good tumble. All of the sudden the end result is that a glow machine and a gasser look just the same while tumbling in the air given two good pilots. So can you see one is putting more pitch to carry the extra couple of pounds (dry weight, add fuel and the weight gap is narrower by 1/2 a pound since you would carry twice the fuel for 1/2 the flying time), or do you even care? I don't.

And, the best part of the end of the day is:

I go home with a clean ship, you go home with an oily mess.
I go home having flown 3 to 4 20 minutes flights and gotten my fill, you go home after putting 6 12 minute flights to get the same amount of time in the air.
I go home after consuming 24oz of gasoline, worth 50 cents at best including the oil that was in them, you go home after burning up 1/2 a gallon easy, or maybe even a whole gallon if you put in 6 12 minute flights at 2oz per minute (that consumption rate came from you, not me) - what does that cost, about $25 a gallon if you buy it in gallons without having to buy 6 cases up front to get a discount deal?

Yeah baby, you keep flying the nitro, pay the daily bill = to about $3 a flight and clean the mess when you go home, and, I'll just fly my "non 3d" machine according to you and get alot more airtime for alot less cost and hassel. I like that program, and, you like yours so we are even.

Actually, all kidding aside, if I was you I'd own a gas ship, and, use it for everything that I want to do that is not demanding. For example, when you are practicing flying inverted - you can get 25 minutes of uninterrupted hovering/slow flight to speed up your comfort level without the high cost of a nitro ship -- and you don't even have to choke on your own cloud of smoke either. Do you feel the nitro ship has an advantage hovering inverted - I dont. That's just one example, but, I understand that when you want to push the pedal to the metal, fly like Jason Kruase and do drag racing, then there is a need to pay the $3 for that flight but paying it for every flight just doesn't seem to make sense.

And you know what, I've been to the field with you, and watched you fly and you've seen me fly. I never saw you do a maneuver that I just can't possibly do with my gasser, everything you do I can do with that gasser (less autorotation aerobatics which I won't attempt as I don't like to play with fire (I got burned once), and, you've seen first hand when you fat fingered it during one of those maneuvers recently and it ended up costing you a whole new ship as that one was too destroyed to fix I guess), maybe a bit slower, but I can do it. With my flying style, I enjoy that gasser like there is no tomorrow and I don't see ANY reason to use glow.

I KNOW you love glow machines, so fly them if you don't mind the tab, the mess, and the support equipment to get them going on the field. Just don't go saying I can't do 3d with my machine, I can, and you know it. If its "hard 3d" you are talking about, well, I'm no Jason Krause and I probably never will be, but I am certainly happy to be Raja and to fly as well as I do all day long for less than a buck.

-=>Raja.

McKoi

My Feedback: (1)

Hey Raja,
Yes your Highly MODIFIED gasser can do 3d , but not aggressive 3d.

The problem here is you neglected to tell these perspective gasser buyers that your gasser is not a box stock MA kit it has a Hanson modified motor that puts out reasonable HP for additional $$$$, and to take advantage of the extra pony's this excellent hanson motor puts out(I know I own one ) you have to get the BERGAN clutch bell and pinoin setup at a addition cost of $$$$$$$$$$

the box stock gasser is dog for 3d,
I know I use to own one .

my 2 cents


Mckoi

rbort

My Feedback: (4)

Hey Jeremy:

Don't be silly...You didn't read any of the posts. GO BACK and read them and you will see that I SAY that I upgraded my engine to the hanson motor and "with the Hanson motor you can even fly 3d", and I do say I use a 13 tooth gear setup in a second post. Even my signature states my configuration of my heli.

And, I also said that if I got the hanson tuned muffler it will also be alot stronger than it currently is, you know it and I know it as you have one yourself and your ship with that hanson motor and tuned pipe is a rocket ship, and I would venture to say it flies as fast and is as powerful as your glow ship from what I remember when I last saw you fly it.

And by the way Mckoi, dont start pulling that highly upgraded crap on me. You are "highly upgrading" your ships by changing the motor to a YS80 or OS91 and changing your gear train to handle it, so thats some $$$s there as well not to mention bumping the flight costs up to $4 a flight instead of $3 with the thirstier 2 strokes.

And for your comfort, my gasser will in no way compete with your 80 or 91 equipped 60 machine, but I never said it was supposed to. All I said is that it can fly 3d and it performs as well as a 60 size ship for alot less per flight. I'm happy with the power I have now, and, if I wanted more I can always get the Hanson pipe to increase the power, but you know what, I don't NEED it, it has enough power as is for me.

-=>Raja.

mogles

My Feedback: (7)

No way now how you go home with a clean machine. Perhaps clean but smelly as s$^$. I sold my gasser mainly because my flying skills have improved and got board doing slow mo loops and rolls but also because the smell of gasoline.

McKoi

My Feedback: (1)

hey Raja,
the point is that the box stock MA gasser is a DOG for 3d'in.
it is a true sport type flyer.....just make it clear to these unsuspecting buyers that you need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to make it 3d worthy

that's my point!!!!

nothing wrong with highly upgrade crap!!!I just ordered a second 80 for my Nova, now I have a 80 futura se a Nova 80 and a futura SE with a hanson gas whhhoooahhhh I love the smell of Nitro in the morning , I don't care if it cost me a extra few 100 a year fuel cost, I love the power!!!!! you only live once, smell the roses now baby!!!!

yes my hanson Rox in my Futura SE and guess what I dusted it off last night after not flying for a season. I 'm going to start it up as soon as my radio comes back from JR which should be here next week. yeeeehaaaaaa.
cya at the field....

z11355

You can burn Coleman white gas and eliminate the odor.