C-ARF Ultra Flash build Thread + Video
#5476
My Feedback: (39)
If it bounces its simply landing too fast. I see hundreds of UF landings and grass or hard surface if you don't slow it enough it can bounce. The UF is a 'hold off' aeroplane, some designs have to be flown onto the gound, the UF lands at walking pace, calm or windy and needs holding off till its ready to land. Just practice slowing it down, it has small inlets, so minimal natural drag, maximum flap is needed! Less flap is just getting into lift again and does not help DW
Dave, thank you for your help and insight, but to be honest, I cannot hear it anymore. We all know that you have a lot of experience with these planes, but in all your postings you tend you accept only one truth: and that would be yours! I am a competent & experienced pilot and fly rolling circles with my jets, but this plane made me look like an amateur who doesn't know how to land a jet. Not everybody has a 1000 feet of runway to simply flair until the plane settles on its own or needs to approach faster, because the final turn to base needs to be done close to the runway. So please do not just keep repeating that we are all too stupid to simply slow it down enough.
It is a fact that the springs of most UF landing gear manufacturers are too stiff for a proper ground handling. I had to take off almost 40% of the springs diameter to get the springs soft enough to actually filter bumps and not just bounce. My UF was even worse in the beginning and showed a vicious tendency to porpoise every landing, because the nose wheel was simply too long and therefore angle of attack wasn't right. After lowering the nose gear the plane has totally transformed and it now lands at any speed!
There is one point though I have to agree, if you are of course landing on the nose gear first or touch down with all 3 wheels at the same time, you are in for a ride!
Thomas
Last edited by bluelevel; 11-14-2016 at 10:27 AM.
#5477
My Feedback: (114)
Dave, thank you for your help and insight, but to be honest, I cannot hear it anymore. We all know that you have a lot of experience with these planes, but in all your postings you tend you accept only one truth: and that would be yours! I am a competent & experienced pilot and fly rolling circles with my jets, but this plane made me look like an amateur who doesn't know how to land a jet. Not everybody has a 1000 feet of runway to simply flair until the plane settles on its own or needs to approach faster, because the final turn to base needs to be done close to the runway. So please do not just keep repeating that we are all too stupid to simply slow it down enough.
It is a fact that the springs of most UF landing gear manufacturers are too stiff for a proper ground handling. I had to take off almost 40% of the springs diameter to get the springs soft enough to actually filter bumps and not just bounce. My UF was even worse in the beginning and showed a vicious tendency to porpoise every landing, because the nose wheel was simply too long and therefore angle of attack wasn't right. After lowering the nose gear the plane has totally transformed and it now lands at any speed!
There is one point though I have to agree, if you are of course landing on the nose gear first or touch down with all 3 wheels at the same time, you are in for a ride!
Thomas
It is a fact that the springs of most UF landing gear manufacturers are too stiff for a proper ground handling. I had to take off almost 40% of the springs diameter to get the springs soft enough to actually filter bumps and not just bounce. My UF was even worse in the beginning and showed a vicious tendency to porpoise every landing, because the nose wheel was simply too long and therefore angle of attack wasn't right. After lowering the nose gear the plane has totally transformed and it now lands at any speed!
There is one point though I have to agree, if you are of course landing on the nose gear first or touch down with all 3 wheels at the same time, you are in for a ride!
Thomas
#5478
My Feedback: (39)
@TXshan
I tried to point out that not all landing approaches are the same, because not all fields are the same. In a perfect world it all seems to easy, but unfortunately we are not flying at Kentucky jets all the time. At my home field for example you have to come in hotter, because the final turn to base has to be made close to the runway. Would I slow down too much before this turn, the risk of stalling in that turn is pretty high. So this higher speed will result in a flat approach and it is impossible to do a "fighter" type of landing with the nose up. Furthermore at my home field I also not have a lot of time to flair, because our runway is only 500 feet long. I need a plane that sticks the landing once the wheels touch the ground and with my old springs and struts that was simply not the case. As pointed out earlier, I have softened the springs and changed the height of the nosewheel and now the plane lands at any speed. So apparently the porpoising was not the pilot's fault.
I do not want to come across arrogant but as I said before, I consider myself a very accomplished aerobatic & jet pilot and I also know how to land. I was offended by the way how some people point fingers at the pilot and would never admit that the plane itself or the setup could be at fault. I know that in my case I am not using a Carf recommended gear (no Behotec or AirTech), but several other people have now come forward and said that are having the same troubles to stick the landings with exactly these brands.
Thomas
I tried to point out that not all landing approaches are the same, because not all fields are the same. In a perfect world it all seems to easy, but unfortunately we are not flying at Kentucky jets all the time. At my home field for example you have to come in hotter, because the final turn to base has to be made close to the runway. Would I slow down too much before this turn, the risk of stalling in that turn is pretty high. So this higher speed will result in a flat approach and it is impossible to do a "fighter" type of landing with the nose up. Furthermore at my home field I also not have a lot of time to flair, because our runway is only 500 feet long. I need a plane that sticks the landing once the wheels touch the ground and with my old springs and struts that was simply not the case. As pointed out earlier, I have softened the springs and changed the height of the nosewheel and now the plane lands at any speed. So apparently the porpoising was not the pilot's fault.
I do not want to come across arrogant but as I said before, I consider myself a very accomplished aerobatic & jet pilot and I also know how to land. I was offended by the way how some people point fingers at the pilot and would never admit that the plane itself or the setup could be at fault. I know that in my case I am not using a Carf recommended gear (no Behotec or AirTech), but several other people have now come forward and said that are having the same troubles to stick the landings with exactly these brands.
Thomas
#5479
My Feedback: (114)
@TXshan
I tried to point out that not all landing approaches are the same, because not all fields are the same. In a perfect world it all seems to easy, but unfortunately we are not flying at Kentucky jets all the time. At my home field for example you have to come in hotter, because the final turn to base has to be made close to the runway. Would I slow down too much before this turn, the risk of stalling in that turn is pretty high. So this higher speed will result in a flat approach and it is impossible to do a "fighter" type of landing with the nose up. Furthermore at my home field I also not have a lot of time to flair, because our runway is only 500 feet long. I need a plane that sticks the landing once the wheels touch the ground and with my old springs and struts that was simply not the case. As pointed out earlier, I have softened the springs and changed the height of the nosewheel and now the plane lands at any speed. So apparently the porpoising was not the pilot's fault.
I do not want to come across arrogant but as I said before, I consider myself a very accomplished aerobatic & jet pilot and I also know how to land. I was offended by the way how some people point fingers at the pilot and would never admit that the plane itself or the setup could be at fault. I know that in my case I am not using a Carf recommended gear (no Behotec or AirTech), but several other people have now come forward and said that are having the same troubles to stick the landings with exactly these brands.
Thomas
I tried to point out that not all landing approaches are the same, because not all fields are the same. In a perfect world it all seems to easy, but unfortunately we are not flying at Kentucky jets all the time. At my home field for example you have to come in hotter, because the final turn to base has to be made close to the runway. Would I slow down too much before this turn, the risk of stalling in that turn is pretty high. So this higher speed will result in a flat approach and it is impossible to do a "fighter" type of landing with the nose up. Furthermore at my home field I also not have a lot of time to flair, because our runway is only 500 feet long. I need a plane that sticks the landing once the wheels touch the ground and with my old springs and struts that was simply not the case. As pointed out earlier, I have softened the springs and changed the height of the nosewheel and now the plane lands at any speed. So apparently the porpoising was not the pilot's fault.
I do not want to come across arrogant but as I said before, I consider myself a very accomplished aerobatic & jet pilot and I also know how to land. I was offended by the way how some people point fingers at the pilot and would never admit that the plane itself or the setup could be at fault. I know that in my case I am not using a Carf recommended gear (no Behotec or AirTech), but several other people have now come forward and said that are having the same troubles to stick the landings with exactly these brands.
Thomas
I see. Well I'm glad you were able to find a solution to fix it.
#5480
Thread Starter
I'm not talking about my experience, I can land anything. I'm basing it on 20+ pilots I see in England regularly and we don't have 1000' runways available, even the airfields only tend to have 300' of decent surface either side of an intersection, as the runways were set in 1940! My local grass field is less than 300' and we have around 10 guys with varying experience flying UF models and they generally land fine. Yes some have the odd bounce early on, but they all get there with stock CARF gear and springs.
I'm sorry, but being able to fly rolling circuits does not mean you can read speed. Flying fast is easy, flying slow is where the skill is.
There are pilots here who don't get on with landing the UF, generally they have come from draggy jets that slow themselves, so land easy. The UF is not going to land itself, but it flies very slowly once you scrub the speed.
Bad work man blames his tools is what we say here. I'm not getting at you, but there is nothing wrong with the UF gear.
I'm sorry, but being able to fly rolling circuits does not mean you can read speed. Flying fast is easy, flying slow is where the skill is.
There are pilots here who don't get on with landing the UF, generally they have come from draggy jets that slow themselves, so land easy. The UF is not going to land itself, but it flies very slowly once you scrub the speed.
Bad work man blames his tools is what we say here. I'm not getting at you, but there is nothing wrong with the UF gear.
#5481
I'm not talking about my experience, I can land anything. I'm basing it on 20+ pilots I see in England regularly and we don't have 1000' runways available, even the airfields only tend to have 300' of decent surface either side of an intersection, as the runways were set in 1940! My local grass field is less than 300' and we have around 10 guys with varying experience flying UF models and they generally land fine. Yes some have the odd bounce early on, but they all get there with stock CARF gear and springs.
I'm sorry, but being able to fly rolling circuits does not mean you can read speed. Flying fast is easy, flying slow is where the skill is.
There are pilots here who don't get on with landing the UF, generally they have come from draggy jets that slow themselves, so land easy. The UF is not going to land itself, but it flies very slowly once you scrub the speed.
Bad work man blames his tools is what we say here. I'm not getting at you, but there is nothing wrong with the UF gear.
I'm sorry, but being able to fly rolling circuits does not mean you can read speed. Flying fast is easy, flying slow is where the skill is.
There are pilots here who don't get on with landing the UF, generally they have come from draggy jets that slow themselves, so land easy. The UF is not going to land itself, but it flies very slowly once you scrub the speed.
Bad work man blames his tools is what we say here. I'm not getting at you, but there is nothing wrong with the UF gear.
My look at the problem is simple and tested in many planes; if the spring can´t store enough energy to bring the plane back to the air it will not do it.
Normally a suspension system has an accompanying damping system to resist bouncing. Oil is usually the preferred damping media but air damping and friction alone is also seen .
Damping dissipates energy . If the system is not to be equipped with a system capable of dissipating the energy of a bad landing,better not to store it. What is the purpose of that piece of hardware if it can not meet the expectations of its name????
Of course you can try the reverse remedy by fitting stiffer springs effectively locking the suspension system and not storing anything. This is easy to achieve in that type of trailing link oleos that has a "preferred" horizontal suspension (pothole) vs vertical suspension (too hard of a descent rate at touchdown).
Anyway I prefer to hit end of stroke sometimes than having a bunny hop when the "bad work man" comes to the job(flying) site.
My way of telling if a plane is going to bounce is simply looking at the sag of the spring ,25-30% percent sag and it will not bounce.
To all ,please let´s be nice.We are just talking about our opinions ,is not necessary to fit any one in any case as this is going to propably fit ourselves in a bad one.
#5483
My Feedback: (9)
That's exactly the type of attitude that I was referring to. The CARF god has spoken and us mortals better be quiet! Doesn't matter how many people report a problem, the CARF rep still doesn't want to hear it. Oh well, that's what the ignore function is made for.
Thomas
Thomas
I have had some issues with carf reps over time , it went in one ear and out the other , they just blow you off , they got you money and see ya later
Wanted Andreas to contact me at one time ....did we hear from him ? no....not even the rep could get in contact with the owner , so that tells me something rite there ....
I done with carf and their hollyer than god attitude .....many other jet manufactures out there I can spend money with
#5485
Hi Guys,
Changing the subject a tad - if that is ok?
I've finally started with the build, and so far so good...not that I have done that much...Only the elevator servos :-) However I have been looking over pictures trying a find a solution for the elevator servo connection wires. To make fitting of the HS easy and hassle free.
What makes me nervous is having slack in the cables could result in potentially touching against the tail pipe during flight which is not what i want, plus not having any slack will make the fit of the HS a pita.
Can any of you guys post some pics of your setup? I'm keen to see what you guys have done before I attempt to re invent the wheel.
Apologies if this has been discussed before but for the life of me I could not find it.
Regards,
William Blake
Changing the subject a tad - if that is ok?
I've finally started with the build, and so far so good...not that I have done that much...Only the elevator servos :-) However I have been looking over pictures trying a find a solution for the elevator servo connection wires. To make fitting of the HS easy and hassle free.
What makes me nervous is having slack in the cables could result in potentially touching against the tail pipe during flight which is not what i want, plus not having any slack will make the fit of the HS a pita.
Can any of you guys post some pics of your setup? I'm keen to see what you guys have done before I attempt to re invent the wheel.
Apologies if this has been discussed before but for the life of me I could not find it.
Regards,
William Blake
Hey my friend. If your concerned with the elevator wires coming in contact with the outer thrust tube, 1st clip them outta the way via a keeper/clip/Velcro to the inside of the fuselage. I went above and beyond and wrapped a small piece of heat blanket around that outer thrust tube, got that at an auto parts store, and cut it to fit. I used a piece of that aluminum tape to hold it together where it meets itself around the thrust tube. It's good for 2000 degrees!!!!! refer to post 5230, where I took a picture of my solution. It's probably overkill, BUT, cheap insurance!!!
Tom
Last edited by 737Driver; 11-15-2016 at 12:07 PM.
#5486
My Feedback: (39)
Guys,
I really didn't want to turn this informative thread into a pi***ng contest, but as a paying customer I want to be taken seriously. Answers like "I can land anything" or "A bad man blames his tools" really don't improve the feeling that in fact I am a valuable customer.
Dave is right that there are hundreds of UFs out there and in an ideal world most pilots don't have problems with the landing gear, but in those less than perfect conditions like cross winds, short fields or obstacles in the flight path that make you come in hot there is definitely room for improvement. Dave admitted that with the stock gear you need to "hold off" the plane until it settles on its own, but it is not always possible to do that. After I softened the springs and shortened the nose wheel I can now land at any speed without any tendencies to bounce.
I do understand that the margins in the RC business are slim, but a little improvement here or there doesn't have to cost a lot. Car makers or cell phone companies are constantly improving their products to keep them attractive to customers for a long period of time. And they do listen to their customers' inputs and do not tell them that there's nothing wrong with their product!
Thomas
I really didn't want to turn this informative thread into a pi***ng contest, but as a paying customer I want to be taken seriously. Answers like "I can land anything" or "A bad man blames his tools" really don't improve the feeling that in fact I am a valuable customer.
Dave is right that there are hundreds of UFs out there and in an ideal world most pilots don't have problems with the landing gear, but in those less than perfect conditions like cross winds, short fields or obstacles in the flight path that make you come in hot there is definitely room for improvement. Dave admitted that with the stock gear you need to "hold off" the plane until it settles on its own, but it is not always possible to do that. After I softened the springs and shortened the nose wheel I can now land at any speed without any tendencies to bounce.
I do understand that the margins in the RC business are slim, but a little improvement here or there doesn't have to cost a lot. Car makers or cell phone companies are constantly improving their products to keep them attractive to customers for a long period of time. And they do listen to their customers' inputs and do not tell them that there's nothing wrong with their product!
Thomas
Last edited by bluelevel; 11-15-2016 at 10:22 AM.
#5489
#5491
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posts: 64
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Received 1 Like
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Hi 737Driver,
Thank you so much, yes i did see your post. I think i'm ultimately going to go with the MPX connector on this one http://www.dreamworksrc.com/catalog/...ip-Plug-Socket
Basically create one 9mm hole as per the manual for both servos and use some velcro and heat shield...still playing with it in my mind.... but I think something along those routes.
Will try post some pics once done.
Thank you so much, yes i did see your post. I think i'm ultimately going to go with the MPX connector on this one http://www.dreamworksrc.com/catalog/...ip-Plug-Socket
Basically create one 9mm hole as per the manual for both servos and use some velcro and heat shield...still playing with it in my mind.... but I think something along those routes.
Will try post some pics once done.
#5492
Hi 737Driver,
Thank you so much, yes i did see your post. I think i'm ultimately going to go with the MPX connector on this one http://www.dreamworksrc.com/catalog/...ip-Plug-Socket
Basically create one 9mm hole as per the manual for both servos and use some velcro and heat shield...still playing with it in my mind.... but I think something along those routes.
Will try post some pics once done.
Thank you so much, yes i did see your post. I think i'm ultimately going to go with the MPX connector on this one http://www.dreamworksrc.com/catalog/...ip-Plug-Socket
Basically create one 9mm hole as per the manual for both servos and use some velcro and heat shield...still playing with it in my mind.... but I think something along those routes.
Will try post some pics once done.
I would make sure you route EACH servo wire through it's respective hole in the bulkhead, meaning, don't cross 1 wire over the top/bottom of your outer thrust tube to have it meet it's other servo wire, and push BOTH wires through 1 hole in the bulkhead. What you would do in that case is run the 1 wire over the outer thrust tube, then when you put your horizontal stab on, you could crush/pinch/sandwich the wire between the horizontal stab and the thrust tube almost ensuring it WILL melt!! That did happen to a friend of mine, luckily he discovered that before going airborne, as one elevator servo failed for that very reason. I hope this isn't to confusing!!
#5494
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
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1 Post
So my build is going pretty ok so far.
-Elevators have been done
-Ailerons complete
-Tail Cone complete
-Rudder Complete
- Tail Pipe 50% complete
The next item I'm planning on doing is the NACA ducts, from what I have read they are required hence will follow what you guys have done. However
I have these carbon NACA ducts that was utilized on my heli's, it is quite a neat little feature. They are unfortunately smaller than the ones as per the manual.
Do you guys think I can go with my smaller ones?
-Elevators have been done
-Ailerons complete
-Tail Cone complete
-Rudder Complete
- Tail Pipe 50% complete
The next item I'm planning on doing is the NACA ducts, from what I have read they are required hence will follow what you guys have done. However
I have these carbon NACA ducts that was utilized on my heli's, it is quite a neat little feature. They are unfortunately smaller than the ones as per the manual.
Do you guys think I can go with my smaller ones?
#5497
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Dubai, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
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1 Post
Hi Gary,
Question, did you specifically order your electron landing gear for the Ultra flash? I had a brief discussion with our local rep her and apparently the UF combo from electron is designed around the models weight. It was also mentioned that should the springs be too hard you can replace the springs with softer ones? He did mention that he doubts I will have an issue. I only asked this as there have been a discussion around this recently
What surface will you be landing on? W very fortunate here in Dubai having a really long run way. the bounce you referring to has a number of factors. I'm no expert and this is my first jet build but just my 2c worth.
Question, did you specifically order your electron landing gear for the Ultra flash? I had a brief discussion with our local rep her and apparently the UF combo from electron is designed around the models weight. It was also mentioned that should the springs be too hard you can replace the springs with softer ones? He did mention that he doubts I will have an issue. I only asked this as there have been a discussion around this recently
What surface will you be landing on? W very fortunate here in Dubai having a really long run way. the bounce you referring to has a number of factors. I'm no expert and this is my first jet build but just my 2c worth.
#5499
My Feedback: (9)
Hi Gary,Question, did you specifically order your electron landing gear for the Ultra flash? I had a brief discussion with our local rep her and apparently the UF combo from electron is designed around the models weight. It was also mentioned that should the springs be too hard you can replace the springs with softer ones? He did mention that he doubts I will have an issue. I only asked this as there have been a discussion around this recently What surface will you be landing on? W very fortunate here in Dubai having a really long run way. the bounce you referring to has a number of factors. I'm no expert and this is my first jet build but just my 2c worth.
#5500
My Feedback: (39)
Seems like a waste of time to post here and trying to help others.
Thomas