BaldEagel

Bouncing on landing is a common problem with newbie jet pilots, in most instances its because the pilot is not holding off long enough and the wing is still flying on touch down, there should be a gradual back pressure applied to the elevator until the jet settles down by itself nose high, setting up the landing approach will start a lot further back from the runway than normal, aim to touch down on the numbers, also reflex on the ailerons helps to kill lift, and up to 85degs of flap turns them into airbrakes they will then not act as flaps that just float the jet on and on.

Shortening the nose leg will help a little, but the above is the real answer.

Mike

Vendata

Hi Mike,
Thanks for the Info, so do you think he should lower the nose wheel so that the LE / TE is the same! Cant get to much more out of the flaps I would say they go down at least 3/4 & he has two stages but I think he only using full flags on landing first stage probabally wouldn't do any thing in slowing the jet down. I think he would be at least 200 meters away prior to straighting up to the run way for landing he tells me once the plane is level & straight he pulls throttle right back to idle & flicks the switch down for the flaps which is full flap & brings it in for landing & the run way is 180 meters long.
Thanks
Dave.

BaldEagel

The nose wheel should not make a lot of difference as touch down should be nose high with the wing fully stalled, one of the problems with the Tornado/Navy cats was the flap LE taper, it was reversed from what it should be, my solution was to swap the left and right flap and turn them over, this allowed 85 deg flap deflection, up to about 40 deg deflection you will be increasing lift and not adding a great deal of drag, its only when you get past 45 degs that drag really sets up, these jet are quite clean and it takes a lot of drag to slow them down.

Another problem often encountered is landing nose wheel first (inevitable bounce) this comes from trying to land too fast, when the approach was wrong on the base leg, not far enough back and rushing the lading due to running out of runway. I fly from a 50M dia patch in the middle of a sheep field, the circuits have to be right from the start of the downwind leg, beside dodging the feeding troughs and cavorting lambs it make every flight an adventure.

Just re-read your post, if he is able to chop the throttle on approach then he does not have enough drag, once the flaps are fully deployed on the approach (just after base leg) then it should be down to throttle management, playing the throttle against the drag to spot land with the nose high, watch any jet land they are not at idle.

First stage flap on downwind leg and on base leg, setting the throttle to get a nice glide angle, full flap on approach with reflex ailerons to kill the lift, play the throttle to control the rate of decent leaving the flaps and reflex on full deflection, keep pulling back until it touches down all by itself, job done.

Mike

Vendata

Hey Mike,
Yes now it all makes sence, I see what you are saying, using throttle control against flaps, & elevator to keep nose of the jet up to land.
We will try this out in the week end that's if the weather is nice to us, been really crappy here in New Zealand lately & its suppose to be our summer.
Instaed we are getting 4 seasons in one day with most days to windy to fly any thing.
Any way thanks so much for the Info.
Dave.

BaldEagel

Your more than welcome, let us know how you get on.Mike

gsmarino2000

My Feedback: (2)

Vendata,

This was one of my more difficult planes to land smoothly. I broke the nose pin and damaged the main gear mounts several times before I developed a technique that works for me. I now have about 85 flights on mine and I rarely bounce it. I have the Navy Cat trailing link gear and if anything those gear make it worse. The plane must be slowed down so that the wing is done flying (essentially stalled) when the wheels touch. So you have to pull the nose up a bit an hold the mains about 50mm/2" off the runway until the plane settles of it's own accord. Don't hold it off much higher or the stall will cause a bounce of it's own. I have a K80G on mine and it's a great jet for daily fun. I've also flown mine with a K100 ... not really much difference in speed but the vertical is truly spectacular.

BTW there is a pretty comprehensive thread on the current Navy Cat version on RCG. I recommend perusing both threads.

Greg

BaldEagel

Vendata

Don't forget to put about 6-10mm of up aileron on final stage flap, this kills the lift somewhat and beside giving the wing a bit of wash out, decreases the stalling speed, it increases the rate of decent, makes the whole thing much easier.

Mike

why_fly_high

My Feedback: (19)

Each style is different. I drop gear and full flaps on downwind. Fly entire approach at about 30% throttle, idle over the fence and touch down pretty consistent at the end. I played with the flaps and found it seemed to get "loose" on flair with too much flap. Mine are set to 3.5" down for landing.

BaldEagel

You will find with the ailerons reflexed the feel is much more solid.

Mike

why_fly_high

My Feedback: (19)

I played with that but it didn't feel right to me either. Like I said, people's technique vary. You have to find what works for you. I have a bunch of flights on my Navy Cat and had a Tornado before that. Play with the setting until you find what works for you. The main thing is to hold the plane off until done flying. When you come in and start your flair you can see when the plane hits a nice attitude with the nose up in the air to ensure you don't touch the nosewheel first.

Vendata

Hi Guys,
Thanks so much for the info, I was just thinking having the nose wheel a bit higher & now going to reduce so that the LE / TE is the same height will it still get off the ground ok or will we need to hold it on the ground longer before feeding in elevator.
Thanks.

joeflyer

My Feedback: (48)

That's too nose high and probably why it bounces easily. You definitely don't want a negative angle of attack, so it's best to err on the side of being slightly nose high to allow for future tire or strut wear, etc. Probably about 1/4" to a maximum of 1/2" higher in the front is best.

If shortening the strut is a problem you can get the same effect with a smaller nose wheel, larger main wheels, or putting spacers under the main retracts.

Heliman4213

My Feedback: (1)

MY tires are worn down to almost nothing. Has anyone here replaced the tires yet? I have almost 300 flights on mine and I am almost on my rims.

KXH121

My Feedback: (20)

Good morning Gents,
Does anyone have a V1/V2 construction manual for the Tornado they are willing to either part with or copy? I have misplaced mine and I will pay for the manual and/or shipping. I have had one of the first produced and it has been glassed and primered for a couple of years and due to work has sat that way. I have made up my mind to finish and fly it. Please PM if you have one and thanks in advance.

v/r
Ken

why_fly_high

My Feedback: (19)

Google is your friend.

http://www.hebu-gmbh.ch/anleitungen/navycat_manual.pdf

KXH121

My Feedback: (20)

Thanks,
I found that one earlier and there are some portions missing from the manual I originally had. There are small things such as tank assembly details that I need.

v/r
Ken

why_fly_high

My Feedback: (19)

I used that manual for both my Tornado and Navy Cat. Any particular question about tank assembly? Do it like any other tank except I safety wire the fuel connections.

KXH121

My Feedback: (20)

Mission Complete!!! Thanks Robert for the scanned manual.

airborn900

My Feedback: (25)

Hello,

I have one of these that the build was started on but not finished. I am gathering what I need and I hope to test fly it the weekend of the 21st. It is the version with the carbon fiber in the tail booms and carbon fiber reinforced gear blocks and it uses the shorter gear legs. I have a 100n motor for it. I am guilty of not reading this whole thread. Are there any mods that need to be done to the later versions? Should I glue the horizontal to the booms? What do you guys who have had these recommend?

gsmarino2000

My Feedback: (2)

Hi airborne900,

It's good to see some activity. I built one of the Navy Cat carbon-reinforced version with the trailing link mains about 6 years ago and used it to get my waiver. I have about 170 flights on it by now. I did glue the horizontal stabs to the tail booms and I transport that assembly as a unit. The other primary mod I have done are to strengthen the landing gear mounts. Maybe if you have shorter gear that would help. I have 3 turbine jets, and while the Navy Cat/Tornado is a great flyer in the air, for me it's still a PITA to land consistently. Stall it just a bit too high or let the wheels touch a bit too fast and the bouncing starts. The nose gear pin can be straightened / replaced but its better to reinforce the mains from the start.

The only other mods I made was to move the engine forward (starter partially inside fuse) for better balance and canopy latching. I used the engine angle recommendations from the Navy Cat forum. Some guys at our field glassed theirs and did the single elevator mod, but I stayed with the original Chinese coating and dual elevator servos and no issues to date. I do find that even using a start pipe to protect the tail, the covering under the horizontal stab and on the rudders tends to wrinkle up over time due to the heat.

I started out with an 80n turbine but later upgraded to a 100n that I had spare after the demise of another airframe. It's certainly overpowered and I only use full throttle for short takeoffs and vertical climbs. Not risky to the airframe as long as you keep the speed down.

Greg

Sparhawk

Yep. Glue the stab to the booms. Reinforce the gear plates now because the mains will pop off on the first landing.

Heliman4213

My Feedback: (1)

I know there's a lot of talk you're going back and forth but I'm going to offer my opinion. I have had three of these jets and still have a new one in the box and they fly super for what they are and there are no issues with landing this airplane. The only issue is like one other person said new flyers land too fast. Like any other jet you need to be level and as the speed bleeds off just pulling the nose up and let it land. People always try to land the jet you have to let the jet land by itself when the speed is proper don't force it down. We actually use a radar gun and had it down to 16 miles an hour, which is almost a walk. I'm an inexperienced jet pilot and have lots of scale jets but had three of these because they fly so well and are very inexpensive.
My first one had over 300 flights on it without a scratch on it. I got the most flap down I could which I believe was about 60°. Again, yes, this is not a BVM jet but it flies great and is very predictable and has zero bad tendencies. You don't have to do anything with the nose wheel or anything else that was said here put it together and fly it.
Your best bet is to try to have somebody who has a lot of experience help you trim it out. Get all set up and have fun with it. I have videos of this plane landing it's going so slow you swear it's going to fall out of the sky, it's very stable.
The only thing I ever did was add some Hysol to the landing gear area and took 6 ounce glass cloth and reinforced from the canopy forward as this was always a sort of a weak spot in the airplane that's all.
And just to wrap up and not accusing anybody else of being this, but I'm not a keyboard expert. I fly jets and have a lot of flights on this particular jet.
Good luck with everything and happy flights.

airborn900

My Feedback: (25)

Thank you all for the input. I will glue the stab in and add some hysol to the main gear blocks. I’m waiting on my landing gear to show up. I should be able to get this flying pretty quick.

skybrat16

My Feedback: (13)

Hello all, I am on the hunt for a set of wing tubes for my Tornado V4. If anyone has a spare set or knows where I can get them I would much appreciate it.

alasdair

HELP NEEDED
These model have a tail with a flat bottom section, but if I remember correctly you need to rig the elevator up a little.
I cannot find any note of reference to the amount of up elevator needed for trim.
Can anyone tell me please, how much up elevator is needed to trim it out?