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China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

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China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

Old 01-21-2011, 01:19 PM
  #126  
TimBle
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

Sorry but you're not correct on many counts.

ORIGINAL: Evil_Merlin

Um, no, you also forget that those "military analyists" also were trying to sell something when they said the Su-35 had a slight edge over the F-22.

Number 1, the Su-35 is a multi-role fighter, the F-22 is not (however currently it is being fitted to do so with software and hardware upgrades).


1.) The F-22 is more manuverable than the Su-35 by a considerable margin
The Su-35 has a slightly higher wing loading but uses 3D thrust vectoring nozzles. What also needs to be considered is that the wing loading of the Su-35 is misleading since the design of teh fuselage is also aerofoil shape and reduces the wing loading considerably lower than the F-22. True the F-22 is a lifting body design but that does not help it at all angles of attack

2.) The F-22 is faster than the Su-35 (not by much however it does have supercruise which the Su-35 does not)

True , 20km/hr argh well just leave off a pylon.
3.) The F-22 has a much better thrust to weight ratio than the Su-35

The trust to weight ratio is actually similar. But it depends on which figures you look at,Wet weight thrust the SU-35 is 1.1 and the F-22 1.08. Armed these numbers vary considerably

4.) The F-22 has a higher rate of climb than the Su-35. While the exact number is still classified its known to be around 300 M/s which is considerably faster than the Su-35's 250m/s.

Incorrect, the Su-35 truerate of climb has not been disclosed and is thought to be in excess of 300m/s, Yes it can break the sound barrier going straight up. I'd call this one a dead heat since the true figure for each is not known. Sukhoi claims 280m/s but it is generally thought to be >300m/s

5.) The F-22 has a larger combat radius than the Su-35 (not by much however)

Incorrect again, the combat radius of the Su-35 is considerably bigger at 3600km vs 2900km. Its combat range is around 30% greater than the F-22

6.) The F-22 can carry a CONSDIERABLY larger combat load (83500 vs 76060)

Have you been reading George Bush's fantasy journals? The Su-35 has more hardpoints for a wider configurationof armament. For the F-22 to carry the comabt load you mention it would have to fit external hardpoints, destroying its stealth and considerably increasing wing loading while reducing range

7.) The F-22 AN/APG-77 is probably the best radar in the world currently, even the makers of the Irbis-E say its system isn't as good as the 77 (but does supposedly have better range, but they were talking about Block 1 of the 77, not the newest upgraded systems).

I'll concede on the radar simpl because I know nothing of the su-35's radar except that is has both forward and rearward looking antennae, is both passive and active and is linked to IR sensors to track the heat signature of an aircraft BVR.

Advantages the Su-35 has?

1.) Its much less expensive than the F-22
2.) It is easier to maintain than the F-22, however the F-22's maintenance record is quickly improving and is almost a 4 hours of flight to 1 hour of maintenance, which is a good record for ANY aircraft let alone a stealth aircraft.

This you have correct.
What you need to realise is the F-22 was developed as a deterant. It is designed to boggle the mind of the opposition and be part of the sledge hammer over all strategic plan of the USA. It is a plane designed for peacetime than may see conflict.

The Su-35 is designed for combat. It is designed to operate off unprepared runways (which the F-22 cannot do), it is designed to be repaired quickly and easily and it is designed to carry a wide variety of ordanance.
the F-22 sacrifices a lot of payload capability in order to be stealthy.

Its a fantastic achievement and is everythign I would expect from a company like Lockheed but it has been severely compromised by federal politics and the wheeling and dealling needed to create jonbs in various states hence everyone wanted a finger in the pie. Its a shame because without this politics the cost could have been lower.
The Su-35 never suffered from those issues.
Any pilot who encounters a Su-35 in combat and does not treat it with respect will find him/herself dead.
In many ways the T-50 and J-20 do not appear to have been compromised to such a large degree and also reflect some clear political thinking; in order to win wars, it must be available in numbers and quickly.
The USA could not afford too many F-117A's, nor too many B-2's and now F/A-22's. Why? ask the politicians.

Yeah I'm going to get shotgunned by the patriots now but the truth has a tendency to sting.
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Old 01-21-2011, 01:45 PM
  #127  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so


ORIGINAL: hsukaria


ORIGINAL: bambam102


ORIGINAL: TimBle


ORIGINAL: rcairflr


ORIGINAL: meef rustler

F-22's are trash, that's why they are being replaced. No chinese plane would ever win. It's not the plane it's the pilot, in a dog fight yes it's partly the plane, but mostly the pilot's ability. Our pilots are very well trained.

And who cares if it's better than the f-22s, we are getting new aircraft. Stop looking at the f22, look at the f-35 that is going to replace it.

You should go back to your video games or whatever you do, since you do not have a clue (as well as numerous others in this thread). The F-35 does not replace the F-22. The F-22 is a Air Superiority Fighter that was designed to replace/supplement the F-15. The F-35 is a Multi-role aircraft designed to replace aircraft such as the F-16, F-18 (not E/F versions), A-10 and AV-8 Harrier).

The F-22 may be expensive but to say it is trash is just plain idiotic. It is the premier Air Superiority fighter in the world.

Throughout this thread I hear people talking about vectored thrust and dogfights. Well in modern war there are very few dogfights. Most enemy aircraft, downed by the US, don't ever see who shot them out of the sky. You don't need vectored thrust to shoot someone from 30 miles away

As far as the skill of the Chinese fighter pilots, I have no idea of their skill level today, but if anyone here doesn't think they are training everyday and not getting better all the time is an idiot and underestimates the willpower of the Chinese to become a dominate world power. Also, the J-20 maybe inferior to the F-22, but again they will drive very hard to in time, improve the aircraft to make it competitive with anything we have.


Although you are correct on the difereing roles of the F-22 and F-35, I hink your optimism on the irrelevance of Dogfights in modern is very short sighted and I suspect grounded in propaganda touted during fairly uneven battles like the ''GulfWar'' and WAr on terrorim etal. those were not battles they were one sided turkey shoots.
Us pilots came up against relatively less trained pilots in export fighters with lower rated engines and avionics.

In anyh modern air to air battle, weight of numbers, agility, speed, manuoevrability and to a lesser extent stealth are key elements in any battle. Once we get to within gun range, the highly trained pilot with the most agile aircraft gains the upper hand. Every Air to air battle has shown this.

The F-22, as good as it is is not the master of the skies. Many international military analysts rated the SU-35 very highly in an air to air battle and stilgive it the edge in a dogfight.
Even in the development program for teh F-22, Lockheed never once considered dropping the gun. it was always part of the specification.

I have no idea of the capability of the J-20, I do not know its weight and amnot sure of the degree of lifting body lift generated by the fuselage. The F-22 has a hfairly high degree of lifting body shpe but the J-20 appears to have more thanks to a longer Fuselage.

On the stealthiness of the F-22 diffused nozzles, is inconclusive in a battle. If an airplane is firing short range AA missles like the Vympel R-73 (Nato AA-11 Archer) those nozzle are going to help it none. LOckheed never considered not utilising the non TV version of the F119 because they new they needed to tighten the turn radius as muchas possible to compete with the Su-35

The F-22 does have advantages in data management but also still relies on technology that would get knocked out first in a major conflict i.e. Satellites, ground relay stations etc. It does have many onboard sensors but still lacks a long range IR seeker which I believe the SU-35 still has. Not sure of the J-20 since what we are seeing is a prototype, not an operation aircraft.

In real conflict, where the odds are even and the F-22 is not shooting at farmers who watched chickens fly as an inspiration, it will still have its work cut out in beating a highly trained Russianor Indian or Chinese pilot in SU-35, T-50 or J-20's

Makng a definative assessment is impossible simply because these aircraft have never come up against each other and hopefully never will.

And there you have it. Our knowledge of our own pilots and hardware capabilities can only be rooted in propaganda. much better we get the true gospel from South Africa. wish I had known that before joining the Air force. Sure would have saved me some time.
It never hurts to get good advice from a friend! Maybe you don't agree with it, but an outsider viewpoint can help. And I'm sure there is a lot of propaganda going around from all sides.
My experience working on the F-16s helped me appreciate smaller, maneuverable, low-cost, high-volume fighters. We need them as well as the air-superiority (high cost, low volume) fighters.
Perhaps we have differing definitions of what a "friend" is. Lets take Stryykas, the original poster for example. He masquerades as a friend, but seems to resent every breath taken by America. trust "friends" like these at your own peril

Perhaps we have differing Ideas of what a great source of advice might be. I tend to not listen to people that have less first hand experience or knowledge with a problem than I have. If you feel differently, good luck with that.

As far as the F-22 goes, I remember when the Russians were saying that the Su-35bm was equivalent to it. I remember the Indians claiming the same with their Su-30 MKI.

I guess they must have had a change of heart as they obviously thought the T-50 was necessary.

I remember Russian talk of a so called "Plasma stealth they had developed being superior to the American approach. interesting that they have adopted our approach now.

I remember Russians plans for full 3d thrust vectoring to ensure superior agility. they have changed their minds on that as well and are now going with raptor style 2d vectoring to enhance rear aspect stealth.

Any knucklehead knows that no aircraft provides total victory guarantees, not even the F-22. pilot skill and experience is a huge part. Stealth maneuvers and tactics cant even begin to be practiced until you have an operational platform to practice them with. The Americans have had many years jump with this. The Russians and Chinese then have not only a hardware gap to overcome but a training one as well.

Both the T-50 and the J-20 are not even close to complete and operational and until they are, are nothing more than the Mikoyan MFI 1.44 and the Sukhoi Su-47, simple technology demonstrators... which by the way, I remember even those being compared favorably to the F-22.

The raptor must be doing something right. If we had a dollar for every raptor hater, we could afford 500 more! how long will it be b4 someone puts up a picture of a raptor in the gun sights of a 747? anyone? anyone? Strykass?
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:31 PM
  #128  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

J-10`s look cool

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89mJ9ddFqpc&feature=related[/youtube]
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Old 01-21-2011, 02:33 PM
  #129  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so


ORIGINAL: bambam102


ORIGINAL: hsukaria


ORIGINAL: bambam102


ORIGINAL: TimBle


ORIGINAL: rcairflr


ORIGINAL: meef rustler

F-22's are trash, that's why they are being replaced. No chinese plane would ever win. It's not the plane it's the pilot, in a dog fight yes it's partly the plane, but mostly the pilot's ability. Our pilots are very well trained.

And who cares if it's better than the f-22s, we are getting new aircraft. Stop looking at the f22, look at the f-35 that is going to replace it.

You should go back to your video games or whatever you do, since you do not have a clue (as well as numerous others in this thread). The F-35 does not replace the F-22. The F-22 is a Air Superiority Fighter that was designed to replace/supplement the F-15. The F-35 is a Multi-role aircraft designed to replace aircraft such as the F-16, F-18 (not E/F versions), A-10 and AV-8 Harrier).

The F-22 may be expensive but to say it is trash is just plain idiotic. It is the premier Air Superiority fighter in the world.

Throughout this thread I hear people talking about vectored thrust and dogfights. Well in modern war there are very few dogfights. Most enemy aircraft, downed by the US, don't ever see who shot them out of the sky. You don't need vectored thrust to shoot someone from 30 miles away

As far as the skill of the Chinese fighter pilots, I have no idea of their skill level today, but if anyone here doesn't think they are training everyday and not getting better all the time is an idiot and underestimates the willpower of the Chinese to become a dominate world power. Also, the J-20 maybe inferior to the F-22, but again they will drive very hard to in time, improve the aircraft to make it competitive with anything we have.


Although you are correct on the difereing roles of the F-22 and F-35, I hink your optimism on the irrelevance of Dogfights in modern is very short sighted and I suspect grounded in propaganda touted during fairly uneven battles like the ''GulfWar'' and WAr on terrorim etal. those were not battles they were one sided turkey shoots.
Us pilots came up against relatively less trained pilots in export fighters with lower rated engines and avionics.

In anyh modern air to air battle, weight of numbers, agility, speed, manuoevrability and to a lesser extent stealth are key elements in any battle. Once we get to within gun range, the highly trained pilot with the most agile aircraft gains the upper hand. Every Air to air battle has shown this.

The F-22, as good as it is is not the master of the skies. Many international military analysts rated the SU-35 very highly in an air to air battle and stilgive it the edge in a dogfight.
Even in the development program for teh F-22, Lockheed never once considered dropping the gun. it was always part of the specification.

I have no idea of the capability of the J-20, I do not know its weight and amnot sure of the degree of lifting body lift generated by the fuselage. The F-22 has a hfairly high degree of lifting body shpe but the J-20 appears to have more thanks to a longer Fuselage.

On the stealthiness of the F-22 diffused nozzles, is inconclusive in a battle. If an airplane is firing short range AA missles like the Vympel R-73 (Nato AA-11 Archer) those nozzle are going to help it none. LOckheed never considered not utilising the non TV version of the F119 because they new they needed to tighten the turn radius as muchas possible to compete with the Su-35

The F-22 does have advantages in data management but also still relies on technology that would get knocked out first in a major conflict i.e. Satellites, ground relay stations etc. It does have many onboard sensors but still lacks a long range IR seeker which I believe the SU-35 still has. Not sure of the J-20 since what we are seeing is a prototype, not an operation aircraft.

In real conflict, where the odds are even and the F-22 is not shooting at farmers who watched chickens fly as an inspiration, it will still have its work cut out in beating a highly trained Russianor Indian or Chinese pilot in SU-35, T-50 or J-20's

Makng a definative assessment is impossible simply because these aircraft have never come up against each other and hopefully never will.

And there you have it. Our knowledge of our own pilots and hardware capabilities can only be rooted in propaganda. much better we get the true gospel from South Africa. wish I had known that before joining the Air force. Sure would have saved me some time.
It never hurts to get good advice from a friend! Maybe you don't agree with it, but an outsider viewpoint can help. And I'm sure there is a lot of propaganda going around from all sides.
My experience working on the F-16s helped me appreciate smaller, maneuverable, low-cost, high-volume fighters. We need them as well as the air-superiority (high cost, low volume) fighters.
Perhaps we have differing definitions of what a ''friend'' is. Lets take Stryykas, the original poster for example. He masquerades as a friend, but seems to resent every breath taken by America. trust ''friends'' like these at your own peril

Perhaps we have differing Ideas of what a great source of advice might be. I tend to not listen to people that have less first hand experience or knowledge with a problem than I have. If you feel differently, good luck with that.

As far as the F-22 goes, I remember when the Russians were saying that the Su-35bm was equivalent to it. I remember the Indians claiming the same with their Su-30 MKI.

I guess they must have had a change of heart as they obviously thought the T-50 was necessary.

I remember Russian talk of a so called ''Plasma stealth they had developed being superior to the American approach. interesting that they have adopted our approach now.

I remember Russians plans for full 3d thrust vectoring to ensure superior agility. they have changed their minds on that as well and are now going with raptor style 2d vectoring to enhance rear aspect stealth.

Any knucklehead knows that no aircraft provides total victory guarantees, not even the F-22. pilot skill and experience is a huge part. Stealth maneuvers and tactics cant even begin to be practiced until you have an operational platform to practice them with. The Americans have had many years jump with this. The Russians and Chinese then have not only a hardware gap to overcome but a training one as well.

Both the T-50 and the J-20 are not even close to complete and operational and until they are, are nothing more than the Mikoyan MFI 1.44 and the Sukhoi Su-47, simple technology demonstrators... which by the way, I remember even those being compared favorably to the F-22.

The raptor must be doing something right. If we had a dollar for every raptor hater, we could afford 500 more! how long will it be b4 someone puts up a picture of a raptor in the gun sights of a 747? anyone? anyone? Strykass?
Ok, Ok, I agree with you that we must choose our friends carefully. I also love the F-22. And it is pointless to try to compare one airplane to another when they are part of a Total System. It seems to me that the Russian (and their copies from China and India) fighter planes have only been good for airshows to sell to Third World dictatorships at the expense of their starving populations. But then, where else can I go and chew the fat?
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Old 01-21-2011, 03:38 PM
  #130  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

Oh here we go... someone who thinks he knows. If'n I remember too, you were posting false data in another thread about the F-35...

1.) THe F-22 has thrust vectoring as well, but with one HUGE advanage, the flight computer of the F-22 allows it to do things the Su-35 simply cannot do. Just take a look at the demo flights for the F-22 which are done for the public. The F-22 CAN DO much more than that. The F-22 has more effective manuvering at just about every angle of attack over the Su-25, especially at flight envelope edges.

3.) The thrust to weight ratio of the latest verison of the Su-35 is 1.01, the F-22, 1.08. .07 is a large delta when it comes to thrust/weight. Armed, they favour the F-22, as MOST american weapon systems are lighter than compatible Russian weapons.

4.) Um, yes, the Su-35's true climb rate has been discolosed, afterall, its being sold to four different countries. Its known to be under 300m/s and Su themselves mark it at 250m/s. The F-22 is KNOWN and has been shown in public doing over 300m/s. Again, thats in public meaning in a fight, it can do better.

5.) You do know the difference between combat raidus and ferry range right? Because those numbers you gave are NOT combat radius. Not even close. Try Wikipedia again.

6.) It can still carry more, stealthy or not, it can carry almost a full 10,000 lbs more.

7.) The F-22 has the same sensor suite, minus the rearward antenna, as it has no need for it. The Su-35's rear system is for missle use only.


Again, stop reading Russian marketing literature.




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Old 01-21-2011, 05:14 PM
  #131  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so


ORIGINAL: SJN

J-10`s look cool
It may look cool but I think the F-16 (which has been around 30 years or so) would make short work of it. It may also be an Israeli Lavi copy.
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:14 PM
  #132  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so


ORIGINAL: TimBle

Sorry but you're not correct on many counts.

ORIGINAL: Evil_Merlin

Um, no, you also forget that those ''military analyists'' also were trying to sell something when they said the Su-35 had a slight edge over the F-22.

Number 1, the Su-35 is a multi-role fighter, the F-22 is not (however currently it is being fitted to do so with software and hardware upgrades).


1.) The F-22 is more manuverable than the Su-35 by a considerable margin
The Su-35 has a slightly higher wing loading but uses 3D thrust vectoring nozzles. What also needs to be considered is that the wing loading of the Su-35 is misleading since the design of teh fuselage is also aerofoil shape and reduces the wing loading considerably lower than the F-22. True the F-22 is a lifting body design but that does not help it at all angles of attack

2.) The F-22 is faster than the Su-35 (not by much however it does have supercruise which the Su-35 does not)

True , 20km/hr argh well just leave off a pylon.
3.) The F-22 has a much better thrust to weight ratio than the Su-35

The trust to weight ratio is actually similar. But it depends on which figures you look at, Wet weight thrust the SU-35 is 1.1 and the F-22 1.08. Armed these numbers vary considerably

4.) The F-22 has a higher rate of climb than the Su-35. While the exact number is still classified its known to be around 300 M/s which is considerably faster than the Su-35's 250m/s.

Incorrect, the Su-35 truerate of climb has not been disclosed and is thought to be in excess of 300m/s, Yes it can break the sound barrier going straight up. I'd call this one a dead heat since the true figure for each is not known. Sukhoi claims 280m/s but it is generally thought to be >300m/s

5.) The F-22 has a larger combat radius than the Su-35 (not by much however)

Incorrect again, the combat radius of the Su-35 is considerably bigger at 3600km vs 2900km. Its combat range is around 30% greater than the F-22

6.) The F-22 can carry a CONSDIERABLY larger combat load (83500 vs 76060)

Have you been reading George Bush's fantasy journals? The Su-35 has more hardpoints for a wider configurationof armament. For the F-22 to carry the comabt load you mention it would have to fit external hardpoints, destroying its stealth and considerably increasing wing loading while reducing range

7.) The F-22 AN/APG-77 is probably the best radar in the world currently, even the makers of the Irbis-E say its system isn't as good as the 77 (but does supposedly have better range, but they were talking about Block 1 of the 77, not the newest upgraded systems).

I'll concede on the radar simpl because I know nothing of the su-35's radar except that is has both forward and rearward looking antennae, is both passive and active and is linked to IR sensors to track the heat signature of an aircraft BVR.

Advantages the Su-35 has?

1.) Its much less expensive than the F-22
2.) It is easier to maintain than the F-22, however the F-22's maintenance record is quickly improving and is almost a 4 hours of flight to 1 hour of maintenance, which is a good record for ANY aircraft let alone a stealth aircraft.

This you have correct.
What you need to realise is the F-22 was developed as a deterant. It is designed to boggle the mind of the opposition and be part of the sledge hammer over all strategic plan of the USA. It is a plane designed for peacetime than may see conflict.

The Su-35 is designed for combat. It is designed to operate off unprepared runways (which the F-22 cannot do), it is designed to be repaired quickly and easily and it is designed to carry a wide variety of ordanance.
the F-22 sacrifices a lot of payload capability in order to be stealthy.

Its a fantastic achievement and is everythign I would expect from a company like Lockheed but it has been severely compromised by federal politics and the wheeling and dealling needed to create jonbs in various states hence everyone wanted a finger in the pie. Its a shame because without this politics the cost could have been lower.
The Su-35 never suffered from those issues.
Any pilot who encounters a Su-35 in combat and does not treat it with respect will find him/herself dead.
In many ways the T-50 and J-20 do not appear to have been compromised to such a large degree and also reflect some clear political thinking; in order to win wars, it must be available in numbers and quickly.
The USA could not afford too many F-117A's, nor too many B-2's and now F/A-22's. Why? ask the politicians.

Yeah I'm going to get shotgunned by the patriots now but the truth has a tendency to sting.

For the record TimBle, you are wrong on a few points as well. The Su-35 has a canted 2d thrust vector system, not nearly as effective as full 3d, secondly, what YOU must realize is that every scenario you depict assumes a knife fight, which would only happen if the raptor pilot chose to play down most of his own advantages.

leave off a pylon to match the raptor speed? ok but leave off the weapon as well.

The sukhoi was meant for combat but the raptor was meant only to deter??? are you seriously saying that Lockheed had no intention for the raptor to actually experience combat??? Ill give you a moment to recant that theory. you can thank me later.

I know nothing of farmers and chickens I will defer to your obvious expertise on that, but your mention of the raptor intakes detection by the archer, yet again supposes a WVR confrontation,

Long range Irst detection is indeed retained by the SU-35, and no the raptor as of yet does not have this ability. but then neither does the f-16 or f-15, both of which have numerous victories over the mig-29 which does have this capability, so It isn't a deal breaker.

You said, the truth stings... perhaps This you have correct. but don't worry stings heal in time.

You take speculation, then postulate and try to post as gospel. South Africa is pretty far from any American air base I'm aware of.... and further still from any Russian ab.

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Old 01-21-2011, 05:38 PM
  #133  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

Honestly though, the lack of "long range" with the 77 really is a seriously moot point, as ALL F-22's in the area have the ability to link radar systems making a dispersed net of detection.

The 77 has a 120° field of view in azimuth and elevation, and mind you it can do ALL that instantly. No delay. As an example, the APG-63 (used in the F-15) takes 15 seconds to do the same thing. The Iribis is limited 60 degrees in both azimuth and elevation its only usung a hydraulic actuator that the azimuth coverage increases 120 degrees, and thats JUST azimuth.

Mind you the APG-70 (used on the F-15E) can actively track AND engage 32 targets at once. And that was with APG-70, a radar system nearly 30 years old...


So yeah the Iribis has range, the F-22 as net sharing, and a lot more functionality.

Win... F-22.
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:48 PM
  #134  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

Also under most circumstances the F-22 will not even have its radar on, but will be using the info from other aircraft. This allows it to remain stealth. It can get a lock on and you won't even know it until the missle is enroute.
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Old 01-21-2011, 05:55 PM
  #135  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

glorified F16........
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Old 01-21-2011, 06:08 PM
  #136  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

Of course there's the issue that the USAF has already received around 180+ F-22's, right? and and the Russian Air Force "plans" to receive somewhere around 50 SU-35's by 2015...

Bob
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:12 PM
  #137  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

The problem is we have 170 something F-22s, and will never have any more. China can build a few thousand of theirs secretly, and win by sheer numbers. A war with China is a war we loose.
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Old 01-21-2011, 07:56 PM
  #138  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

F-22 is definitely better than the J-20 one on one, but can be easily out numbered. Treating China as a future enemy is looking for trouble for oneself. Throughout the history, China has never been an invader. Instead, they were invaded by Mongol's and Europeans. I really don't think we should even consider China as our enemy and waste our valuable tax dollars on weapons for a war that's not going to happen. The cold war was over. China took the wrong side with Soviet Unions and got themselves to the edge of national bankruptcy. Luckily they changed their path and sided with the west after 1978. Look at what's happened since then. We are bankrupting our country by over expenditure, huge budget deficit, social problems, and outdated infrastructure. Economy growth is the key. We should thank Chinese government for managing 1/5-1/4 of worldwide population using 1/5 of our energy consumption and keep them within the great wall of China. If we don't manage our finance well, I can see that one day the wall street will use these F-22s to default and kick out our international creditors. You know who owns most of our national debts.

In case you ask, I am just like many Americans out there in China selling products to the Chinese and buying products from them, creating jobs on both sides. It's not a zero-sum game like a lot of people trying to portrait. Don't let politicians fool you.

Mike
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Old 01-21-2011, 08:44 PM
  #139  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

It's not the chinese that will be the threat it is the ones they will sell the aircraft to. Do you honestly think they won't hand them out like candy to strategic allies or to anyone with the cash?
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:02 PM
  #140  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

NEver say never. We also were not supposed to get more F-15s, more F-16s, get the SR-71 back in the air again.

If the T-50 and J-20 are seen as real threats, you can bet that the F-22 would be right back into production.
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Old 01-21-2011, 10:55 PM
  #141  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

WWII Europe taught us that being high tec, with an emphasis on quality, with all the experienced pilots can be beat by cheap planes with inexperienced pilots when you fill the sky with them. Power, maneuverability, firepower, are moot when the enemy can’t hide.
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:12 AM
  #142  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

Wow this is getting hot and heavy.

I have a solution. lets sell the Israeli Airforce a few F-22's and I bet by the end of the decade we will know who will be the premiere air supremacy fighter.[>:]
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:05 AM
  #143  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

ORIGINAL: Evil_Merlin

NEver say never. We also were not supposed to get more F-15s, more F-16s, get the SR-71 back in the air again.

If the T-50 and J-20 are seen as real threats, you can bet that the F-22 would be right back into production.
You make it seem like you can take a production line that has been closed down for a period of time and then, poof, magically you reopen it. Well that is not reality. It takes a incredible amount of rehiring and retraining at all levels and being able to get parts from vendors who have closed down or started building other things. Or do you think all the people and parts are just standing by to reopen the line.
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:08 AM
  #144  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

ORIGINAL: skyhawknut

And I will never think any country or it's military is better
I'm sorry your so blinded.

The Isreali's could fight circles around anyone else.
The Israeli are capable fighters indeed, but to think they could go up against the might of the US military or even the Chinese is ridicuolous.

One on one in war games, yes, but wars are not fought one on one.
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:15 AM
  #145  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so


ORIGINAL: socshooter

Wow this is getting hot and heavy.

I have a solution. lets sell the Israeli Airforce a few F-22's and I bet by the end of the decade we will know who will be the premiere air supremacy fighter.[>:]



Since the Israelis were not the topic and they don't have f-22s what problem is your solution or post addressing?
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:19 AM
  #146  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so


ORIGINAL: box kite

WWII Europe taught us that being high tec, with an emphasis on quality, with all the experienced pilots can be beat by cheap planes with inexperienced pilots when you fill the sky with them. Power, maneuverability, firepower, are moot when the enemy can’t hide.
I'm a little confused by what you are trying to say. "...can be beat by cheap planes with inexperienced pilots...". What major country did we go against that had inexperienced pilots or cheap airplanes? Sure by the end of the war most of the axis powers had inexperienced pilots because most of their experienced pilots were dead.
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:43 AM
  #147  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

BAMBAM102 Dude stop taking this so serious, its a forum, people express their opinions. And for your information neither was the SU-35 the topic of this forum so if you got offended, too bad? The israeli airforce was the first airforce to use the F-15 against migs and SU's and history now shows that the F-15 is the best fighter of all times with a perfect kill ratio. You think you know everything about these two aircraft but at the end of the day, is the man behind the stick that dictates the outcome and the israeli are not afraid to prove those words.

And by the way neither of the two fighters have been proven themselves in combat and one is not even in production.

lighten up chief, you'll live longer.
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Old 01-22-2011, 07:50 AM
  #148  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

If the Russian & Chinese made fighters are so good how come they dont have a single kill against an American made jet? Apparently it is fun to hate and bash America, but if it wasn't for our dedication to supporting freedom loving people around the world a lot of you would be speaking a different language now. Quite frankly, I'm tired of spilling the blood of good American sons and daughters to support people who really dont give a sh$t how they live. I'm ready to pull all our troops and equipment home and let everyone fend for themselves. Oh yeah, that means bringing our money home with us.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:29 AM
  #149  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

rcairflr, when we entered WWII the germans had the technolage and experience. We had lots of planes and pilots with no combat experience.

Joe
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:39 AM
  #150  
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Default RE: China's J-20 Better Than F-22? Well I do not think so

I look at the J-20 as today’s P-40. In WWII it (the P-40) was cheap and adequate it was passed around to everyone allowing us to learn a lot of lessons prior to being drawn into anything.

The J-20 does not need to be the best, it will be mass produced and spread around like butter.

Joe
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