highhorse

My Feedback: (2)

!!! In techno-medical jargon, "That suuuuucks !!"

Sorry to hear that, my man.

Ron101

My Feedback: (22)

I can't make it this year. I will call tomorrow to get some prices on it. I'd be willing to buy some and send it to you if you could test it.
Would be really cool for guys like me that need safe fuel. Pretty cool that it is non toxic...

lol.. believe it or not it's been a great thing for me. I sold two turbine planes and a shop full of gas planes about 5 years ago and went all electric. It just wan't worth feeling like crap.
I now have a shop full of electric planes that I just love!! wouldn't change that for the life of me... there so user friendly

But I wouldn't mind having one turbine if I could operate it with safe fuel, that would be the only way I could do it in fact
I'd slap it in a rookie or flash

Plus it would have the nice smell of french fries when I fly

rolsen12

I have a new 140K and I can't find anything about useing Diesel in the instructions.
The stuff is very dirty compaired to K-1.
All you have to do is look at the fuel fliters on a big diesel Truck.

C185Pilot

My Feedback: (25)

What's the difference between the KingTech F Series and "E" models? I have a K-80 new in Dec 2010...how do I tell what series it is?

Mike

jblloyd

My Feedback: (17)

K80E = propane (gas) start
K80F = internal kero start

marquisvns

I'd happy to, just let me know when I should expect the fuel to arrive.

Barry

marquisvns

Roger, diesel is no dirtier, not in our findings anyway.

I have a K-80 (diesel burning for the last 20 hours) went back to the factory last year for a 25 hour interval service and they said chamber is surprisingly clean, in fact cleaner, otherwise, definitely no dirtier than what they used to see.

I also have the #001 K-170E powering a boomer xl that's exclusively on diesel and reaching 22 hours. Both engines never had a problem with filter not even having to clean the filter, not once, while the pump load grew lighter.

Barry

marquisvns

Roger, what you have there is a K-140F and it does not like diesel start, so stay with kero on that one for now.


Thanks John,

Barry

ozief16

My Feedback: (13)

Fellas,

Here's a partially-informed input:

Apparently at the big suppliers (read 1 million+ gallon tanks), the Jet A has one hose out that Y's off to two meters. One says Diesel 2 (I think it was 2, could be 1), and the other reads Jet A (with a far different price based on liability if nothing else). Food for thought.

Not that this answers, or even addresses the Diesel vs Kero arguement, but since all the engines are setup to run on Jet A...

V/R
Dave

ira d

The K80 does not have internal start but uses a external plug type heater, I beleive its the K170 that has theinternal heater.

highhorse

My Feedback: (2)

I know what you are getting at, but the operative word there was indeed partial.

First, Diesel ONE may very well share a common manifold because it is very similar in weight...I don't know. But deisel TWO certainly cannot because it is more dense fuel with more lubrication and energy density than Jet or Diesel 1, and Diesel TWO is the common "on road" diesel. So an inference that JetA and "diesel" are the same would be incorrect.

While we are dicussing differences, I have read several times in this thread and others that "diesel" has a "higher sulper content than Jet fuel or kerosene". This is completely false, regardless of which type of deisel is being compared. The max sulpher content standards for JetA and Diesel 1 are the same and they may contain SIX TIMES MORE sulpher than the common on road fuel, diesel 2.

Soooooo, anyway. The higher energy density (approx 5%) of D-2 is why it puts out more power, even in our turbines. Good on Kingtech for breaking that barrier (!) but I will stay with kero just cus it doesn't stink up my house

marquisvns

Ira, thank you for your interest in KingTech engines, if at any moment that I might be of an assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me directly.

A K-80F does have an internal kero burner.

Regards,
Barry [&o]

marquisvns

wikipedia, Diesel Fuel, under aircraft:

Aircraft
Main article: Aircraft diesel engine

"The first diesel-powered flight of a fixed wing aircraft took place on the evening of September 18, 1928, at the Packard Motor Company proving grounds at Utica, USA with Captain Lionel M. Woolson and Walter Lees at the controls (the first "official" test flight was taken the next morning). The engine was designed for Packard by Woolson and the aircraft was a Stinson SM1B, X7654. Later that year, Charles Lindbergh flew the same aircraft. In 1929 it was flown 621 miles (999 km) non-stop from Detroit to Langley, Virginia (near Washington, D.C.). This aircraft is now owned by Greg Herrick and is at the Golden Wings Flying Museum nearby Minneapolis, Minnesota. In 1931, Walter Lees and Fredrick Brossy set the non-stop flight record flying a Bellanca powered by a Packard diesel for 84 hours and 32 minutes. The Hindenburg rigid airship was powered by four 16-cylinder diesel engines, each with approximately 1,200 horsepower (890 kW) available in bursts, and 850 horsepower (630 kW) available for cruising. Modern diesel engines for propellor-driven aircraft are manufactured by Thielert Aircraft Engines and SMA. These engines can run on Jet A fuel, which is similar in composition to automotive diesel and cheaper and more plentiful than the 100 octane low-lead gasoline (avgas) used by the majority of the piston-engine aircraft fleet.[citation needed]

The most-produced aviation diesel engine in history has been the Junkers Jumo 205, which, along with its similar developments from the Junkers Motorenwerke, had approximately 1000 examples of the unique opposed piston, two-stroke design power plant built in the 1930s leading into World War II in Germany."

marquisvns

Wikipedia on Autoignition:

Autoignition point of selected substances

Temperatures vary widely in the literature and should only be used as estimates. Factors which may cause variation include partial pressure of oxygen, altitude, humidity, and amount of time required for ignition.

* Triethylborane: −20 °C (−4 °F)
* Silane: <21 °C (70 °F)
* White phosphorus: 34 °C (93 °F)
* Carbon disulfide: 90 °C (194 °F)
* Diethyl ether: 160 °C (320 °F)[3]
* Diesel or Jet A-1: 210 °C (410 °F)
* Gasoline (Petrol): 246–280 °C (475–536 °F)[4]
* Butane: 405 °C (761 °F)[5]
* Paper: 450 °C (842 °F)[6] or 218°-246°C (424-474°F)[7]
* Magnesium: 473 °C (883 °F)
* Hydrogen: 536 °C (997 °F)[8]

Ron101

My Feedback: (22)

Right on Barry,
I did some research on Bio Diesel and talked to the owner of Bio Fuel Oasis in Berkeley. Like anything there are many different blends.
The non toxic blend is B99 or B100. They sell B99 which is 99.9% bio diesel, it is non-toxic. It's $4.65 a gallon. He felt that if it runs well on diesel it will run just as well on bio. He also said it burns much cleaner than diesel and in a much better lubricant. So it sounds interesting to me anyway..lol.. One important thing is he said is it should be used with rubber seals or hose. But I'm pretty sure you use tygon and will be fine.

this is off there site:
Easy – no conversion to your vehicle and biodiesel can be splashblended with diesel at any time in your fuel tank.
Non-Toxic – biodiesel is the only alternative fuel to have completed the EPA Tier I and II health testing. The test results concluded that biodiesel is non-toxic and biodegradable, posing no threat to human health.
NonFlammable – biodiesel will only ignite at a very high temperature (350° F). As a comparison, gasoline ignites at -43° F.
Good for Your Engine – tests show that biodiesel is more lubricating to both your fuel injection pump and engine than diesel fuel and so may prolong your engine life.
Renewable – biodiesel is made from 85% vegetable oil, a renewable resource.
Cleaner Emissions – greenhouse gases, particulates, and carcinogens are greatly reduced.
Sustainable – in a cradle to grave life cycle analysis, biodiesel comes out positively. For example, one study showed that biodiesel yields 3.2 units of fuel product energy for every 1 unit of fossil energy consumed in its life cycle. By contrast, 1.2 units of fossil resources are used to make 1 unit

I'm going to buy some soon and send it to you to try. Give me a week or twom very busy and the moment.
But I'm dieing to here how this stuff does

Thanks so much for being open to test it out
Ron

marquisvns

Wow, that's much more affordable than I thought, at $4.65 a gallon to be green! I look forward to it Ronnie.

Barry

ira d

Barry im glad to hear the K80 now has the internal burner that makes it aneven better bargain

marquisvns

Thank you Ira!

Barry

marquisvns

"In some countries biodiesel is less expensive than conventional diesel." - wikipedia under biofuel

marquisvns

Ronnie, I was so excited about biodiesel so I found a place here in Southern Cal (manning fuels in Sun Valley, about $4.75 a gallon) and will pick up 4 gallons to try. I'll keep everyone posted, hopefully initial ground testing will be done as early as tomorrow, if all goes well, I"ll fly biodiesel on Satuday.

Barry

jblloyd

My Feedback: (17)

Barry - if diesel and kero have the same ignition temp, why would diesel not work well in the F models?

marquisvns

According to wiki, it is the autoignition (say if you put fuel in an oven, but don't try this at home kids) temp that are the same between diesel and Jet A, not kero.

What matters during the initial stage of ignition of a start up, is the difference of flash point ("The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a liquid's flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed.
The flash point is not to be confused with the autoignition temperature, which does not require an ignition source.") of fuel as follow:

Diesel >62 °C (143 °F) 210 °C (410 °F)
Jet fuel >60 °C (140 °F) 210 °C (410 °F)
Kerosene (paraffin oil) >38°–72 °C (100°–162 °F) 220 °C (428 °F)
Vegetable oil (canola) 327 °C (620 °F)
Biodiesel >130 °C (266 °F)

(a note to the above chart, first value - flash point, subsequent -autoignition)

Ron101

My Feedback: (22)

Right on Barry!!! I'm dieing to hear how it goes!!
What grade? try for B99 or B100..... I wouldn't even add oil to the stuff, from what I've heard and read it's a great lubircant

The only down side I see is if it's really cold, that may be a problem.... The fuel gets thicker when it cold. But beyond that I think it's all a win win

can't wait! Good luck

Ron

ira d

Jeff, At the moment I am in England!! Mike and I have discussed this at length and are in agreement to our findings:

To answer your question:

Wren has tested it's 160 using diesel:

The motor starts and runs fine
It smokes considerably more, especially on decelleration.

Our biggest concern is this:
Sulphur commonly found in diesel fuel will reduce the resistance to corrosion of the inconel components of the combustion chamber. This
results in pitting and "peppering" toward the ends of the vaporizer tubes, gradually reducing their effectiveness, and in the long term, eating them away.
It is difficult to accurately determine the sulphur content that will cause the above effect, or the time scale involved.

Due to this, Wren does not recommend the use of diesel!!

Hope this helps.


_____________________________

Ron Ballard
Wren Turbines USA[ quote]

Hide Signatures

Although this was just posted I knew I hadheard something along the line of what Ron Ballard says here before. I reposted this from the Wren support forum.

marquisvns

Ira,

First, KingTech chamber and vaporizers composed of not only Inconel, we incorporate the even more resilient Hastelloy X (mostly only found on full scale jet engines) at various locations and components.

Second, clearly the high combustion efficiency of KingTech chamber design, with very little built up of carbon.

Therefore, with the low sulfur content of our today's diesel, KingTech engines are well tolerated here in the US and in Taiwan. With the sensitivity of proprietary rights of KingTech and others, we do not wish to further compare or discuss on this subject of engine design or material used.

Bottom line, both the factory and KingTech USA Int'l will warranty KingTech turbines to be operated with diesel fuel.

Barry Hou
KingTech USA Int'l