tucson

My Feedback: (1)

I now have 22 flights on my flash. I still have a hard time slowing it down during my approach. I am using a 120sx for power.

I fly off a 600 ft hard surface runway. We stand near the center of the runway while flying which gives me approx 300 ft to stop. Should be more then enough.

On downwind after my gear pass I put full flaps in with crow. I am using 45 degrees of flap.I know that C/A says to use 60 Degrees. I have read where people have had problems with the speed brake on top of the flap blanking out the elevator when using more then 45 Degrees, so I elected to stay at 45.

On final I have been closing the throttle, but I am using the entire 300 ft to stop and if it weren't for my brakes about 1/2 the time I would go off the far end of the runway.

Because of the wind situation lately I am almost always flying with a crosswind.

I know I am doing something wrong. Maybe I need to keep my approach lower to the ground.

Can some of you high time flash pilots please give me some advice on what I need to do.

Been lucky so far and have not scratched or hurt it yet.

Thanks Stan

Eagle Driver

[link]http://www.youtube.com/user/JetsUnlimited#p/a/u/2/5rPVt3_n5ws[/link]

PaulD

My Feedback: (39)

I found mine really sensitive to residual thrust but that also was partly due to the 160 size engine I am powering it with.

I found crow really helped alot but maybe you are correct and your approach is just too high. I have flown mine off 600 ft grass with no problem but the grass was really sticky/soft so the rollout was really short. (In fact, I'm not sure I woud have gotten it off without the 160.)

If you are confident that the flaps are as much as u can use, then you are running out of options.

One suggestion would be to do a flight and spend a good amount of time towards the end (when you have burned off 1/2 the fuel) flying some circuits at an altitude you are comfortable with flying it slower in the landing config - ie full flaps, crow, gear down. Get used to how the aircraft responds, where the stall point is, doing shallow banking turns at low speeds so that when you do come in for a landing you can make your turns to final at a lower altitude with confidence.

Hope it works out for you...

PaulD

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

Stan,

Speed in the pattern is controlled via the aircraft's attitude/AOA. If you're coming in high and then flying final with the nose down, it will be extremely difficult to slow the Flash down because it is such a clean airframe. Establish your airspeed early by adopting a slightly nose up AOA, then adjust throttle to control the rate of descent. You will be surprised at just how slow the Flash will fly in this configuration. You'll be flying a much flatter pattern at a lower altitude, for sure, but you'll be flying at a much slower airspeed.

David S

SinCityJets

David hit the nail on the head. The Flash needs to be in the pattern nose-high. I know it is hard to get used to, but if you want to land the Flash slow, you have to do it. Not all planes will let you do this, but the Flash will, especially with a little crow. Get the nose up, and keep some power in it.

Chad

Thud_Driver

My Feedback: (1)

On the JetCat you can use the Low Idle setting to reduce residual thrust.

I use about 10 mm more flaps than the book setting and also crow.  Yes the higher flap setting does affect the stab and I moved my Cg farther forward to reduce the neutral feel of the airplane.  I found it very hard to get used to the pitch sensitivity in the pattern.

Low Idle occurs when you move the throttle trim to center, half way between run and off.  You can adjust the rpm for this setting in the ECU.  I'm running about 3K lower than normal idle.  I switch this on automatically thru the radio Idle Down (Up) setting when setting full flaps and crow.  It's off for other than landing.

You still have to get the airplane slowed down but now I can fly a normal pattern without having to drag it in low.

tucson

My Feedback: (1)

PaulD, David and Chad,

Getting the nose up and controlling the altitude with power and dragging it in is going to take some getting used to. I have noticed that the nose wants to come up and have lowered it for fear of stalling it.

When I look at it on the ground with it's 64" wing I see a heavy wing loaded airplane.

I love the way it fly's. I know I will eventually get it right.

Flying off grass would surely slow it down on landing. Maybe thats what I need to do

I haven't seen to many comments on how people slow them down except that a lot of pilots are using crow.

Also the Density altitude here in Tucson with the 90 degree temps we have been having probably puts us at around 5000 ft. Our field elevation is 2400 ft.

Thanks,

Stan

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

Stan,

Aerodynamically speaking, attitude controls your airspeed, power/thrust controls your altitude. The jets we fly have such light wing loadings, relatively speaking, that we tend to get into the habit of reversing it. Learn to control your airspeed in the landing pattern with the jets AOA, instead of the throttle, and you'll gain a much greater level of control overall. Plus it'll be a lot easier to transition to different aircraft, because they will all respond similarly to this basic rule no matter the density altitude, temp etc. The AOA should always be identical. The only difference will be how much power is required to establish/maintain the correct rate of descent.

David S

ddlstang

My Feedback: (2)

You need to slow the plane down before your approach. Bring the plane in on an approach pattern usually my gear pass and maybe half flap. Then will do a mid field turn, turning down wind ( the plane is slow enough I have to add a touch of throttle to maintain elevation and attitude ) at maybe 100' high. What this does is you have bleed off any momentum and can now control the speed and AOA with throttle and elevator ( the elevator starts getting heavy also ). You still are way out of the stall speed of this plane. On your turn to final make sure you are lined up and just start coming off the throttle and just maintain your nose up attitude.

The plane is very easy to land overall but it is slick enough that if the nose goes down it will speed up. I see a lot of people turn into approach right after being inot the throttle, the plane does take a little to slow down. I have landed with little to no wind and no flap, lands a little faster but still nice, with a 20mph wind you dont even need flap, but it helps set the AOA.

Kind of rudamentory but hope this helps.

tucson

My Feedback: (1)

David you are 1000 % correct.

In the many years I spent as a professional pilot that exactly how I controlled my approach altitude.

Even though I have been flying RC since 1953, I am new to jets. This is my second year in it. I have flying an Elan with a lot of success. As you stated Flash is a very clean airplane, but hey I will get it right. Just need to get over the mental block during landings.

It is a lot different when you are sitting in the cockpit watching the gauges and horizon as opposed to looking at this model airplane coming at you not knowing what the airspeed is.

Thanks again

Stan

gooseF22

Your last post tells the story..

the elan is a dive and glide plane. It slows down well when you drop the flaps.. the flash is more traditional..

John redman helped me with my king cat the same way.. fly an extra pattern with the gear down and get it slowed down and under control, slowly lower your altitude in that pattern. take the time to get it under control instead of rushing the landing. I just started making an extra pattern and it helped me alot. gives you a chance to get the nose up and slowed down and under power, when you drop the nose, the speed climbs fast.. John made me fly for 5 minutes at full flap and gear before landing the first time. It was great training..

I had a hard time transitioning from the elan, its so forgiving.. I used to land it no flap because it would glide from the top of the final turn in idle... bad habit for slick or scale jets.

also buy a Habu and put retracts and a little crow in it, so you can practice. I get 2-3 flights on the habu to warm up, you have to slow that thing down or its ugly....cheap practice jet

I was a full scale fighter/AA pilot too... forget that stuff when you fly rc.. the sooner you think in terms of RC without thinking anything about full scale the better...(except for the nose up high AOA performance..)

Its kind of like learning a new language.. you become fluent when your brain thinks in that language instead of translating... when I get to that point, I started flying jets. If you are still translating, fly the elan another 50 flights and try to land no flap and slow it down and practice... then go back and give the flash a try.. the flash will fly almost as slow as the elan, its just hard to imagine it will. hot and high is harder.. Until others have flown at hi density altitudes, they really dont know what that does... its very noticeable eh chad?
dave

Jack Diaz

My Feedback: (1)

Hi Stan:
You mentioned: "I know I am doing something wrong. Maybe I need to keep my approach lower to the ground."

It is just the opposite.

It is an energy balance :
-If you approach low, the energy required to fly comes from the speed (kinetic energy) ..... too fast for landing and staying on the ground.
-If you approach high, the energy comes from the descent rate (potential energy). If the nose is maintained high as David said, the speed is lower and the touch down spot is easier to control with power (the other source of energy available).

I try not to start the descent until I finish the base leg. Then, the descent rate should be such that it will bring the plane to the flare spot.

The difficult part is to transfer this knowledge from your neurons to your fingers It takes practice, and to stay with "one" procedure until perfected.

Remember: one thing is to land, and another one is to fly low until you hit the ground !!!

One last comment: CG forward a bit, makes the model easier to land most times, since it doesn't tend to float forever.

Jack

tucson

My Feedback: (1)

Dave,

Good advice on flying around several times with gear and flaps down. I need to do that. My landings have been fine except for the excess speed.

There has been some very good advice on this thread about slowing down for landings.

All we need now is some good weather so i can go out and practice.

As I mentioned before, the density altitude isn't helping much either.

Start Flying around 7:30 am finish around 10:00 to 10:30 am. The only kicker is I drive 1 hour each way. But that's another story a lot of us have to contend with.

Thanks,

Stan

SinCityJets

Tucson,

Bring that Flash up here to Vegas for a weekend vacation and we'll get you dialed in....plus you get to see Vegas!

Chad

tucson

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks Jack,

My CG is to the forward end.

Like you and others have said, I need to get the nose up on descent.

Stan

tucson

My Feedback: (1)

Chad which field are you flying Jets off in Vegas. I might take you up on that one.

Stan

SinCityJets

Stan,

We are at William Bennett (the old TOC flying field). You are welcome any time.

Chad

Jack Diaz

My Feedback: (1)

Stan, another hint:
You "have to see" the bottom of the wings during the final approach.

Jack

Dblex

My Feedback: (81)

I mixed my flaps and elevator at about -11% (Futaba) to get in high alpha on approach, and I control with throttle and elevator.

rctech2k7

My Feedback: (1)

I'm not familiar with this kind of aircraft but I would like to give some input for you to analyze or consider to improve performance at lowest speed for landing. You can stay or increase your existing flaps configuration depending on your comfortable approach. Considering your existing landing flaps setting, at zero degrees or no elevator input get the lowest throttle level that will maintain its altitude. Then increase AoA up to around 3-deg, you should increase your power too and then familiarize that throttle. The plane should slow down. Then increase AoA to comfortable angle but not too much, you should increase the power also and familiarize it again. The plane should slow down more. At higher angle make sure the plane is laterally stable (roll stability), not to use excessive aileron input and use rudder to turn during final.

If you want to increase your flaps, the tendency is you are shifting the center of wing lift pressure backward so you are making the jet nose heavy, add up elevator trim to compensate. This may not applicable for nose heavy jet due to increasing stall speed of the elevator. Another tendency is you are lowering your stall angle so you should not go above where max AoA at lower flaps is. By increasing flaps you are increasing lift coefficient of the wing, however you are also increasing drag... Depending on the weight of your jet but most likely you need to increase your power as your AoA and flaps increases while you're slowdown your jet for landing.

Hope would help.

Jerry K

My Feedback: (1)

"I fly off a 600 ft hard surface runway. We stand near the center of the runway while flying which gives me approx 300 ft to stop. Should be more then enough. "

"On final I have been closing the throttle, but I am using the entire 300 ft to stop and if it weren't for my brakes about 1/2 the time I would go off the far end of the runway. "


I don't understand, where is the other 300 feet of your runway. I think there is a saying, runway behind you is useless. How about touching down at the end(begining) of the runway then you will have 300-400-500 feet. You don't see airline pilots touching down at the middle of the airport then complaining about the runway being to short!!!

tucson

My Feedback: (1)

"I don't understand, where is the other 300 feet of your runway. I think there is a saying, runway behind you is useless. How about touching down at the end(begining) of the runway then you will have 300-400-500 feet. You don't see airline pilots touching down at the middle of the airport then complaining about the runway being to short!!!"


Hi Jerry,

The way the field is set up we stand somewhere near the center of the runway.

By landing at the very beginning of the runway you are right there would be enough remaining runway. But my point is I would like to be able to land the airplane comfortably in 300 ft. I would like to able to slow the plane down within the remaining 300 ft.

Stan

Jerry K

My Feedback: (1)

Stan

"The way the field is set up we stand somewhere near the center of the runway."

Most fields are like that.

You should be able to land in 300 feet with practice as everybody has pointed out by bringing it in nose high. My flash will land in that distance without any problems. (And I only use 20-30 degrees of flap)

It appears as though you like to touch down where you stand on the runway by your description, but something else you need to practice is landing on the end of the runway so you are not in crisis mode on every landing. Just an observation. Refer back to my airline scenerio.

gooseF22

This is the most important thing said here... master Jack...well said.. one simple thing helped me alot..must see belly..

seflyer

My Feedback: (12)

I have around 70 flights on my Flash now and used the flap setting in the manual, no issues with getting it slowed, typically on my gear pass with half flaps when switching to full flaps requires power to be added. never noticed any elevator fade. our runway is 660 and rarely use more than 300 even on a long roll out. the Flash will slow very well with no bad habits. I usually shoot for the first taxi way and turn off on the last.

Kevin