Stall Recovery
06-03-2011, 10:57 AM
#1
Stall Recovery
I find this hard to believe, but read it yourself. Not only we train on stall recovery on our toy jets, but for full scale you'd have to do it for countless hours.
This is some very scary reading. I cant imagine descending at 11,000 ft/min, STALLED!
I wouldn't doubt it if there was more to the story.
Regards,
David
BEA Publishes Note Regarding Speculation on AF447 Crash
[Update - Podcast with an A330 type rating instructor discussing the BEA AF447 information]
Update: MSNBC has a three minute video with two former NTSB investigators discussing the accident.
Citing inaccuracies and errors in media reports on the crash of AF447 off the coast of Brazil, the Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses pour la Sécurité de l’aviation civile in charge of the investigation released a note on the crash this afternoon.
Their note covers the preliminary results from the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder for the ill-fated Airbus A330-203 registered F-GZCP that departed Rio for Paris on 31 May 2009 with 12 crew members and 216 passengers on board that crashed in the South Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Brazil.
As many have suspected, the aircraft stalled. Their findings were summarizes as follows:
▷ The composition of the crew was in accordance with the operator’s procedures
â–· At the time of the event, the weight and balance of the airplane were within the operational limits
â–· At the time of the event, the two co-pilots were seated in the cockpit and the Captain was resting. The latter returned to the cockpit about 1 min 30 after the disengagement of the autopilot
â–· There was an inconsistency between the speeds displayed on the left side and the integrated standby instrument system (ISIS). This lasted for less than one minute.
â–· After the autopilot disengagement:
â—¦ The airplane climbed to 38,000 ft.
â—¦ The stall warning was triggered and the airplane stalled
â—¦ The inputs made by the PF were mainly nose-up
â—¦ The descent lasted 3 min 30, during which the airplane remained stalled. The angle of attack increased and remained above 35 degrees
â—¦ The engines were operating and always responded to crew commands.
â–· The last recorded values were a pitch attitude of 16.2 degrees nose-up, a roll angle of 5.3 degrees left, and a vertical speed of -10,912 ft/min.
These results clearly indicate that the aircraft went into a stall, and the nose-up, rather than nose down inputs that are required for stall recovery, were incorrect, exacerbating the problem and resulting in a loss of control of the aircraft.
This is some very scary reading. I cant imagine descending at 11,000 ft/min, STALLED!
I wouldn't doubt it if there was more to the story.
Regards,
David
BEA Publishes Note Regarding Speculation on AF447 Crash
[Update - Podcast with an A330 type rating instructor discussing the BEA AF447 information]
Update: MSNBC has a three minute video with two former NTSB investigators discussing the accident.
Citing inaccuracies and errors in media reports on the crash of AF447 off the coast of Brazil, the Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses pour la Sécurité de l’aviation civile in charge of the investigation released a note on the crash this afternoon.
Their note covers the preliminary results from the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder for the ill-fated Airbus A330-203 registered F-GZCP that departed Rio for Paris on 31 May 2009 with 12 crew members and 216 passengers on board that crashed in the South Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Brazil.
As many have suspected, the aircraft stalled. Their findings were summarizes as follows:
▷ The composition of the crew was in accordance with the operator’s procedures
â–· At the time of the event, the weight and balance of the airplane were within the operational limits
â–· At the time of the event, the two co-pilots were seated in the cockpit and the Captain was resting. The latter returned to the cockpit about 1 min 30 after the disengagement of the autopilot
â–· There was an inconsistency between the speeds displayed on the left side and the integrated standby instrument system (ISIS). This lasted for less than one minute.
â–· After the autopilot disengagement:
â—¦ The airplane climbed to 38,000 ft.
â—¦ The stall warning was triggered and the airplane stalled
â—¦ The inputs made by the PF were mainly nose-up
â—¦ The descent lasted 3 min 30, during which the airplane remained stalled. The angle of attack increased and remained above 35 degrees
â—¦ The engines were operating and always responded to crew commands.
â–· The last recorded values were a pitch attitude of 16.2 degrees nose-up, a roll angle of 5.3 degrees left, and a vertical speed of -10,912 ft/min.
These results clearly indicate that the aircraft went into a stall, and the nose-up, rather than nose down inputs that are required for stall recovery, were incorrect, exacerbating the problem and resulting in a loss of control of the aircraft.
06-03-2011, 11:12 AM
#2
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RE: Stall Recovery
From a former Airbus pilot at work
Stall Recoveries
A long time ago, the Flight Standardization Board and its European equivalent determined that stalls and steep turns do not need to be trained in the Airbus. I guess the assumption was that the flight control laws – in normal law, anyway, make it unlikely that the aircraft will stall or remain in a steep bank condition. At the time I was involved with Airbus training, the curriculum included a minimal exposure to these maneuvers anyway. However, these were restricted to the initial training curriculum and did not appear in recurrent training. As far as the stalls were concerned, it was necessary to press a few buttons on the overhead to place the aircraft in a degraded flight control law before the maneuver could be carried out.
Other Recoveries
An interesting characteristic of the Airbus flight control laws is that a maximum performance recovery from a number of bad situations – wind shear, terrain hazard, even stall can be effected in normal law by placing the side stick against the aft stop. When this is done, the flight control system provides 2.5g or the maximum (non-stall) angle of attack, whichever is less, the spoilers retract and maximum thrust is selected. In my experience, Airbus were sure to point out this feature of the aircraft. Of course, the published procedures called for a little more action than that, including manually advancing the thrust levers, which gets you maximum thrust a bit sooner than waiting for the automation to respond. But the message seemed clear to me. If you get into trouble, you need to pull the side stick all the way back. Of course, this hold true for normal law operation and may not work in alternate law and certainly not in direct law.
Stall Recoveries
A long time ago, the Flight Standardization Board and its European equivalent determined that stalls and steep turns do not need to be trained in the Airbus. I guess the assumption was that the flight control laws – in normal law, anyway, make it unlikely that the aircraft will stall or remain in a steep bank condition. At the time I was involved with Airbus training, the curriculum included a minimal exposure to these maneuvers anyway. However, these were restricted to the initial training curriculum and did not appear in recurrent training. As far as the stalls were concerned, it was necessary to press a few buttons on the overhead to place the aircraft in a degraded flight control law before the maneuver could be carried out.
Other Recoveries
An interesting characteristic of the Airbus flight control laws is that a maximum performance recovery from a number of bad situations – wind shear, terrain hazard, even stall can be effected in normal law by placing the side stick against the aft stop. When this is done, the flight control system provides 2.5g or the maximum (non-stall) angle of attack, whichever is less, the spoilers retract and maximum thrust is selected. In my experience, Airbus were sure to point out this feature of the aircraft. Of course, the published procedures called for a little more action than that, including manually advancing the thrust levers, which gets you maximum thrust a bit sooner than waiting for the automation to respond. But the message seemed clear to me. If you get into trouble, you need to pull the side stick all the way back. Of course, this hold true for normal law operation and may not work in alternate law and certainly not in direct law.
06-03-2011, 11:23 AM
#3
RE: Stall Recovery
talk about natural law of reasoning working against you! Maybe these guys were trapped in making the recovery decisions half way down. Thanks for the input Joe.
Proves my point that Aribuses are flying FMS's. You fly the FMS, forget the yoke......not like there is one anyway.
Proves my point that Aribuses are flying FMS's. You fly the FMS, forget the yoke......not like there is one anyway.
06-03-2011, 11:50 AM
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RE: Stall Recovery
if you are on board a stalling aircraft is it that had to tell if you are slow and stalling? you must be able to tell if you are nose up or down, slow or fast or am i missing somthing?
06-03-2011, 11:57 AM
#5
RE: Stall Recovery
ORIGINAL: bluescoobydoo
if you are on board a stalling aircraft is it that had to tell if you are slow and stalling? you must be able to tell if you are nose up or down, slow or fast or am i missing somthing?
if you are on board a stalling aircraft is it that had to tell if you are slow and stalling? you must be able to tell if you are nose up or down, slow or fast or am i missing somthing?
At night / low light, over the ocean, At altitude and with In-accurate airspeed information... damn near impossible. Its not like flying low over a land mass where you can sort of tell how fast you are going.
I to wouldn't be surprised if their was more to story than just a stall.
06-03-2011, 11:58 AM
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RE: Stall Recovery
I'm interested to read about Airbus saying stall training is not required. In an Airbus, is there any way the tailplane stall, such that elevator movement has no effect? If so, this is the only thing that may excuse the failure to recover from the stall. Every aircraft I ever flew recovered from a stall in pretty much the same way - unload the wing, apply full power and roll the wings level. Just hauling back on the stick and hoping for automatics to save your ***** seems a cr@p idea to me. So many of the modern aircraft accidents, the last thing you hear the flying pilot say is 'What is it doing now?'. For me, when it all goes wrong, disconnect the automatics and hand fly the aircraft - that's why they put pilots in the aircraft. If the auto's could do everything, we would be out of work!
Edited to say: As long as the pilots have attitude information and an indication of the thrust setting, they should be able to fly the aircraft - low light/altitude/over the sea has nothing to do with it.
Edited to say: As long as the pilots have attitude information and an indication of the thrust setting, they should be able to fly the aircraft - low light/altitude/over the sea has nothing to do with it.
06-03-2011, 12:02 PM
#7
RE: Stall Recovery
Boy, those Airbus's sure got their act togeather !!!!! Ain't rode on one, Ain't gonna ride on one !!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGHVnIxNUIw
Danno
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGHVnIxNUIw
Danno
06-03-2011, 12:06 PM
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RE: Stall Recovery
Joe,
Thanks for the input. I know nothing about Airbus, my full scale experience is Navy fighters, but based on that training on how to recover from a stall/departure (reduce AOA, add power, wings level, etc) it would be very difficult for me to trust an autopilot 'law' and pull full aft yoke, then wait for the magic to happen. And, even if they did try this, how in the world could they sit there from 38,000' to the water waiting for the autopilot to fix the problem? I'm not questioning you, just am incredulous that a 'trained' pilot could do that to himself and 230+ other folks.
Regards,
Gus
Thanks for the input. I know nothing about Airbus, my full scale experience is Navy fighters, but based on that training on how to recover from a stall/departure (reduce AOA, add power, wings level, etc) it would be very difficult for me to trust an autopilot 'law' and pull full aft yoke, then wait for the magic to happen. And, even if they did try this, how in the world could they sit there from 38,000' to the water waiting for the autopilot to fix the problem? I'm not questioning you, just am incredulous that a 'trained' pilot could do that to himself and 230+ other folks.
Regards,
Gus
06-03-2011, 12:26 PM
#9
RE: Stall Recovery
How many of you guys have stalled an airbus? Boeing? I have. Doesnt matter if it is an Airbus or a Boeing or whatever else...if you pull the yoke/stick or whatever back and hold it you are not going to recover from a stall. Maybe that's why I see so many models auger in with the pilot yelling "I dont have it" while they are pulling on the stick. I've got 8000 hrs on the bus and it is a great airplane but it is not pilot proof. I have stalled a 737 several times and to recover I just released the yoke, let the nose drop and it resumed flying. To recover the bus you need to put the stick in the "corner" ...roll while pushing on the stick. Dont confuse poor procedural knowledge or technique with a bad jet. The Airbus is a good jet as is the Boeings.
06-03-2011, 12:45 PM
#10
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RE: Stall Recovery
So my old airplane didnt have any control laws (EMB-145, cholestol of the airways). we were trained in the sim to lose the minimum amount of altitude. if you lost more than 300 feet on a stall recovery, most instrutors woudl give you an UNSAT and you would retrain or......(old rules there were if you UNSAT'd a PC, you could do it again. two UNSAT for any reason (including until just recently not completing all manuevers within the two hour block) you had tw choices, a "career decision day (quit) or try it again and if you UNSAT'd, then you were fired-no such thing as training to proficency.
but that was my old plane, i am more interested in hearing what a "Bus guy has to say about the automation.
tp777, did your 'Bus traiing have you go to Natural Law as part of a EP? i have to get hold of my USAir (West) buddy, but i recall him telling me that they didnt do any Natural Law flying except during initial.
and i am not critisizing any airplane-just thought it was intersting that the press stories talk about the pilot pulling the sidestick controller (or whatever the correct name is) which seemed weird if you were stalling but if the EP says to do that then i can imagine the confusion.
while we all trained for the realistic distractions during emergencies, having the EICAS light up with multiple warnings and cautions while handling the emergency was not fun when it happened in the real world-getting "anti-ice assemetry during an approach in icing while also getting "anti-ice low capacity" and a host of other caution messages, and Master Warning and Master Cautiion Aural alerts just made a high workload situation even moreso. i remember my post flight-finding one wing leading edge clean while the other had ice on it was kind of disturbing on a hard wing swept wing plane.
ok, enough of "there i was", lets here more from some "Bus drivers!
but that was my old plane, i am more interested in hearing what a "Bus guy has to say about the automation.
tp777, did your 'Bus traiing have you go to Natural Law as part of a EP? i have to get hold of my USAir (West) buddy, but i recall him telling me that they didnt do any Natural Law flying except during initial.
and i am not critisizing any airplane-just thought it was intersting that the press stories talk about the pilot pulling the sidestick controller (or whatever the correct name is) which seemed weird if you were stalling but if the EP says to do that then i can imagine the confusion.
while we all trained for the realistic distractions during emergencies, having the EICAS light up with multiple warnings and cautions while handling the emergency was not fun when it happened in the real world-getting "anti-ice assemetry during an approach in icing while also getting "anti-ice low capacity" and a host of other caution messages, and Master Warning and Master Cautiion Aural alerts just made a high workload situation even moreso. i remember my post flight-finding one wing leading edge clean while the other had ice on it was kind of disturbing on a hard wing swept wing plane.
ok, enough of "there i was", lets here more from some "Bus drivers!
06-03-2011, 03:20 PM
#11
RE: Stall Recovery
Never believe anything the press says about an airplane. I have dealt first hand with the media and was shocked at the lack of facts and excess bull crap they offer. They look for ratings not truth. I was the AF press spokesman for the crash that killed ron brown in crotia several years ago. I know what i said and i saw what they reported, sometimes not even close. So with that said i would be leary of the press experts saying what happened.
06-03-2011, 03:54 PM
#12
RE: Stall Recovery
Tom,
Being you're a 777f/o,and live in Texas,I'm guessing "the bus" you flew was a 300/310 series,which had very different automation than the 320/330/340 series.I only have 5000 hours in the 320,but I can tell you that in normal law,if the automation detects an overspeed condition,it will pull the nose up.Conversely,if it detects an impending stall, it will lower the nose.It is quite possible that there were multiple erroneous airspeed indication scenarios as a result of pitot icing,complicating the situation immensely.There was an emegency ad concerning pitot heat on the 330 immediately following this tragic accident,and my company had special procedures via flight crew bulletins until the mods were made.I'm sure there is much more to the story.
I'm not a fan of anything French,and prefer Boeing/MD equipment over airbus by far,but can't agree with throwing this crew under the bus,with the limited information available to us.There but for the grace of God go I.Most of the other posters here have little clue what they're posting about in this case,basing their assumptions on their experience flying model jets.God bless the victims of this tragedy,and their families.
Erik
Being you're a 777f/o,and live in Texas,I'm guessing "the bus" you flew was a 300/310 series,which had very different automation than the 320/330/340 series.I only have 5000 hours in the 320,but I can tell you that in normal law,if the automation detects an overspeed condition,it will pull the nose up.Conversely,if it detects an impending stall, it will lower the nose.It is quite possible that there were multiple erroneous airspeed indication scenarios as a result of pitot icing,complicating the situation immensely.There was an emegency ad concerning pitot heat on the 330 immediately following this tragic accident,and my company had special procedures via flight crew bulletins until the mods were made.I'm sure there is much more to the story.
I'm not a fan of anything French,and prefer Boeing/MD equipment over airbus by far,but can't agree with throwing this crew under the bus,with the limited information available to us.There but for the grace of God go I.Most of the other posters here have little clue what they're posting about in this case,basing their assumptions on their experience flying model jets.God bless the victims of this tragedy,and their families.
Erik
06-03-2011, 04:01 PM
#13
RE: Stall Recovery
Joe,
There is no "natural law". There is normal law,alternate law,direct law,and a type of emergency law that lets you recover from unusual attitudes.Normal is just that,alternate is degraded,with some levels of overspeed,overbank,and stall protection,and direct has no protections,and is the most degraded law.I haven't seen anything discussing what indications they were receiving,and what if any level of degredation there was.
Erik
There is no "natural law". There is normal law,alternate law,direct law,and a type of emergency law that lets you recover from unusual attitudes.Normal is just that,alternate is degraded,with some levels of overspeed,overbank,and stall protection,and direct has no protections,and is the most degraded law.I haven't seen anything discussing what indications they were receiving,and what if any level of degredation there was.
Erik
06-03-2011, 04:37 PM
#15
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RE: Stall Recovery
Having absolutely zero knowledge of the incident, it does seem strange to me as well that they rode it from 390 to 0 like that, assuming what's being reported is accurate.
Tom, I'm curious why you'd WANT to initiate or command a roll input for a stall recovery? Is there no provision on the 'bus for the PIC to tell the FMS to do what he/she says regardless of what IT thinks is correct?
Tom, I'm curious why you'd WANT to initiate or command a roll input for a stall recovery? Is there no provision on the 'bus for the PIC to tell the FMS to do what he/she says regardless of what IT thinks is correct?
06-03-2011, 04:47 PM
#16
RE: Stall Recovery
Erik,
I have done the "airspeed unreliable" drill in the 737-800 when they simulate having the pitot tubes cleaned off the jet. We were taught to fly the AOA gauge and to ignore both the overspeed warning horn and the stick shaker...which were both going off at the same time. It was a pain in the arse even on a day visual...it would really be tough to do at night on in the middle of the ocean.
I think most of the folks here (non heavy drivers) just don't have a clue about high altitude swept wing jet aerodynamics and that is causing some misconceptions about stall recoveries. As my first sim-P in the 767-300ER said one evening when we were doing high altitude jet upset training "this ain't your Pappy's 172 kid and we ain't at 3,000'...the jet is real heavy, your have lost most of your airspeed, the air is thin and the engines ain't putting out crap and you have them firewalled...you have everything working against you so get the nose down, lay off of the ailerons (so you don't deploy any spoiler panels) and just wait wait wait for the jet to recover".
Beave
I have done the "airspeed unreliable" drill in the 737-800 when they simulate having the pitot tubes cleaned off the jet. We were taught to fly the AOA gauge and to ignore both the overspeed warning horn and the stick shaker...which were both going off at the same time. It was a pain in the arse even on a day visual...it would really be tough to do at night on in the middle of the ocean.
I think most of the folks here (non heavy drivers) just don't have a clue about high altitude swept wing jet aerodynamics and that is causing some misconceptions about stall recoveries. As my first sim-P in the 767-300ER said one evening when we were doing high altitude jet upset training "this ain't your Pappy's 172 kid and we ain't at 3,000'...the jet is real heavy, your have lost most of your airspeed, the air is thin and the engines ain't putting out crap and you have them firewalled...you have everything working against you so get the nose down, lay off of the ailerons (so you don't deploy any spoiler panels) and just wait wait wait for the jet to recover".
Beave
06-03-2011, 05:37 PM
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RE: Stall Recovery
ORIGINAL: JoeEagle
From a former Airbus pilot at work
Stall Recoveries
A long time ago, the Flight Standardization Board and its European equivalent determined that stalls and steep turns do not need to be trained in the Airbus.
From a former Airbus pilot at work
Stall Recoveries
A long time ago, the Flight Standardization Board and its European equivalent determined that stalls and steep turns do not need to be trained in the Airbus.
George
06-03-2011, 06:04 PM
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RE: Stall Recovery
some 45 years ago a 727 dead heading from nyc to buffalo over rockland county ran into ice ad about 30 feet. the pito heat was not on,,,this upset the altineter and speed readings. the plane staled,,at the last second the mistake of pulling tyhe nose upo when the dials indicated a dive,,it was to late. a 727 neaded 8 miles to recover. i heard the hugh boom when it hit . under full insterm,ent rules it can be very hard to tell what the aircraft is doing ,,,after neasr 800 hours of flyiing stermans ,,howard dga howards ,,,cubs and cessnas i nevr had any desire to fly ifr. ,,,,if you havent been there you have no idea how easey it iss to loose control. young kennedey found out all about spacial disorentation jusd before he slamed into block island sound. stall recovery in those big birds is in miles,,,not feet. a f4-u corsair putt into a stright down attitude from 6000 feet can not racover,,,it will fly into the earth under it. i call the air bus stuff,,,air junk,,,hehe
06-03-2011, 06:14 PM
#20
RE: Stall Recovery
ORIGINAL: fred985
some 45 years ago a 727 dead heading from nyc to buffalo over rockland county ran into ice ad about 30 feet. the pito heat was not on,,,this upset the altineter and speed readings. the plane staled,,at the last second the mistake of pulling tyhe nose upo when the dials indicated a dive,,it was to late. a 727 neaded 8 miles to recover. i heard the hugh boom when it hit . under full insterm,ent rules it can be very hard to tell what the aircraft is doing ,,,after neasr 800 hours of flyiing stermans ,,howard dga howards ,,,cubs and cessnas i nevr had any desire to fly ifr. ,,,,if you havent been there you have no idea how easey it iss to loose control. young kennedey found out all about spacial disorentation jusd before he slamed into block island sound. stall recovery in those big birds is in miles,,,not feet. a f4-u corsair putt into a stright down attitude from 6000 feet can not racover,,,it will fly into the earth under it. i call the air bus stuff,,,air junk,,,hehe
some 45 years ago a 727 dead heading from nyc to buffalo over rockland county ran into ice ad about 30 feet. the pito heat was not on,,,this upset the altineter and speed readings. the plane staled,,at the last second the mistake of pulling tyhe nose upo when the dials indicated a dive,,it was to late. a 727 neaded 8 miles to recover. i heard the hugh boom when it hit . under full insterm,ent rules it can be very hard to tell what the aircraft is doing ,,,after neasr 800 hours of flyiing stermans ,,howard dga howards ,,,cubs and cessnas i nevr had any desire to fly ifr. ,,,,if you havent been there you have no idea how easey it iss to loose control. young kennedey found out all about spacial disorentation jusd before he slamed into block island sound. stall recovery in those big birds is in miles,,,not feet. a f4-u corsair putt into a stright down attitude from 6000 feet can not racover,,,it will fly into the earth under it. i call the air bus stuff,,,air junk,,,hehe
06-03-2011, 06:52 PM
#23
RE: Stall Recovery
ORIGINAL: Erik R
Wow.Just wow.
ORIGINAL: fred985
some 45 years ago a 727 dead heading from nyc to buffalo over rockland county ran into ice ad about 30 feet. the pito heat was not on,,,this upset the altineter and speed readings. the plane staled,,at the last second the mistake of pulling tyhe nose upo when the dials indicated a dive,,it was to late. a 727 neaded 8 miles to recover. i heard the hugh boom when it hit . under full insterm,ent rules it can be very hard to tell what the aircraft is doing ,,,after neasr 800 hours of flyiing stermans ,,howard dga howards ,,,cubs and cessnas i nevr had any desire to fly ifr. ,,,,if you havent been there you have no idea how easey it iss to loose control. young kennedey found out all about spacial disorentation jusd before he slamed into block island sound. stall recovery in those big birds is in miles,,,not feet. a f4-u corsair putt into a stright down attitude from 6000 feet can not racover,,,it will fly into the earth under it. i call the air bus stuff,,,air junk,,,hehe
some 45 years ago a 727 dead heading from nyc to buffalo over rockland county ran into ice ad about 30 feet. the pito heat was not on,,,this upset the altineter and speed readings. the plane staled,,at the last second the mistake of pulling tyhe nose upo when the dials indicated a dive,,it was to late. a 727 neaded 8 miles to recover. i heard the hugh boom when it hit . under full insterm,ent rules it can be very hard to tell what the aircraft is doing ,,,after neasr 800 hours of flyiing stermans ,,howard dga howards ,,,cubs and cessnas i nevr had any desire to fly ifr. ,,,,if you havent been there you have no idea how easey it iss to loose control. young kennedey found out all about spacial disorentation jusd before he slamed into block island sound. stall recovery in those big birds is in miles,,,not feet. a f4-u corsair putt into a stright down attitude from 6000 feet can not racover,,,it will fly into the earth under it. i call the air bus stuff,,,air junk,,,hehe
He's got a little bit of everything going on in that post.
+1 on the WOW factor.
06-03-2011, 07:04 PM
#24
RE: Stall Recovery
ORIGINAL: fred985
some 45 years ago a 727 dead heading from nyc to buffalo over rockland county ran into ice ad about 30 feet. the pito heat was not on,,,this upset the altineter and speed readings. the plane staled,,at the last second the mistake of pulling tyhe nose upo when the dials indicated a dive,,it was to late. a 727 neaded 8 miles to recover. i heard the hugh boom when it hit . under full insterm,ent rules it can be very hard to tell what the aircraft is doing ,,,after neasr 800 hours of flyiing stermans ,,howard dga howards ,,,cubs and cessnas i nevr had any desire to fly ifr. ,,,,if you havent been there you have no idea how easey it iss to loose control. young kennedey found out all about spacial disorentation jusd before he slamed into block island sound. stall recovery in those big birds is in miles,,,not feet. a f4-u corsair putt into a stright down attitude from 6000 feet can not racover,,,it will fly into the earth under it. i call the air bus stuff,,,air junk,,,hehe
some 45 years ago a 727 dead heading from nyc to buffalo over rockland county ran into ice ad about 30 feet. the pito heat was not on,,,this upset the altineter and speed readings. the plane staled,,at the last second the mistake of pulling tyhe nose upo when the dials indicated a dive,,it was to late. a 727 neaded 8 miles to recover. i heard the hugh boom when it hit . under full insterm,ent rules it can be very hard to tell what the aircraft is doing ,,,after neasr 800 hours of flyiing stermans ,,howard dga howards ,,,cubs and cessnas i nevr had any desire to fly ifr. ,,,,if you havent been there you have no idea how easey it iss to loose control. young kennedey found out all about spacial disorentation jusd before he slamed into block island sound. stall recovery in those big birds is in miles,,,not feet. a f4-u corsair putt into a stright down attitude from 6000 feet can not racover,,,it will fly into the earth under it. i call the air bus stuff,,,air junk,,,hehe
06-03-2011, 07:16 PM
#25
RE: Stall Recovery
ORIGINAL: FILE IFR
He's got a little bit of everything going on in that post.
+1 on the WOW factor.
ORIGINAL: Erik R
Wow.Just wow.
ORIGINAL: fred985
some 45 years ago a 727 dead heading from nyc to buffalo over rockland county ran into ice ad about 30 feet. the pito heat was not on,,,this upset the altineter and speed readings. the plane staled,,at the last second the mistake of pulling tyhe nose upo when the dials indicated a dive,,it was to late. a 727 neaded 8 miles to recover. i heard the hugh boom when it hit . under full insterm,ent rules it can be very hard to tell what the aircraft is doing ,,,after neasr 800 hours of flyiing stermans ,,howard dga howards ,,,cubs and cessnas i nevr had any desire to fly ifr. ,,,,if you havent been there you have no idea how easey it iss to loose control. young kennedey found out all about spacial disorentation jusd before he slamed into block island sound. stall recovery in those big birds is in miles,,,not feet. a f4-u corsair putt into a stright down attitude from 6000 feet can not racover,,,it will fly into the earth under it. i call the air bus stuff,,,air junk,,,hehe
some 45 years ago a 727 dead heading from nyc to buffalo over rockland county ran into ice ad about 30 feet. the pito heat was not on,,,this upset the altineter and speed readings. the plane staled,,at the last second the mistake of pulling tyhe nose upo when the dials indicated a dive,,it was to late. a 727 neaded 8 miles to recover. i heard the hugh boom when it hit . under full insterm,ent rules it can be very hard to tell what the aircraft is doing ,,,after neasr 800 hours of flyiing stermans ,,howard dga howards ,,,cubs and cessnas i nevr had any desire to fly ifr. ,,,,if you havent been there you have no idea how easey it iss to loose control. young kennedey found out all about spacial disorentation jusd before he slamed into block island sound. stall recovery in those big birds is in miles,,,not feet. a f4-u corsair putt into a stright down attitude from 6000 feet can not racover,,,it will fly into the earth under it. i call the air bus stuff,,,air junk,,,hehe
He's got a little bit of everything going on in that post.
+1 on the WOW factor.
I see your +1 WOW Factor and raise you an OMG !!!!!
And one " Are you serious " !!!!Danno