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Maj. Woody's X-Treme Jets F-4C Phantom

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Old 04-09-2018, 06:41 AM
  #1101  
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Originally Posted by dionysusbacchus View Post
Thanks Jeff! Can't wait to see your F-4G!

You are correct about the spar, but it's nothing more than a strip of 1/6" balsa and it ends just aft of the light location. All I needed to do what twist a drill bit a few times to make a hole right at the tip of the wing. Then I threaded a small wire through with a loop on the end holding my light wire. It comes out at the back of the aileron, next just make a small hole in the servo box (thin balsa) and that's it.

I've put thousands of lights on Christmas trees, so I consider myself a light expert as well.
Nice!

Originally Posted by dionysusbacchus View Post
Next I'm vacuum forming some clear plastic lens pieces. Easy to do by hand with a heat gun and a crude balsa form.

So, for those considering lights, it's easy to do and looks great, but the looks great part is just my opinion, everybody has an opinion, as we know.

My plane is for sport flying, so I can put light where I want, and I encourage other to do the same, trust me, no one will care!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anQDpnwYIhY
That's good information on getting the wire to the tip light - clearly I had not messed with it much as

for me, just having nav. lights (no strobes) on a jet isn't worth the effort. That's why on my F-4, I spent the extra effort on the drag chute, tail hook, and external stores...

As I said, YMMV...

Bob



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Old 04-09-2018, 07:18 AM
  #1102  
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[/QUOTE]
Bob,

The tail hook looks great. I have been following the Freewing F4 Phantom thread on Hobbysquawk and RC Groups and there is member RCJetGuy who has a slick drogue chute setup. I might try and incorporate his ideas in mine if there is room.

Image: https://www.hobbysquawk.com/filedata...2&d=1523154674
Link:
Link:

Jeff
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Old 04-09-2018, 07:27 AM
  #1103  
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Originally Posted by F16Jeff View Post
Bob,

The tail hook looks great. I have been following the Freewing F4 Phantom thread on Hobbysquawk and RC Groups and there is member RCJetGuy who has a slick drogue chute setup. I might try and incorporate his ideas in mine if there is room.

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Link: https://youtu.be/8UWxekzVVqE

Jeff
From the picture at the beginning of the video, I thought he was going to fly that thing in his neighborhood!

My chute door is side-hinged, and the deployment is pneumatic. I used the setup from Details4Scale for the BVM F-4. I had to make a custom tube and modify the plunger to fit as the space is a bit smaller than on the BVM F-4, but it works well.

Bob

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Old 04-09-2018, 09:53 AM
  #1104  
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Originally Posted by rhklenke View Post
From the picture at the beginning of the video, I thought he was going to fly that thing in his neighborhood!

My chute door is side-hinged, and the deployment is pneumatic. I used the setup from Details4Scale for the BVM F-4. I had to make a custom tube and modify the plunger to fit as the space is a bit smaller than on the BVM F-4, but it works well.

Bob
I like the side hinge and being pneumatic would seem simpler to install. What chute size did you use and where did you get it?

Thank you,

Jeff
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Old 04-09-2018, 10:34 AM
  #1105  
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Originally Posted by F16Jeff View Post
I like the side hinge and being pneumatic would seem simpler to install. What chute size did you use and where did you get it?

Thank you,

Jeff
Jeff,

I got the entire system from Details4Scale - the BVM F-4 chute system:

https://www.details4scale.com/produc...4-chute-system

I'm not sure if it was $345 when I bought it, but the chute itself (from Details4Scale) is $175, so an additional $170 for the other stuff might not be worth it. You could use an Ultra Precision 4" air cylinder (https://www.dreamworksrc.com/ultra-p...-7-16-x-4.html) to eject the chute and make the cylinder and plunger yourself. That would save a few dollars.

I did a spring-loaded ejection system on my CARF Euro, and its not as positive an ejection as the air-operated method. Getting enough spring tension to reliably eject the chute while at the same time, being able to hold it back and reliably trigger it is a bit of a trick. An air-operated plunger is fast, easy to trigger, and develops a lot of force.

Bob
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Old 04-09-2018, 03:23 PM
  #1106  
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Tail hook was easy, dirty pass with hook down was a must. I'm working on the plugs for a complete rack and ordinance system. Only thing I'm on the fence with is the drag chute, maybe down the road, it can wait.

I got my decals, turns out they are not 1/9 scale as advertised, I'm going to have to give detailed measurements of all decals needed and order again. Good news is my nose art turned out great.




Got another flight on the plane Sunday, I was wondering from those that have flown it, does it need any aileron differential? I know the BVM F-4 needs aileron differential, I'm not happy with the tracking in the turns. Elevator still seems a little sensitive with 40% expo and I needed to increase the aileron throw from what is recommended to have a decent roll rate. I know it takes some flight time to get a plane dialed in, it just seems that maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 04-09-2018, 05:56 PM
  #1107  
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Originally Posted by dionysusbacchus View Post
Tail hook was easy, dirty pass with hook down was a must. I'm working on the plugs for a complete rack and ordinance system. Only thing I'm on the fence with is the drag chute, maybe down the road, it can wait.

I got my decals, turns out they are not 1/9 scale as advertised, I'm going to have to give detailed measurements of all decals needed and order again. Good news is my nose art turned out great.

Got another flight on the plane Sunday, I was wondering from those that have flown it, does it need any aileron differential? I know the BVM F-4 needs aileron differential, I'm not happy with the tracking in the turns. Elevator still seems a little sensitive with 40% expo and I needed to increase the aileron throw from what is recommended to have a decent roll rate. I know it takes some flight time to get a plane dialed in, it just seems that maybe I'm missing something.
The F-4 is listed as 63' in length (not sure if that's the long or short nose) and the model is 75". That puts the scale around 1/9.5 or 1/10, depending on whether or not 63' is the long or short nose. Maybe that's why the decals at 1/9th didn't match? I did mine through Callie and I was able to give her a decal sheet matched to a 3-view which she blew up to the size of my short nose model. The decal sizes aren't an exact match, but its close enough for me at this point.

I had a bit of aileron differential, but not a whole lot. The main thing I noticed was that the aileron response varied greatly based on airspeed. When I was flying off of grass, once it broke ground, I had to use rudder to supplement the ailerons until it accelerated as it was really hard to control roll at slow speeds with just aileron. Once up to speed, the roll rate was fine though. I don't know if increasing aileron differential would help that, but suspect not as it seems to be a function of the ailerons being well inboard and loosing effectiveness at high angles of attack. I could be wrong though - it has happened before...

I'm not sure what throws and expo I had on elevator, I'll have to wait until I can get the radio back in before I can measure and see. I did get it to the point where it was completely satisfying on elevator though, (as opposed to ailerons) so I'd keep adjusting that until it feels good to you.

Bob
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Old 04-09-2018, 06:21 PM
  #1108  
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Toledo RC Show and my F-4 for static display and judging. My B1RD didn't place. Next year when it's all complete.



Originally Posted by dionysusbacchus View Post
You're welcome. Won't be the easiest plane to see, but some fly the all black F-4 at this smaller size no problem.

I have a picture of my elevator servo. Push-rod has no side to side movement, I just stuck some plastic tubing on to make sure I guess. I stiffened up the stock push-rod with some carbon tube.


Your elevator has more space on either side of the fuselage than mine. Also the left elevator is titled down more by about a half inch. So my elevators rub a lot on the sides. Second is there is only one screw for each wing in the front holding it in place. This allows for the trailing edge to slide out a bit on the rod. I believe there should be another tab at the back end also to screw into for a more secure attachment. Any thoughts??
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Old 04-10-2018, 04:57 AM
  #1109  
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Your elevator has more space on either side of the fuselage than mine. Also the left elevator is titled down more by about a half inch. So my elevators rub a lot on the sides. Second is there is only one screw for each wing in the front holding it in place. This allows for the trailing edge to slide out a bit on the rod. I believe there should be another tab at the back end also to screw into for a more secure attachment. Any thoughts??
F-4 looked great at the show!

On the F-4E the tail was perfect (one shown in picture), however on the short nose version I did the stab was 1" lower on one side. That must be fixed, the formers in the rear fuselage that hold the stab were in crooked. I had to shim the back of the ply stab mount and change the angle of the slot it goes into in the front. Not happy but I fixed it and it flies great.

Bob I noticed the aileron sensitivity change right away. I did some slow flight and actually lost aileron control once the nose came up, now that was with 20mm of aileron throw. I increased the movement to 27mm up and down and I actually have reasonable control even at a very high angle of attack. I can do a full up elevator touch down no problem with this plane and still have control, but yes much less aileron sensitivity.

I was asking about the aileron differential because of the yawing or dutch roll in relatively tight turns. BVM calls for aileron differential on their F-4:

I have been flying the Blue Angel F-4 quite a lot lately and have taken the time to analyze and experiment with the C.G. and control travels. I believe that the following changes enhance the general flight characteristics, especially the axial roll.

Aileron differential – accomplish by rotating the servo arm forward about 20 from vertical and putting a slight bend in the 1/16” control rod (about 10) to clear the servo shaft. Measure the aileron travel at the outboard end.

Up aileron = 1.3”
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Size:  78 BytesThis is with the rate switch in the center position.
Down aileron = .9”
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Old 04-10-2018, 06:47 AM
  #1110  
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TColt,

Your plane looks great and you look proud standing there.

I am gathering all my necessities to build mine when it gets here. Still not sure if I just have Skymaster deliver in primer or do a scheme on it. I really like the F4G version and it will require some changes as well as paint. I know I cannot get the same paint here in California which means the paint will not match what Skymaster applies. I have seen where some guys are now using latex paint diluted with distilled water and it is resistant to kerosene. Inexpensive alternative and I could paint it in my garage with easy cleanup.
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Old 04-10-2018, 08:54 AM
  #1111  
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Originally Posted by F16Jeff View Post
TColt,

Your plane looks great and you look proud standing there.

I am gathering all my necessities to build mine when it gets here. Still not sure if I just have Skymaster deliver in primer or do a scheme on it. I really like the F4G version and it will require some changes as well as paint. I know I cannot get the same paint here in California which means the paint will not match what Skymaster applies. I have seen where some guys are now using latex paint diluted with distilled water and it is resistant to kerosene. Inexpensive alternative and I could paint it in my garage with easy cleanup.
Any thoughts on the trailing edge of the wing to hold it in place? Only one screw up front allows the trailing edge to slide in and out on the carbon rod. Nothing back there to hold it in place.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZggWYry3eZfrIzN82
Hope this works as I have the front pilot look where he is taxying.
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Old 04-10-2018, 09:23 AM
  #1112  
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Originally Posted by Tcoltpilot View Post
Any thoughts on the trailing edge of the wing to hold it in place? Only one screw up front allows the trailing edge to slide in and out on the carbon rod. Nothing back there to hold it in place.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZggWYry3eZfrIzN82
Hope this works as I have the front pilot look where he is taxying.
Mine only has the two screws up front and its not been a problem.

Bob
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Old 04-16-2018, 06:55 AM
  #1113  
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Just a quick picture of the painting/marking progress...




Still have the nomenclature and the aft hot section and tail hook to do and then clear coat.

Bob
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:06 AM
  #1114  
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Originally Posted by rhklenke View Post
Just a quick picture of the painting/marking progress...




Still have the nomenclature and the aft hot section and tail hook to do and then clear coat.

Bob
Looks great. Mine is coming along. Sent my tail cone to Marvin at Details 4 Scale so he can make the drag chute mechanism. This way he will have a working model to make it for others who have the same 1/9.5 scale F-4.

Tail cone used hot #11 blade to cut off. Worked great leaving a nice cut.


The open back end to put the chute ejection system when it arrives.

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Old 04-17-2018, 10:52 AM
  #1115  
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Guys,

I was just wondering, is there room to add a smoke tank and pump? I changed up my scheme to the Thunderbirds for visibility and then if I decide to make the modifications for "G" version, then I will paint the Wild Weasel scheme.

Cheers,

Jeff
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Old 04-17-2018, 11:15 AM
  #1116  
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Originally Posted by F16Jeff View Post
Guys,

I was just wondering, is there room to add a smoke tank and pump? I changed up my scheme to the Thunderbirds for visibility and then if I decide to make the modifications for "G" version, then I will paint the Wild Weasel scheme.

Cheers,

Jeff
My airplane was *packed*! There is no room in the nose section (I had to make the cockpits shallower as Dom did to have enough room up there). My turbine stuff is wedged above the intakes, and the fuel tanks surround the front of the turbine beside the intakes. There *might* be some room under the engine mounts, but not a lot. You also have to be concerned with adding additional weight - especially with a 120 class turbine for power.

Bob
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Old 04-17-2018, 04:34 PM
  #1117  
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My KingTech 120 will be here Thursday. Shipping confirmed. Yea
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Old 04-17-2018, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rhklenke View Post
My airplane was *packed*! There is no room in the nose section (I had to make the cockpits shallower as Dom did to have enough room up there). My turbine stuff is wedged above the intakes, and the fuel tanks surround the front of the turbine beside the intakes. There *might* be some room under the engine mounts, but not a lot. You also have to be concerned with adding additional weight - especially with a 120 class turbine for power.

Bob
Bob,
Thank you for the info. I was thinking it might a tight fit. I changed my scheme from Camo to Thunderbirds for visibility and then if I decide to convert to G model, then I will paint the wild weasel scheme. Since the Thunderbirds performed, smoke would be cool. Still trying to decide between k120 or K140. There is still time before my jet arrives.

Jeff
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Old 04-17-2018, 04:45 PM
  #1119  
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Originally Posted by Tcoltpilot View Post
My KingTech 120 will be here Thursday. Shipping confirmed. Yea
Tcolt,

That is great news. I really like what you are doing to your Phantom.
Jeff
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:06 AM
  #1120  
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Originally Posted by F16Jeff View Post
Guys,

I was just wondering, is there room to add a smoke tank and pump? I changed up my scheme to the Thunderbirds for visibility and then if I decide to make the modifications for "G" version, then I will paint the Wild Weasel scheme.

Cheers,

Jeff
The great thing about the forums is the ideas and perspectives you get from others. I like to find ways to make things work, and if I was doing a Thunderbird I would do a smoke system in this plane. Solid smoke on with a 24oz tank will last about 6 minutes, so you can get by with less than half that and still have a great effect.


With a Sullivan Saddle Type tank 11oz you could easily get this to fit where I show it, in fact you could get 2 tanks to fit there. I would go with one, some of the intake would be cut away, but it would not be visible looking into the intake. Also the tank is shaped like the intake and would function the same.

I never had to cut any of the cockpit away and there is plenty of room for a pump just in front of the forward tank. I think mainly due to the excellent components provided with the Kingtech turbines, minimal, very small and easy to install. 11 oz would be plenty for a blast of smoke show center for your entire flight. Also like I said before, with proper energy management a 120 can handle the extra weight, plus the more smoke you do the lighter it gets.

Put smoke on it, if you need help just let me know.
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:31 AM
  #1121  
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Originally Posted by dionysusbacchus View Post
The great thing about the forums is the ideas and perspectives you get from others. I like to find ways to make things work, and if I was doing a Thunderbird I would do a smoke system in this plane. Solid smoke on with a 24oz tank will last about 6 minutes, so you can get by with less than half that and still have a great effect.


With a Sullivan Saddle Type tank 11oz you could easily get this to fit where I show it, in fact you could get 2 tanks to fit there. I would go with one, some of the intake would be cut away, but it would not be visible looking into the intake. Also the tank is shaped like the intake and would function the same.

I never had to cut any of the cockpit away and there is plenty of room for a pump just in front of the forward tank. I think mainly due to the excellent components provided with the Kingtech turbines, minimal, very small and easy to install. 11 oz would be plenty for a blast of smoke show center for your entire flight. Also like I said before, with proper energy management a 120 can handle the extra weight, plus the more smoke you do the lighter it gets.

Put smoke on it, if you need help just let me know.
Tcolt,
Hat does make smoke look possible. I will experiment and see what I can do. Thank you for the assistance and I will certainly look for yours and others help and guidance once i start my build.

Jeff
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:42 AM
  #1122  
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Originally Posted by F16Jeff View Post
Bob,
Thank you for the info. I was thinking it might a tight fit. I changed my scheme from Camo to Thunderbirds for visibility and then if I decide to convert to G model, then I will paint the wild weasel scheme. Since the Thunderbirds performed, smoke would be cool. Still trying to decide between k120 or K140. There is still time before my jet arrives.

Jeff
As I've said before, with lots of flights on mine - many off of grass, I wish I had a light 140 for mine... especially if you're going to add smoke - wherever it can fit.

Bob
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:24 AM
  #1123  
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Originally Posted by dionysusbacchus View Post
The great thing about the forums is the ideas and perspectives you get from others. I like to find ways to make things work, and if I was doing a Thunderbird I would do a smoke system in this plane. Solid smoke on with a 24oz tank will last about 6 minutes, so you can get by with less than half that and still have a great effect.


With a Sullivan Saddle Type tank 11oz you could easily get this to fit where I show it, in fact you could get 2 tanks to fit there. I would go with one, some of the intake would be cut away, but it would not be visible looking into the intake. Also the tank is shaped like the intake and would function the same.

I never had to cut any of the cockpit away and there is plenty of room for a pump just in front of the forward tank. I think mainly due to the excellent components provided with the Kingtech turbines, minimal, very small and easy to install. 11 oz would be plenty for a blast of smoke show center for your entire flight. Also like I said before, with proper energy management a 120 can handle the extra weight, plus the more smoke you do the lighter it gets.

Put smoke on it, if you need help just let me know.
I agree with the above statement. On mine, the area under the cockpit is completely take up by the receiver, batteries, air tanks, and air valves. I did have to raise the cockpit floor so that I had enough room for my receiver and the Smartfly Power Expander. The area you show for the smoke tank is taken up by my turbine electronics. My UAT is on one side of the engine between the motor mounts and the fuse side and my servo for the tail hook is under the motor mount on the other side. Like I said, "packed"...

Smoke would be cool, for sure, but my perspective would be to get the aircraft in the air without too many "extra" features and get some experience with it. Then you can decide if you want to spend the time, effort, weight, and $'s to add the extra features. Its a nice aircraft and I love the way mine flew, but its a bit small for all of the bells and whistles. If you really want a decked-out F-4, the 1/8 or 1/7.5 would be a better platform.

Bob

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Old 04-20-2018, 03:40 PM
  #1124  
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KingTech 120
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Old 04-27-2018, 12:00 PM
  #1125  
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TColt,

Nice turbine! Have you completed the install?
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