David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

I guess I'm just getting cranky in my old age, but, I think I am done with the apparent trend of this hobby regarding purchasing a jet kit. Now , it seems the attitude is, you buy it, then we'll build it and you"ll get it delivered, maybe in 8-12 weeks, if you're lucky.

In the past I have waited as long as a year to get a kit I wanted, but the process was always, put your name on the list and as soon as it's ready to ship, you pay for it and shipment is immediate! This pay and then wait to play process nowadays has, I think, finally turned me off.

How do the rest of you feel aout this?

David S

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

I just did it for an Xtreme Jets F-4, but I was only willing to do that because I have BVM as the dealer. Also, I'm counting on this airplane as a winter project, so I'm not in a hurry to get it.

There are very few companies that I'm personally willing to shell out the dough and then wait for a jet. BVM, GJC, and CARF being the main three that can think of - assuming that they didn't already have them in stock. Most of the others I would not do it.

As far as that manner of doing business is concerned, I think its hard for many companies, especially small ones, to have that much money tied up in an extensive stock.

Bob

Jim Cattanach

The waiting times are now getting ridiculous. At my age, I could be dead while waiting for a jet I had paid megabucks for up front. I have decided to no longer play this game.
I find myself buying more propellor stuff these days. My fleet is now about 50% jet & 50% prop.

Meesh

My Feedback: (135)

David,

In today's economic climate not too many companies like to carry inventory that they hope they can sell. Most of the manufacturers we deal with in this hobby are pretty small businesses and they can't afford to work 8-12 weeks and hope that when it is ready to ship that the customer will pay them. Getting paid up front guarantees that the customer will remain interested in his or her purchase.

Why don't you offer to pay 1/2 up front and the other half at shipment? they might go for it.

Bob

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

That's what BVM asked for on the Xtreme Jets F-4...

Seemed a reasonable way to do it to me - especially since they offer a significant variety of color schemes (or in my case, agreed to do a new one) and they have no real way of knowing who/how many will want each one. Keeping an inventory of kits would be somewhat different because they are all the same - of course who builds kits these days...

Don't forget too, is a small market to begin with... People will put down deposits of millions of $'s and wait for years for a Burger Boat... Its the name of the game in other high-priced (low volume) toys. You just have to be confident in the company (not like Bede)

Bob

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

Bob,

I understand the economics, and the reasons put forth. I just don't like it.

The greatest cost for the mfg is in the initial design and making of the molds and tools though, not in the actual building of each kit. Having a supply of base, unpainted kits In inventory, ready to be painted/finished to customer's order would add very little to their overall cost but would cut the delivery time substantially IMO.

David S

DocYates

My Feedback: (102)

But in David's defense, IF the market is really that small, and the demand is that low, why should it take a company that already has a product ready to go to market 8-12 weeks to produce that product? I too feel it has gotten ridiculous. Some of these manufacturers, and alot of them are the same bunch, operating under different names, can have you waiting up to three months or more to get the product, and then when it arrives, if there is a blemish or damage, you may end up waiting another two months to get a replacement part of accessory that should been in place to begin with.
I too have found myself feeling more and more like a guinea pig. There should be some semblance of inventory for these products if they are able to acutally produce them, have photographs of them, and be able to promise delivery of them.

Nick Yuhasz

My Feedback: (11)

Also, remember the Fei Bao "Sole US distributor fraud" [Wagner Machado and RCJetModels.com] that many of us fell victim to. A portion of the root cause of losses related to those transactions is the insistence of paying the full amount up front then waiting the 8 to 12 PLUS weeks for delivery. After that time period, neither PayPal or your Credit Card issuer will credit your account from not receiving the item! Fei Bao did nothing to help the victims even though it stated on their web site he was the "Sole US distributor". The only recourse was to contact the FBI and our local law enforcement agencies (without much satisfaction).

Not sure what the ultimate answer is - we just need a reasonable solution.....

Nick

David Jackson

My Feedback: (15)

deleted

ianober

My Feedback: (12)

I agree with you Dave, 8-12 weeks is a ridiculous amount of time to wait. I think manufacturers who have been doing this for a while should be able to gauge fairly close the demand based on "pre-interest" in the kit. Say 5 people are interested, ok then, fab up 10 kits. Now you have 5 ready for the next customers all in white gel coat ready to paint, which should take anywhere from a day to 3 days given they have people painting all days of the week. Now if these companies are going to tell me that they don't have the funds to make up 10 kits, well then I am sorry, but you should not be in this business. Once you get down to 2 kits then you make another 3-5, bang, done. With this model you should be able to ship in 2-3 weeks MAX!!! To me this makes the most sense and doesn't seem to cost a lot of money. The plane should not ship till its paid for and the customer should not have to front money to secure a plane. The only time this should be done in my opinion is for a one off model or something "special", not for production planes that any Tom, Dick and Harry can get.

Then again, it is what it is and what else can you do, of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

I think that a more acceptable business model would be as follows:

1. Base white kit no extras = almost immediate delivery

2. Painted in one of standard color schemes no extras = 1-2 weeks to ship

3. Painted standard scheme with install extras = 2-3 weeks to ship

4. Custom paint with all extras 4-6 weeks to ship

I simply cannot, in my mind, justify 8-12 weeks from point of order to deliver a fiberglass kit where molds and tools are already in place, landing gear designed and mfg etc. I know I must be either missing something or, as I said before, I'm just getting cranky

David S

Billy

My Feedback: (15)

Unless it is something I REALLY want or find unique, I tend to be more attracted to whatever is "on the shelf".

Billy

rbxbear44

My Feedback: (86)

David,
Part of the issue on this is them wanting to say 12 weeks and be the hero rather than the villan if it is less time, which in many cases...happens. I was quoted 12 weeks for a recent CARF deal and got it in just over 7 weeks...now, only having to pay $500 up front and balance when ready to ship. It's also kind of weird...I just inquired for a friend to ScaleJets for a F-16 and they said 4 months...and then Tomahawk says 8months on a BAe Hawk...I didn't blink an eye but when SM or anyone else says 12 weeks...I roll my eyeballs and start looking for another airframe! Guess I am "profiling" or something! For me, I don't see why it woudl take 12 weeks in any of this stuff but I do understand supply/demand/overhead/inventory/cash flow and can understand they want you "invested" to some extent too.

It is frustrating for sure.

Rex

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

You know if you are not too picky, there is a way around it.

Just wait for the kit you like ot show up in the ads. Chances are it will be less than 8-12 weeks. You may not get exactly what you want, but if you are waiting on a Chinese ARF chances are you won't anyway. You can also save on shipping and get some freebies. Just look at the ads by Mr DJ.

David

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

Rex,

I can understand the long wait times for the ScaleJets & TomaHawk products. These truly are high dollar, low volume items where supply demand equation is a major component. A couple years ago when CARF introduced their ultra scale A-4 I was one of the first to drop a $2k deposit for a six month delivery! 8 months later when the complete kit was still not available I canceled it and moved on to a SkyGate Hawk which took six months but again, was only required to place an initial deposit with balance when ready to deliver. I waited for over a year for the AirWorld F-100 to be available to ship and I didn't even have to place a deposit. When it was ready I got an email, I paid and the kit shipped!

I have just come to the belief that these long deliveries are more a way of providing financing for the companies operations. Very bad business model, IMO.

I don't think it will be enjoyable to be the last guy on the list when the orders run dry!

David S

bigplumbs

In my view these sort of waits are too long. I tend to go off the boil after about 4 weeks. Also paying up front does not seem right to me

Dennis

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

I'm specifically talking about the 8-12 weeks delivery for an ARF, regarding the bad business model comment, just to be clear.

David S

TJC333

If the jet is coming from Asia the ocean shipping time alone is at least four weeks. If the supplier has to wait until he has enough orders coming to the U.S. so he can fill a shipping container then that can add more time as well.

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

Tcirrani,

These kits all ship DHL from China. Three to four days max delivery.

David S

ddlstang

My Feedback: (2)

I have heard that a lot of the companies don't have a full staff of employees. They have to wait for the glass lay-up guy or paint guy to be available, a lot of these "specialists" acutally rotate around to several of the manufacturer's. This may not be true in all instances but know is the case in some.

They still should not charge full up-front, a non-refundable deposit required ONLY if the delivery terms are adhered to would be the best and fairest way. That way both parties have a stake in it.

ira d

The only thing that will change the way the kit makers do business is for people to stop buying them as long as they want you to pay up front
and wait 8-12 weeks.

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

Ira,

I'm pretty sure that I've now joined that list of people. No longer worth the potential aggravation.

David S

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

That would work for me. As for the money aspect of it, I'm prepared to put 50% down when I place the order with the balance due when the plane is ready to ship. There is no way that I'm prepared to pay 100% up front and wait 8-12 weeks to ship. Tried that once and I won't be doing that again.

Jim

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

I also agree that paying up-front and then waiting 8~12+ weeks for the jet to be made is ridiculous. Too many things can go wrong and the customer gets the short end of the stick. As someone else posted about credit cards, your window of opportunity to get a refund through your credit card company is usually 60 days from the transaction date. Once that time frame expires, you are at the sole mercy of the manufacturer ... and the manufacturers know this. At that point, you can't get your money back (or a credit) from your credit card company ... you are stuck. If the jet/plane arrives damaged (or not at all) your only recourse is with the manufacturer who is then too busy making someone elses plane/jet.

While the manufacturer wants some guarantee the customer will buy the jet, paying 100% up front is excessive. Maybe 10% down maximum, in my opinion. After all, you wouldn't pay your LOCAL contractor 100% up front to remodel your kitchen. So why on earth do it with a plane/jet that is made in another country?

Once enough people start insisting on a 10% down payment or refusing to purchase a jet under those 100% upfront terms (and the manufacturers see customers and money walking away) things will turn around and the jet buyer will be more protected during a purchase. As for me, I'd never pay 100% upfront for anything unless I had it in my hand.

And I do think it is reasonable for any manufacturer to have a small inventory of jets on-hand. Secondly, making more than one at a time is cost effective as well as time effective. That results in more profit for the manufacturer... and probably more sales. The Chinese just need to stop using the Khan-ban system of one at a time.

rcjetsaok

My Feedback: (7)

I know somebody that waited a hell of a lot longer than that for a Kidney Transplant !!...... SERIOUSLY !!!!!...... You talk about problems... This guy had a Real problem...


Cheers,

Danno