BVM F-4 build
10-31-2011, 08:17 PM
#151
My Feedback: (13)
RE: BVM F-4 build
Craig,
I remember going through basic training there were five responses: yes sir, no sir, I don't know sir but I will find out, and two others that allude me right now. Answering anything other than those and there was some BS they'd come up with. When I showed up at Intro to Fighter Fundamentals (Fighter Lead In, or Lead In Ighter Training before) they told us as wingman we had three responses and that was it:
1. "Two" (as in your radio call sign)
2. "Lead you're trailing smoke" (far be it from us to decide if he was on fire, that was his decision)
And finally....
3. "I'll take the fat one"
Amazing they let us fly jets at all....
Craig, did ever work with a FAC call sign Covey 555?
Dave
I remember going through basic training there were five responses: yes sir, no sir, I don't know sir but I will find out, and two others that allude me right now. Answering anything other than those and there was some BS they'd come up with. When I showed up at Intro to Fighter Fundamentals (Fighter Lead In, or Lead In Ighter Training before) they told us as wingman we had three responses and that was it:
1. "Two" (as in your radio call sign)
2. "Lead you're trailing smoke" (far be it from us to decide if he was on fire, that was his decision)
And finally....
3. "I'll take the fat one"
Amazing they let us fly jets at all....
Craig, did ever work with a FAC call sign Covey 555?
Dave
11-01-2011, 03:45 AM
#152
RE: BVM F-4 build
ORIGINAL: ozief16
1. ''Two'' (as in your radio call sign)
2. ''Lead you're trailing smoke'' (far be it from us to decide if he was on fire, that was his decision)
And finally....
3. ''I'll take the fat one''
Amazing they let us fly jets at all....
Craig, did ever work with a FAC call sign Covey 555?
Dave
1. ''Two'' (as in your radio call sign)
2. ''Lead you're trailing smoke'' (far be it from us to decide if he was on fire, that was his decision)
And finally....
3. ''I'll take the fat one''
Amazing they let us fly jets at all....
Craig, did ever work with a FAC call sign Covey 555?
Dave
Dave, I worked with a lot of Covey's in 72' & 73'....mostly in Cambodia. They were flying O-2's out of somewhere in Thailand as I recall. Can't remember specific call signs now but we certainly recognized the different guys back then. I remember one who would play his harmonica over the radio waiting for us to show up (I think he only knew one song).
I could tell you some stories........
Craig
11-02-2011, 02:54 PM
#154
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RE: BVM F-4 build
Thanks John for taking the time to share theBVM F-4 build with the rest of us. I started working on one a couple of years back and had to set it aside when life got to hectic. You have inspired me to finally get back to work on it and Iwould love to have it ready for a test flight in Tucson next March!! My next major hurdle will be deciding on a paint scheme!! I will be sitting on the edge of my chair eagerly waiting for your next updates!!!
Not sure why but my kit hadTWO rudders included in it. Your welcome to the extra one if you need it for the rework your doing on Ozie's.
Thanks again for sharing all your expertise,
Jim
Not sure why but my kit hadTWO rudders included in it. Your welcome to the extra one if you need it for the rework your doing on Ozie's.
Thanks again for sharing all your expertise,
Jim
ORIGINAL: John Redman
Okay, first few pics uploaded to show this is for real. Both fuses on the table. The parts from Ozie have some work done and some serious rework to bring them to life. Nose is glued on and needs to be finished. Nose doors are hinged with large gaps, will require new doors to be made and done. The rudder I won't even talk about. The other issue is the wings have been mounted but the inlet cheek cowls never installed. So for those that have built one of these, know the cheek cowls need to be installed to ensure proper wing incidence. Really amazing to me someone would buy a kit of this cost and then not follow the basic instructions. Inlet diverters have been glued on to the cheek cowls, but when installed lets just say they won't fit. UGH! It will take me the better part of the week to get things in order and build a plan to make these work when built together.
Good thing is all things can be fixed. Bad thing is for Ozie, his wallet ill get to do the talking. BV is going to love his first order.
Stay tuned.
Okay, first few pics uploaded to show this is for real. Both fuses on the table. The parts from Ozie have some work done and some serious rework to bring them to life. Nose is glued on and needs to be finished. Nose doors are hinged with large gaps, will require new doors to be made and done. The rudder I won't even talk about. The other issue is the wings have been mounted but the inlet cheek cowls never installed. So for those that have built one of these, know the cheek cowls need to be installed to ensure proper wing incidence. Really amazing to me someone would buy a kit of this cost and then not follow the basic instructions. Inlet diverters have been glued on to the cheek cowls, but when installed lets just say they won't fit. UGH! It will take me the better part of the week to get things in order and build a plan to make these work when built together.
Good thing is all things can be fixed. Bad thing is for Ozie, his wallet ill get to do the talking. BV is going to love his first order.
Stay tuned.
11-02-2011, 09:09 PM
#155
My Feedback: (13)
RE: BVM F-4 build
Guys,
Time to throw another random story in here...I'm hoping Mark Taylor, Craig, or anyone else will share as well..My dad commissioned in 74, so he missed 'The Big One', but I'm sure there are several out there with experience 'Up North'. I've been to a few Red River Rat gatherings and listened to some amazing F-4 stories, maybe I can regurgitate those as well.
For now, here's another peace-time Phantom flier story:
There’s another story forwarded by my dad about F4 training at George AFB during RTU. Interestingly this one involves the very same new pilot and new WSO that had the “on fire†misadventure in the arming area. Some guys/crews were simply lightening rods for strange adventures even though they could be decent flyers. (ed note: his very nice PC term 'lightning rod' is called '***** magnet' in a fighter squadron today!)
This particular “snake bit†aircrew was well along into the training syllabus and frequently flying as a new “solo†crew in the 2 and 4 ship flights on air to air and bomb dropping rides.
One day they returned from a bombing ride and taxied clear of the runway into the dearming area. Depending on the number of planes sitting there, this could take some time for your plane to be the next one getting the safety pins. On this particular day, there was a long wait for your turn and planes kept coming into the line and others, when finished, would taxi back to the ramp.
Well, while sitting there, the standard was to be cold mic (so you didn't have to listen to the heavy breathing of the other guy), the new WSO decided he really needed to go to the bathroom (as in #2). So, he safed his ejection seat, unstrapped and climbed out over the left side, across the top of the left intake, down to and out the wing and climbed off using the wing tank then headed to the porta potty that was out there for the dearming crew.
After a delay, the dearming crew came along the line and safed up his F4. Once done, the new AC (ed note: aircraft commander, i.e. pilot) edged out of the dearm area and taxied back to the ramp. It was a LONG way back due to the positioning of the runways and the length of the runways (think F-105 takeoff roll, ~12k' or over two miles).
The WSO, finally finishing his own personal download and walked back out to the line of F4s with the intention of climbing back up into his plane. Unbelievably, the plane on the end of the line (the one he’d gotten out of) already had 2 guys in the cockpits. Hmmmm, someone must have cleared the runway and taken the end spot. So, he starts walking (in the California desert heat) down the line of F4s sitting there idling and found plane after plane already had 2 guys in it. About this time, one of the instructor WSOs, noting the lost WSO’s search, hit the transmit button and said, “Where’s my horse???â€
The outraged new WSO, having figured out that his numb nuts front seater had left without him, started the long walk back to the ramp. The longer he walked the madder he became. It could have gotten worse, though, since in his anger he nearly stepped over the ramp’s red line marked “Deadly Force Authorized.†The security police, always looking for an opportunity to jack up (throw down?) an officer, were nearby licking their chops. Fortunately for him, the WSO realized the situation in the nick of time.
The only other shock was the front seater’s when he shutdown in the parking space and found an open rear cockpit with no WSO. He was happy to see there was still an ejection seat in there, but had no clue where the WSO was. The assumption was made that some how, some way the WSO would turn up somewhere (he was still walking back and still out of sight of the ramp).
Yes…..those two did continue to fly together after this latest adventure and tightened up their crew coordination/communication. To this day, my dad is wondering if the WSO logged the time it took him to make that long walk back to the ramp.
Dave
Time to throw another random story in here...I'm hoping Mark Taylor, Craig, or anyone else will share as well..My dad commissioned in 74, so he missed 'The Big One', but I'm sure there are several out there with experience 'Up North'. I've been to a few Red River Rat gatherings and listened to some amazing F-4 stories, maybe I can regurgitate those as well.
For now, here's another peace-time Phantom flier story:
There’s another story forwarded by my dad about F4 training at George AFB during RTU. Interestingly this one involves the very same new pilot and new WSO that had the “on fire†misadventure in the arming area. Some guys/crews were simply lightening rods for strange adventures even though they could be decent flyers. (ed note: his very nice PC term 'lightning rod' is called '***** magnet' in a fighter squadron today!)
This particular “snake bit†aircrew was well along into the training syllabus and frequently flying as a new “solo†crew in the 2 and 4 ship flights on air to air and bomb dropping rides.
One day they returned from a bombing ride and taxied clear of the runway into the dearming area. Depending on the number of planes sitting there, this could take some time for your plane to be the next one getting the safety pins. On this particular day, there was a long wait for your turn and planes kept coming into the line and others, when finished, would taxi back to the ramp.
Well, while sitting there, the standard was to be cold mic (so you didn't have to listen to the heavy breathing of the other guy), the new WSO decided he really needed to go to the bathroom (as in #2). So, he safed his ejection seat, unstrapped and climbed out over the left side, across the top of the left intake, down to and out the wing and climbed off using the wing tank then headed to the porta potty that was out there for the dearming crew.
After a delay, the dearming crew came along the line and safed up his F4. Once done, the new AC (ed note: aircraft commander, i.e. pilot) edged out of the dearm area and taxied back to the ramp. It was a LONG way back due to the positioning of the runways and the length of the runways (think F-105 takeoff roll, ~12k' or over two miles).
The WSO, finally finishing his own personal download and walked back out to the line of F4s with the intention of climbing back up into his plane. Unbelievably, the plane on the end of the line (the one he’d gotten out of) already had 2 guys in the cockpits. Hmmmm, someone must have cleared the runway and taken the end spot. So, he starts walking (in the California desert heat) down the line of F4s sitting there idling and found plane after plane already had 2 guys in it. About this time, one of the instructor WSOs, noting the lost WSO’s search, hit the transmit button and said, “Where’s my horse???â€
The outraged new WSO, having figured out that his numb nuts front seater had left without him, started the long walk back to the ramp. The longer he walked the madder he became. It could have gotten worse, though, since in his anger he nearly stepped over the ramp’s red line marked “Deadly Force Authorized.†The security police, always looking for an opportunity to jack up (throw down?) an officer, were nearby licking their chops. Fortunately for him, the WSO realized the situation in the nick of time.
The only other shock was the front seater’s when he shutdown in the parking space and found an open rear cockpit with no WSO. He was happy to see there was still an ejection seat in there, but had no clue where the WSO was. The assumption was made that some how, some way the WSO would turn up somewhere (he was still walking back and still out of sight of the ramp).
Yes…..those two did continue to fly together after this latest adventure and tightened up their crew coordination/communication. To this day, my dad is wondering if the WSO logged the time it took him to make that long walk back to the ramp.
Dave
11-03-2011, 05:24 AM
#156
RE: BVM F-4 build
Awesome story Ozie.
Jim, stay tuned. I will let you know if I need that rudder. Thanks for that.
So I received the magnets to work on the radomes. I have fitted the short nose radome with the magnets and believe it will work. I have been working this the past few days. I am in the shop tonight and will get some more pictures up very soon.
Jim we need you to get your Phantom finished. You will love it!!!!!
Jim, stay tuned. I will let you know if I need that rudder. Thanks for that.
So I received the magnets to work on the radomes. I have fitted the short nose radome with the magnets and believe it will work. I have been working this the past few days. I am in the shop tonight and will get some more pictures up very soon.
Jim we need you to get your Phantom finished. You will love it!!!!!
11-04-2011, 04:58 AM
#157
RE: BVM F-4 build
Roger a few pics of the canopy hold down system using the hooks and poly ply baldes to position the canopy on the fuselage.
pic #1 shows the canopy hooks at the back of the canopy.
Pic #2 shows the poly ply blades to position the canopy frame correctly on the fuselage flange.
pic #1 shows the canopy hooks at the back of the canopy.
Pic #2 shows the poly ply blades to position the canopy frame correctly on the fuselage flange.
11-04-2011, 05:12 AM
#158
RE: BVM F-4 build
I received the magnets I ordered and have been working the radome. My goal is to access all switches, refueling tubes, and air systems under the radome. And I woudl like to have the radmoe magnetically held on so there are no screws visible. It took some figuring and work but I believe I have it covered. Pictures below show the magnets installed as well as the small gap filled between the fuselage and radome. This area is almost ready for final primer and sanding.
Pic #1 shows the magnets on the bottom of the radome. Each magnet has a strength rating of 3.4 pounds. After some reasearch it seem that a magnets strength rating is not the same when it attaches to another magnet of the same type. All found on the internet so I am not fully sure but it took 4 of these to make me feel comfortable. All backed up with aeropoxy and the magnets sit right on top of themselves when installed.
Pic #2 shows the magnets installed on the nose of the aircraft. There are two more magnets on top with an alignment dowel as well.
Pic #3 shows the radome installed and the gap in the process of being filled.
The lower infrared heater sensor pod under the radome used on some variants of the Phantom is cast entirely out of resin. This is the best way to make a part like this but it is heavy and does pose a problem with the magnet radome. There would be a lot of weight out on the end of the radome when installed. I weighed the part and found it to be 4.1 ounces. I elected to hollow it out to reduce the weight on the end of the radome. Weight when I was done was .9 ounces.
Pic #4 shows the hollowed out part before installation.
Pic #1 shows the magnets on the bottom of the radome. Each magnet has a strength rating of 3.4 pounds. After some reasearch it seem that a magnets strength rating is not the same when it attaches to another magnet of the same type. All found on the internet so I am not fully sure but it took 4 of these to make me feel comfortable. All backed up with aeropoxy and the magnets sit right on top of themselves when installed.
Pic #2 shows the magnets installed on the nose of the aircraft. There are two more magnets on top with an alignment dowel as well.
Pic #3 shows the radome installed and the gap in the process of being filled.
The lower infrared heater sensor pod under the radome used on some variants of the Phantom is cast entirely out of resin. This is the best way to make a part like this but it is heavy and does pose a problem with the magnet radome. There would be a lot of weight out on the end of the radome when installed. I weighed the part and found it to be 4.1 ounces. I elected to hollow it out to reduce the weight on the end of the radome. Weight when I was done was .9 ounces.
Pic #4 shows the hollowed out part before installation.
11-04-2011, 06:11 AM
#160
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RE: BVM F-4 build
ORIGINAL: John Redman
I received the magnets I ordered and have been working the radome. My goal is to access all switches, refueling tubes, and air systems under the radome. And I woudl like to have the radmoe magnetically held on so there are no screws visible. It took some figuring and work but I believe I have it covered. Pictures below show the magnets installed as well as the small gap filled between the fuselage and radome. This area is almost ready for final primer and sanding.
Pic #1 shows the magnets on the bottom of the radome. Each magnet has a strength rating of 3.4 pounds. After some reasearch it seem that a magnets strength rating is not the same when it attaches to another magnet of the same type. All found on the internet so I am not fully sure but it took 4 of these to make me feel comfortable. All backed up with aeropoxy and the magnets sit right on top of themselves when installed.
Pic #2 shows the magnets installed on the nose of the aircraft. There are two more magnets on top with an alignment dowel as well.
Pic #3 shows the radome installed and the gap in the process of being filled.
The lower infrared heater sensor pod under the radome used on some variants of the Phantom is cast entirely out of resin. This is the best way to make a part like this but it is heavy and does pose a problem with the magnet radome. There would be a lot of weight out on the end of the radome when installed. I weighed the part and found it to be 4.1 ounces. I elected to hollow it out to reduce the weight on the end of the radome. Weight when I was done was .9 ounces.
Pic #4 shows the hollowed out part before installation.
I received the magnets I ordered and have been working the radome. My goal is to access all switches, refueling tubes, and air systems under the radome. And I woudl like to have the radmoe magnetically held on so there are no screws visible. It took some figuring and work but I believe I have it covered. Pictures below show the magnets installed as well as the small gap filled between the fuselage and radome. This area is almost ready for final primer and sanding.
Pic #1 shows the magnets on the bottom of the radome. Each magnet has a strength rating of 3.4 pounds. After some reasearch it seem that a magnets strength rating is not the same when it attaches to another magnet of the same type. All found on the internet so I am not fully sure but it took 4 of these to make me feel comfortable. All backed up with aeropoxy and the magnets sit right on top of themselves when installed.
Pic #2 shows the magnets installed on the nose of the aircraft. There are two more magnets on top with an alignment dowel as well.
Pic #3 shows the radome installed and the gap in the process of being filled.
The lower infrared heater sensor pod under the radome used on some variants of the Phantom is cast entirely out of resin. This is the best way to make a part like this but it is heavy and does pose a problem with the magnet radome. There would be a lot of weight out on the end of the radome when installed. I weighed the part and found it to be 4.1 ounces. I elected to hollow it out to reduce the weight on the end of the radome. Weight when I was done was .9 ounces.
Pic #4 shows the hollowed out part before installation.
I like the magnet system, may retrofit it to my pig. Couple of questions, where did you get the magnets? I am assuming they are rare earth magnets? On my F-FO there is a bunch of junk in the nose, like airlines, ECU, switches etc.... I have always held mine on with a screw in pitot tube, or just a 4-40 cap screw, are you not worried about the magnets holding well enough in flight? I'd hate to see the radome fall off.
DR
11-04-2011, 06:54 AM
#161
RE: BVM F-4 build
Hey Dave,
Yes the magents are rare earth magnets. Found here. http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/
I really think the radome will stay on. There aren't any crazy forces actiing on it in flight to cause it to come undone. And with the E model, it would be even better. Horizon and Hobbico have been using magnetic cowls for a long time on certain models with great success. And that is with unbalanced props, etc. If you have a short nose and have the heavy weighted resin cast donkey dick underneath then you might be in for some trouble. That is why I hollowed mine out so much.
I do believe in the event of a real bad landing the radome may pop loose, but hey if it does, there may be other things we need to worry about.
Goal is easy access to all the switches, air lines, etc for service without having to remove any hatches.
Radome coming off in flight could be tough. I think the model would still fly and you could get home safely. Would be much better than loosing a hatch.
Yes the magents are rare earth magnets. Found here. http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/
I really think the radome will stay on. There aren't any crazy forces actiing on it in flight to cause it to come undone. And with the E model, it would be even better. Horizon and Hobbico have been using magnetic cowls for a long time on certain models with great success. And that is with unbalanced props, etc. If you have a short nose and have the heavy weighted resin cast donkey dick underneath then you might be in for some trouble. That is why I hollowed mine out so much.
I do believe in the event of a real bad landing the radome may pop loose, but hey if it does, there may be other things we need to worry about.
Goal is easy access to all the switches, air lines, etc for service without having to remove any hatches.
Radome coming off in flight could be tough. I think the model would still fly and you could get home safely. Would be much better than loosing a hatch.
11-04-2011, 07:51 AM
#162
My Feedback: (13)
RE: BVM F-4 build
Wow John, beautiful job hogging out that donkey deal. What was it on the full scale? Ever see the SNL skit "More Cowbell"? More magnets!!!
A couple pages ago someone asked about the variable inlet ramps. According to the -1 they: are only really active at high Mach numbers (no number listed, guessing 1.5+). It consists of a fixed forward ramp and two variable ramps. The forward ramp is perforated to allow boundary layer air to be bled off and exhausted overboard. The aft variable ramp is solid. It also says when taxiing in the exhaust of another jet it may be enough to trick the system into cycling (ie based on the heat it thinks it's moving super fast through the air)
The old man thinks they essentially functioned like laying a piece of paper flat on a table and pushing the two ends together (with the bump being in the vertical axis on the fs) which would dramatically limit the volume of air that could get in
Hope this helps!
Dave
A couple pages ago someone asked about the variable inlet ramps. According to the -1 they: are only really active at high Mach numbers (no number listed, guessing 1.5+). It consists of a fixed forward ramp and two variable ramps. The forward ramp is perforated to allow boundary layer air to be bled off and exhausted overboard. The aft variable ramp is solid. It also says when taxiing in the exhaust of another jet it may be enough to trick the system into cycling (ie based on the heat it thinks it's moving super fast through the air)
The old man thinks they essentially functioned like laying a piece of paper flat on a table and pushing the two ends together (with the bump being in the vertical axis on the fs) which would dramatically limit the volume of air that could get in
Hope this helps!
Dave
11-04-2011, 10:04 AM
#163
My Feedback: (1)
RE: BVM F-4 build
Hey John, I like the magnet idea. What if you also in addition to that use a couple dowels to key the nose cone on. This way the magnets have no load on them even in a hard landing, the dowels would keep the cone from being able to flex downward at all.
About to get after the three I have in my shop as the snow is about to hit the ground.
About to get after the three I have in my shop as the snow is about to hit the ground.
11-04-2011, 12:31 PM
#164
RE: BVM F-4 build
ORIGINAL: John Redman
...With the canopy installed we need to fill teh gap and clean up the edges. This is done with Evercoat 416. This body filler is light weight and crazy strong. I have never had it let go ever on anything. <snip>
...With the canopy installed we need to fill teh gap and clean up the edges. This is done with Evercoat 416. This body filler is light weight and crazy strong. I have never had it let go ever on anything. <snip>
Keep up the great work, John. The build and TINS stories being contributed as background music are awesome!!
Mike
11-04-2011, 04:17 PM
#166
RE: BVM F-4 build
ORIGINAL: John Redman
Roger a few pics of the canopy hold down system using the hooks and poly ply baldes to position the canopy on the fuselage.
pic #1 shows the canopy hooks at the back of the canopy.
Pic #2 shows the poly ply blades to position the canopy frame correctly on the fuselage flange.
Roger a few pics of the canopy hold down system using the hooks and poly ply baldes to position the canopy on the fuselage.
pic #1 shows the canopy hooks at the back of the canopy.
Pic #2 shows the poly ply blades to position the canopy frame correctly on the fuselage flange.
I think this hook system is the business. It's a tedious process (for me anyway) installing them correctly, but if you do one at a time, and go slow, the result is a barley visible panel line, and a canopy that simply slips on and off.
Photo is of my Super Bandit hatch after the hook have been installed. took me several night works.. but I am slow.
Ozie.
Thanks for the stories and info .. BTW, Are you a dinkium Australian??
Roger
11-06-2011, 12:52 PM
#169
RE: BVM F-4 build
You should see Roger's work in the flesh, at least as good as any I have seen and vastly better than most. Lets hope he does a build thread on this F100.
Regards,
David.
Regards,
David.
11-06-2011, 07:15 PM
#171
RE: BVM F-4 build
ORIGINAL: David Gladwin
You should see Roger's work in the flesh, at least as good as any I have seen and vastly better than most. Lets hope he does a build thread on this F100.
Regards,
David.
You should see Roger's work in the flesh, at least as good as any I have seen and vastly better than most. Lets hope he does a build thread on this F100.
Regards,
David.
Thanks David. You are toooo kind.. I consider myself average at this art form.. The problem is, hardly anyone practises building any more, so its easy to look good, even if all you can do is cyno your fingers together. The pros like John here are another level altogether.
BTW, (to keep this related to Johns thread), What is the status of your BVM Rhino??
Ozie,,
Just picking up on your name. Thought you might have been an export from this great dry land. No worries maaaaaaaaate.
bskyinc,,
I am a very slow builder, however if there is some interest I might do as David suggested. (It might be a 2-3 year saga though.)
Roger
11-07-2011, 04:44 AM
#173
RE: BVM F-4 build
Hey Roger, it is moving along slowly. I have had a computer at home that decided it was time for the SD card reader to die so I will load pictures up from work.
I have begun to work the bleed air vents on the top and botom of the inlet cheek cowls and modify the inlet diverters for a more scale appearance at the top and bottom back edges where they extend above and below the intakes. I got the radome mounted for the E model and am very happy with it. Canopy hatch for the E model is done as well. Pictues coming later today.
I have begun to work the bleed air vents on the top and botom of the inlet cheek cowls and modify the inlet diverters for a more scale appearance at the top and bottom back edges where they extend above and below the intakes. I got the radome mounted for the E model and am very happy with it. Canopy hatch for the E model is done as well. Pictues coming later today.
11-07-2011, 07:02 AM
#174
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RE: BVM F-4 build
Would it make any sense, or even be possible to install two turbines for a more scale setup? Maybe something like two jetcat p-100's? The obvious downsides are weight and fuel consumption... Thoughts?
11-07-2011, 07:11 AM
#175
RE: BVM F-4 build
There just isn't enough room in the BVM F-4 for fuel for 2 motors. People have looked at it as I know I have too, just no way. When teh P-60 came out that gave us some hoppe, but when we looked at it carefully we decided nope, just not going to happen. 