dbsonic

My Feedback: (3)

I know I am going to get a lot of flak for this.. but here it goes...
Is EDF really better than BVM 91 powered ICDF?

With EDF we can't seem to get good speed controllers as they are all out of stock/recall.
The flight time is measured in 2 or 3 minutes.
Finding space to add batteries is tricky along with maintaining CG.
But they are reliable(assuming the new controllers wont blow up like the old ones.. however, I dont plan to be a beta tester).

With ICDF I suppose the main issue is mess and noise.
But the flight time is at least 5 mins, perhaps more right?
And you get a nice smoke trail and it is relatively cheap.
But I guess you could throw a rod or more likely, blow a plug making it less reliable.

Is there a case for ICDF?

Gene Margiotti

My Feedback: (4)

I like ICDF - I guess that's my case for it. EDF is definitely more powerful and easier to achieve, although I don't know very much about electrics. Actually, I know little to nothing. My best bet as far as EDF is concerned is to see what the active people are using and copy their set ups. I simply don't know enough to design my own.

ICDF, on the other hand, I know quite a bit about and I really enjoy the noise, smell, goo, mess and fuss. That's what keeps me interested. It's also very cheap these days and that can be a positive. YMMV

Gene

dbsonic

My Feedback: (3)

I hear ya. I forgot to mention my last EDF came out heavier than its ICDF counterpart, but the power was more substantial as an EDF.

This may not be the case for a BVM 91 powered ICDF.

Thud_Driver

My Feedback: (1)

I did ICDF for roughly 10 years and something over 825 flights.  I'll never go back.  8 aircraft, roughly 9 engines (includes 2 or more rebuilt into one good one), many pipes & o-rings, rods, pistons, cranks, many, many dozens of plugs, etc.  Mostly Ramtec & Dynamax with OS's with some BVM fan and .91's.  Yes, you can do way better than this with some effort and expense, but then, that's my experience.

I switched to turbine in 2002 and the difference was dramatic.  Almost overnight, I went to an average of 50 to 60 flights a month (I was retired) but lately I've been slowing down on that.  The biggie was that I went from 10-20 hours of maintenence per flight hour on the ICDF to nearly zero on the turbine and now have something like 4500+ flight in the last 9 years.

I'm just back this morning from flying my Tam's TJ-80 powered Habu 32  EDF.  On 6S it's about 125-130 mph for 5 minutes on 5000mah and on 8S it's just under 4 minutes at 140-150mph on 4000mah.  It flys very much like the BVM Bandit series.  No hassle, put battery in & fly.  Repeat.  Charge batteries. Next day, repeat.  Over 200 flights, way fun and I'm wondering if I prefer it to the turbine stuff.

If I had had the Habu during my ICDF days, I would have sold all the ICDF stuff immediately.

Used to see the occasional ICDF at the meets up to about 2 years ago.  No more.  Got to like it like Gene above but not many do.

dbsonic

My Feedback: (3)

Fair point about the maintenance. I remember that now and it is just like you said, more time working on the airframe than flying it.
Haven't been flying EDF long enough to make a comparison in that regard.

smchale

My Feedback: (67)

I've flown both and I can convincingly say that my vote would be EDF. Besides the obvious lack of noise and messy goop that you need to clean up, I like the fact that I can sit at the flight line and when ready to fly just turn on the tx and rx, make the final lipo connection and go fly. The simplicity and reliability vs IC has been an enjoyable change.

KC36330

i absolutely hate the hair dryer sound of most EDF (yes i know there are a few that sound like a turbine but they are the $$$ of a turbine) but with that said, i'd convert every turbine i've got to EDF before i'd go back to ICDF. plug and play and they actually have enough power to fly around on.

k_sonn

My Feedback: (32)

In my opinion, the only case for ICDF is if it's what you like, then do it. I personally perferr EDF over ICDF or turbine for many of the merits mentioned above andthe challenge of converting a turbine airframe to EDF power. If you perferr ICDF, then do it because at the end of the day it is your joy that matters and not what everyone else thinks about your power system choice.

Kirk

smchale

My Feedback: (67)

Amen.

dbsonic

My Feedback: (3)

Fair points from all, and if running a BVM 91 is anything like a K&B48 then I dont want to go there. Great idle but that thing was fragile and impossible to get parts. BVM 91 is probably now in the same boat since Nelson engines has changed hands.

Incidentally, the jury is still out for full size electric aircraft. Hard to compare with the energy per volume of conventional fuels and they are facing a lot of the same issues as modelers in terms of careful and proper battery maintanence and long charge cycles. I think there is still a ways to go there.

John Redman

My Feedback: (8)

Nelson engines has not changed hands, Henry just decided to retire. Performance Specialties was handed all the BVM stuff from BVM, but when he is out of parts, it is over.

Just not worth it IMO. Good luck on whatever you use.

JackD

My Feedback: (4)

The 2 to 3 minute statement is very innacurate. Times of good EDF are in the 5 to 7 minutes range. An electra will fly longer on EDF than an ultraviper used to fly on a BVM 91

I flew ICDF a lot, BVM Sabre, Viper, T33 and the ultimate F4 on twin Viofans with BVM 91's. And there is no comparison to a 12s EVF.
Having said that, ICDF was tons of fun!!!! i don't recall the horror stories people always bring up. Maybe the Viojet with a BVM 91 set up was superior and more reliable
And the twin phantom was the biggest showstopper ever. The sound of a perfectly tuned twin was just amazing
I guess my dad had it figured out, but with good fuel, good oil and good in flight mixture management, those BVM 91's ran flawesly.

I guess the answer is what Kirk just mentioned: EDF is higher performance, period. But there is nothing wrong if you want the challenge of doing something different with the ICDF.

Ron101

My Feedback: (22)

Forgive me I have to laugh at a lot of the statements made on this fourm about EDF. I really think it comes for guys that just don't do it and really know.

But there are plenty high blade count fans that sound awesome and are cost effective. Stu Max fans fit the bill for great sound, performance and cost. With motors there in the $700 range for larger fans and $400 for smaller fans.
With that said if you have a glow plane with a Dynamax, they make a really great conversion and sound dam near as cool as the Stu Max.

There are many ways and motors to convert the dynamax...some are really cheap and can work great.

There is also one of my favorites the Dyn-E-Max from fred baldwin... I love fred, but I have heard of slow shipping for some. I have not had that experiance myself.


Here's a video of my Stu Max powered Spark... I built this entire plane for $2400 ready to run, that's the price of just a turbine. It gets 6:30 to 7:00 flights on cheap packs at 170mph top speed.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sRhYfqX9-0[/youtube]

Here is a my Habu with the new Stu Max 80mm... what a joy of a fan to fly smooth and powerful.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdzQUYXwNg0[/youtube]

Here is my Tam Jets A-4 with a Dyn-E-Max (converted Dynamax on 4000 watts) 17.5 pound jet

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZtSNIUZBfU[/youtube]


And one of my favorite conversions Pablos dynamax powered hawk... I have one also that I'm sorting out

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVXJKfagL10[/youtube]


I started jets many years ago with a os 91 powered dynamax yellow A-4... why in the world anyone would even want to deal with dead sticks, a huge mess and low power I don't know
I would totally get it if it was for budget reasons, it is very cheap these days.. but I wouldn't do jets if that was my only option, not worth the headache

If anyone wants help picking out fans or conversion hit me up I'm more than happy to help, I'm tied to no one just a modeler that likes to pass on what I've learned from others in electrics

Thud_Driver

My Feedback: (1)

Good point. I forgot to mention the deadsticks with ICDF. Lots of emergency landing practice to be had there. Oh, and don't forget there will be a test on getting the low & high speed needles set right.

smaze17

My Feedback: (60)

This is totally and completely inaccurate. Castle had an issue with their HV controllers but the ICE2 controllers are out now and guys have been giving them rave reviews. So your statement is horribly inaccurate. Besides, Castle isn't the only dog in this hunt. There are many other companies out there who make great ESC's.

S

Pondus

My Feedback: (1)

Castle is perhaps the only AMERICAN manufacturer of speed controls, but there are many over here in Europe that make quality products, like JETI, Schultze, MGM Compro and YGE to name a few so there's no lack of suitable equipment. And I have to laugh about the 2-3 min. flight time statement, obviously coming from someone with a total lack of EDF knowledge. That was the deal 8-10 years ago before LiPo batteries started to come onto the scene. My 30lb CARF MiG-15 on EDF power (converted Dynamax with 19lb installed thrust) easily gets 5-6 min flights, and that is with a power system as cheap as bying a used P80 turbine.

dbsonic

My Feedback: (3)

I'm in a wait and see mode on Castle stuff. Fact is, If you try to get a new HV ESC at this time, it is rather difficult as most retailers are out of stock/placed on backorder and that goes for both Castle and non-Castle stuff. May not be a big deal if you are waiting till spring to fly.

As for runtimes, bear in mind I am not talking about Super-edfs. I should have prefaced that my interest is mainly conversions of existing designs and airframes with limited space with a bend toward economy.

dbsonic

My Feedback: (3)

@ThudDriver, yeah, the deadstick is probably single biggest concern. After that happens and the gear is ripped off - it is precisely at that moment one realizes he should have used EDF . What are the odds I could run a 91 with no deadsticks.

I just noticed glow plugs now go for $5 to $6 a piece.. yeow.

FMRR

"I know I am going to get a lot of flak for this.. but here it goes...
Is EDF really better than BVM 91 powered ICDF?"

Fair question.IMHO....present day EDF is better and will only get better each day and year that passes.Most of us started with glow( I did ) and was a great way to fly back in the day.Then many years ago in Palm beach Florida at a Top Gun event we all saw the first turbine jet fly which change every thing. I love it all... Glow,EDF and turbines,.. and have read many post with each "camp" sharing pro and cons.Go were your present skills are strongest and budget.Enjoy the hobby and have fun with it.From that start point learn what you must to fly a different power system.I think the future will be EDF because that is the only power system were the greatest advances in technology can be made.And not just our hobby but in the entire world transportation system. For me once wheels break ground I don't care what is pushing it just love to fly at that point.I also enjoy sharing with the great people here what they know freely and for non profit.I have been Airframe Powerplant mechanic since 1991 and I still love to learn.The free fare exchange and inter action of what we all know and share is what makes the people and our hobby so much fun.Enjoy have fun...happy turkey day to all.

edit for date correction...sorry been A&P since 1981,now you know I'm old and senile

smaze17

My Feedback: (60)

I currently have 3 ICE 100's, an ICE2 HV 120 and an ICE 75. All have been flawless. Personally, I think Castle's stuff is very well engineered and made plus they don't try to gouge you like Kontronic. You can get the ICE2 HV 120 for just $218.99 at Grand RC. A very fair price for a great controller.

S

Ron101

My Feedback: (22)

I agree spencer, I have also had great luck with Castle and there customer support has always been great. They are working through a tuff spot and I know they will come out on top after this. We have to hand it to them for recalling an issue that had to cost them a huge amount of income. Hobby King sure as hell wouldn't...lol




What planes are you looking to convert maybe we can give you a hand??

Boomerang1

Firstly I don't own any ICDF's and my only EDF is a Habu. I am into electric models.

I was of the opinion that ICDF's are a PIA, unreliable, gutless, high maintenance etc etc.

A friend turns up at the field with an OS 91 powered semi scale Hornet, probably a size what I'd expect to see fly with a P-70 or similar, so I gave him a hand.

Started easily & flew the plane fine for about 7 mins including nice aerobatics & landed fine.

At jet flys I attend a couple of young guys flog an old ICDF powered model around meet after meet, flight after flight, no problems.

Bottom line is these guys are still doing a lot of flying & having a lot of fun with ICDF. If I was starting from scratch I'd go EDF
but if I had all the gear to fly ICDF I would continue to do so until all the engines were beyond economic repair.
Like many things these days there are better/easier ways to get a result but they still get the job done. - John.

jonastecknare

I dont think this thread should be ICDF versus EDF, It should be EDF versus Turbine! I fly ICDF because for economic reasons. I can build cool things with things i can afford.
Now, if i had financial means to play with stronger stuff it sure wouldnt be electric...........
Jonas (Mig is ICDF)

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

For me personally. I stayed out of jets after I flew a byron F-16 with an OS 77 many years ago. It was archaic at best.

I hate the vibration.

I told my buddy one day when they make a mini turbine I'll try again.

Today, I have a Wren and a bunch of 90mm edfs. And I'm just getting started in making composite jets.

Steve

FMRR

"I hate the vibration."

Tell that to John Force Top Fuel funny car champ.... lol or even better Rare Bear Reno air champ.