So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
12-12-2011, 09:42 AM
#27
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
For people like myself who love life and enjoy sporting pursuits, "whackjob" is more a term of endearment 
Kirk, your definition may be a bit more clinical based on personal experience. And also, this isn't about fun and games, or me either. It's about lipoly safety. It was a good thread to bring to mind for many folks who may not know otherwise. I still maintain that "band names" do not fight lipoly fires for us. I've been a customer of Charlie and Advnaced Energy / Thunderpower for almost 10 years and the product is great but no lithium polymer battery product has a lock on fire proof batteries yet.
So we still have to be aware, or "get a grip" on the reality of it all. Safe flying everyone.
Kirk, your definition may be a bit more clinical based on personal experience. And also, this isn't about fun and games, or me either. It's about lipoly safety. It was a good thread to bring to mind for many folks who may not know otherwise. I still maintain that "band names" do not fight lipoly fires for us. I've been a customer of Charlie and Advnaced Energy / Thunderpower for almost 10 years and the product is great but no lithium polymer battery product has a lock on fire proof batteries yet.
So we still have to be aware, or "get a grip" on the reality of it all. Safe flying everyone.
12-12-2011, 09:58 AM
#29
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
ORIGINAL: k_sonn
Sorry to see you lost. What brand of batteries were you using. I can speak from experience that not all brands of LiPos will catch fire after a crash.
Sorry to see you lost. What brand of batteries were you using. I can speak from experience that not all brands of LiPos will catch fire after a crash.
12-12-2011, 10:15 AM
#30
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
ORIGINAL: raptureboy
In my day we built model planes and cars then filled them with fire crackers and lit them on fire. I guess that makes me a psycho killer?? 
How do you think they test real airplanes? They crash them and set them on fire. Lipo's are like loaded guns, get careless and they will kill ya. Thanks for the test results.
ORIGINAL: FILE IFR
4 years ago I intentionally set a LiPo to ignite.. It was a bad one anyway.
On my last FAA medical exam, I checked 'No' in the psych issue box... next year I'll have to check 'Yes'. [8D]
I guess burning a 9Z transmitter will get you a straight-jacket and padded room.
...It's not my pic, BTW
4 years ago I intentionally set a LiPo to ignite.. It was a bad one anyway.
On my last FAA medical exam, I checked 'No' in the psych issue box... next year I'll have to check 'Yes'. [8D]
I guess burning a 9Z transmitter will get you a straight-jacket and padded room.
...It's not my pic, BTW
How do you think they test real airplanes? They crash them and set them on fire. Lipo's are like loaded guns, get careless and they will kill ya. Thanks for the test results.
Really???? Crash them and set them on fire, really?
Gerry
12-12-2011, 10:20 AM
#31
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
ORIGINAL: rhklenke
Yea, I'm going to go with Eddie on this one. I think that *everyone* who uses LiPos should take an old pack, get it to about 1/3 charge, take it to a safe place with a fire extinguisher, and short the output leads. There are two kinds of LiPo users, one who have had an accidental fire, and those who are about too. Its best to have some idea what you are dealing with before the inevitable happens. This is tried and training training method for people dealing with flammable items...
Oh, and when you do it, invite some of the more ''casual'' LiPo users to see the demo. Those who have never seen a LiPo fire *always* respond with the likes of ''wow, I knew they could burn, but I didn't know it was like that!''
Bob
ORIGINAL: k_sonn
You set batteries on fire on purpose and I'm a different kind of person? That's priceless.
You set batteries on fire on purpose and I'm a different kind of person? That's priceless.
Oh, and when you do it, invite some of the more ''casual'' LiPo users to see the demo. Those who have never seen a LiPo fire *always* respond with the likes of ''wow, I knew they could burn, but I didn't know it was like that!''
Bob
Mmmm, like it is a good idea to take all drivers to burn a gallon of gas to a safe place with a fire extinguisher? Or people that use gas powered rc models. Maybe burning nitro would teach us something. Then again, maybe I pass...
Gerry
Heck I know people that like blowing up things, and they do it for a living, and they enjoy their work:-)
12-12-2011, 10:45 AM
#32
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Gerry, that's a great question. Fire training is in fact part of basic training for a lot of professional positions. For professional pilots, commercial drivers of some types, professional ground support folks of some types, it is mandatory that they are trained and tested in hands on fire safety and fire fighting. In fact I just had my annual fire safety refresher class. In some job positions I've had in the past, we have had to put out every class of fire except hazmat types - actual fires, smoke, breathing apparatus and actual fire fighting equipment - to completion. That's right. Light some gas up, and put it out. Do the same with all sorts of other material too. This is where the rubber meets the road and one of the more minor differences between professional qualifications, and a mere public license to drive a car or fly a light airplane for personal use.
I'm not advocating the training processes professionals are held to, to be applied to recreational model airplane hobbiests. Absolutely not. But it sure would not hurt to have a little intellectual curiosity and knowledge before a situation arises that could have been prevented, or at worst could have been stopped from progressing further. We will pay for the privilege through home owners insurance, personal liability, OUR AMA insurance and finally our life savings for the pleasure of being an observer in such a case where one could have been a player in preventing it from happening. Ignorance is only bliss for a little while.
That's why I say this thread brings up some good considerations for electric flying. We don't need a waiver, we just need a little knowledge to maintain the personal responsibility that most model airplane enthusiasts have displayed for years and years.
I'm not advocating the training processes professionals are held to, to be applied to recreational model airplane hobbiests. Absolutely not. But it sure would not hurt to have a little intellectual curiosity and knowledge before a situation arises that could have been prevented, or at worst could have been stopped from progressing further. We will pay for the privilege through home owners insurance, personal liability, OUR AMA insurance and finally our life savings for the pleasure of being an observer in such a case where one could have been a player in preventing it from happening. Ignorance is only bliss for a little while.
That's why I say this thread brings up some good considerations for electric flying. We don't need a waiver, we just need a little knowledge to maintain the personal responsibility that most model airplane enthusiasts have displayed for years and years.
12-12-2011, 11:36 AM
#34
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
I have flown F5D pylon in 2 World Champs. F3D is a rarity in here.
But I dont find the pylon safety rules bad at all.
No reason to regulate it more than what is done now.
We are talking about fast but reasonably light models that are flown by very
talented pilots in tight leash.
TP.
But I dont find the pylon safety rules bad at all.
No reason to regulate it more than what is done now.
We are talking about fast but reasonably light models that are flown by very
talented pilots in tight leash.
TP.
ORIGINAL: rcand
Might as well take it a step further. Have you every watched a pylon race? ever wondered why there are nets by the spectator area. I think the pylon guys need to be more regulated that the turbine guys. 200+ MPH and turns made towards a crowd and the AMA does not see this as a safety issue????
ORIGINAL: FenderBean
I think the waiver for jets should be on speed and size, the means to push the aircraft really makes no difference. The turbine waiver is supposed to be about safe operation of the turbine not a flight eval but it has primary become a flight thing. EDFs can fly as fast as any turbine and can be just as bad in a crash. I hope AMA eventually changes the regs to reflect this, turbines/jets dont kill people, bad pilot skills/habits kill people.
Suck to hear when anyone crashes, times are hard and money is harder to come by. [
]
I think the waiver for jets should be on speed and size, the means to push the aircraft really makes no difference. The turbine waiver is supposed to be about safe operation of the turbine not a flight eval but it has primary become a flight thing. EDFs can fly as fast as any turbine and can be just as bad in a crash. I hope AMA eventually changes the regs to reflect this, turbines/jets dont kill people, bad pilot skills/habits kill people.
Suck to hear when anyone crashes, times are hard and money is harder to come by. [
]
ORIGINAL: rcand
Might as well take it a step further. Have you every watched a pylon race? ever wondered why there are nets by the spectator area. I think the pylon guys need to be more regulated that the turbine guys. 200+ MPH and turns made towards a crowd and the AMA does not see this as a safety issue????
ORIGINAL: FenderBean
I think the waiver for jets should be on speed and size, the means to push the aircraft really makes no difference. The turbine waiver is supposed to be about safe operation of the turbine not a flight eval but it has primary become a flight thing. EDFs can fly as fast as any turbine and can be just as bad in a crash. I hope AMA eventually changes the regs to reflect this, turbines/jets dont kill people, bad pilot skills/habits kill people.
Suck to hear when anyone crashes, times are hard and money is harder to come by. []
I think the waiver for jets should be on speed and size, the means to push the aircraft really makes no difference. The turbine waiver is supposed to be about safe operation of the turbine not a flight eval but it has primary become a flight thing. EDFs can fly as fast as any turbine and can be just as bad in a crash. I hope AMA eventually changes the regs to reflect this, turbines/jets dont kill people, bad pilot skills/habits kill people.
Suck to hear when anyone crashes, times are hard and money is harder to come by. [
]
12-12-2011, 11:52 AM
#35
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
I agree with you 100% Eddie.
I've have been flying electric power now for 6 years, I have never had a battery fire. But have seen several crashes now with 12s 5000 mah and it was a shock to see that much power go off at once.
I think it would be very smart for every club to clear and area have a club meeting on safety measures... and light off an old pack. Even just a 3s 2200 pack stores an amazing amount of power.
I fly every weekend and many of my friends have never seen a lipo fire, I'm sure they would treat them with much more care if they did.
Here's is a few tips for lipo safety I have picked up over the years.
1. always have a fire extinguisher on hand (Halon is the best and what I carry with me anytime I fly..even at the park)
2. If you have a crash get to the plane quickly with the extinguisher, most of the time the fire takes a few minutes to start
3. If the pack doesn't light up on impact set it in a safe area for 30 minutes at least until you put it in a trash can or car... they can light up delayed
4. Trim any sharp bolts in the plane or cover them with rubber.. the two fires I did see where caused by the packs being impaled on the motor mount bolts sticking through the firewall. I now trim all of mine and cap them
5. Fire is more likely at the begining of the flight when the voltage is at it's highest...as the voltage drops the chance of fire drops and the size of the fire the pack will produce
6. DO NOT BREATH lipo smoke... Lipo smoke mixes with the mositure in your lungs to form an acid that can kill you, stay up wind until it's out.
7. Store all packs at storage charge (3.85 voltsper cell) this reduces the chance of fire and lessens the fire it will make.
8. Charge out doors in a fire safe area
9. Store and transport lipos in fire safe bags, placed in ammo cans that are vented.. drill two large 1/2 hole in the lid and file the sharp edges. Lipos don't need oxygen to burn, if the cans aren't vented they will become a bomb that can through off shrapnel
10. don't store packs fully charged, or at least as short as possiable..24 hours is my max. This is good for the packs and lessen the fire potential
Most lipos fires are charging issues, user error, or crashes... you can't eliminate the danger 100% but with the right steps you can have a much better chance for succes
I love E power and will never go back to fuel... just have to know what your doing and be prepared
I did just save a plane from a ESC fire with my halon extinguisher.. it was a jet legend 1/6 hawk with 14s 6500 mah... I stopped the fire before it got to my packs. If I hadn't it would have been a total loss
I've have been flying electric power now for 6 years, I have never had a battery fire. But have seen several crashes now with 12s 5000 mah and it was a shock to see that much power go off at once.
I think it would be very smart for every club to clear and area have a club meeting on safety measures... and light off an old pack. Even just a 3s 2200 pack stores an amazing amount of power.
I fly every weekend and many of my friends have never seen a lipo fire, I'm sure they would treat them with much more care if they did.
Here's is a few tips for lipo safety I have picked up over the years.
1. always have a fire extinguisher on hand (Halon is the best and what I carry with me anytime I fly..even at the park)
2. If you have a crash get to the plane quickly with the extinguisher, most of the time the fire takes a few minutes to start
3. If the pack doesn't light up on impact set it in a safe area for 30 minutes at least until you put it in a trash can or car... they can light up delayed
4. Trim any sharp bolts in the plane or cover them with rubber.. the two fires I did see where caused by the packs being impaled on the motor mount bolts sticking through the firewall. I now trim all of mine and cap them
5. Fire is more likely at the begining of the flight when the voltage is at it's highest...as the voltage drops the chance of fire drops and the size of the fire the pack will produce
6. DO NOT BREATH lipo smoke... Lipo smoke mixes with the mositure in your lungs to form an acid that can kill you, stay up wind until it's out.
7. Store all packs at storage charge (3.85 voltsper cell) this reduces the chance of fire and lessens the fire it will make.
8. Charge out doors in a fire safe area
9. Store and transport lipos in fire safe bags, placed in ammo cans that are vented.. drill two large 1/2 hole in the lid and file the sharp edges. Lipos don't need oxygen to burn, if the cans aren't vented they will become a bomb that can through off shrapnel
10. don't store packs fully charged, or at least as short as possiable..24 hours is my max. This is good for the packs and lessen the fire potential
Most lipos fires are charging issues, user error, or crashes... you can't eliminate the danger 100% but with the right steps you can have a much better chance for succes
I love E power and will never go back to fuel... just have to know what your doing and be prepared
I did just save a plane from a ESC fire with my halon extinguisher.. it was a jet legend 1/6 hawk with 14s 6500 mah... I stopped the fire before it got to my packs. If I hadn't it would have been a total loss
12-12-2011, 12:13 PM
#36
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
I think MYTHBUSTERS did a few episodes where they shot bullets through a full gas tank in a car, a propane cylinder, and a full scuba tank. Those guys like to blow things up. I remember that nothing happened to the gas tank because gasoline needs a flame or spark to ignite. Same with the propane tank. But both the propane tank and the scuba tank did burst like a grenade.
So, send your lipo ideas to MYTHBUSTERS ... they will attempt every way to make Lipo's explode or catch fire. Adam gets a kick out of doing things like that.
So, send your lipo ideas to MYTHBUSTERS ... they will attempt every way to make Lipo's explode or catch fire. Adam gets a kick out of doing things like that.
12-12-2011, 12:18 PM
#37
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
ORIGINAL: GerKonig
Mmmm, like it is a good idea to take all drivers to burn a gallon of gas to a safe place with a fire extinguisher? Or people that use gas powered rc models. Maybe burning nitro would teach us something. Then again, maybe I pass...
Gerry
Heck I know people that like blowing up things, and they do it for a living, and they enjoy their work:-)
Mmmm, like it is a good idea to take all drivers to burn a gallon of gas to a safe place with a fire extinguisher? Or people that use gas powered rc models. Maybe burning nitro would teach us something. Then again, maybe I pass...
Gerry
Heck I know people that like blowing up things, and they do it for a living, and they enjoy their work:-)
Really good points Ron, thanks for the info.
Bob
12-12-2011, 12:26 PM
#38
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Would or should someone set a can of kerosine on fire just to see what it will do? How about puncturing a can of propane just to see what it will do?
They charge in the house, store fully charged... really just treat them like a nicad
The word is getting out about safety... but we need to stay on top of it.
12-12-2011, 12:49 PM
#40
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Ron that's an outstanding list!! One that is based on good practice and common sense from your years of experience. Thank you for sharing, it was nice to review some of these.
Great suggestions, right down to being smart about how a plane is assembled without sharp hardware exposed and also the fact that lipos need to be isolated and disposed/made inert properly after a crash if physical damage of any sort is present. All those suggested bullet points are great. I've seen a few problems with motor mount hardware creating issues for club member's and their batteries, for example. Good point about the ammo boxes too for storage and venting. I've also picked up several ammo cases (the surplus metal kind) and lined them with cheap 1/2 inch thick sheet foam from home depot/lowes and use those cases for storage. It's a great organization tool for packs too if you store them in an organized way. As long as the leads can't short out on anything, even other loose battery leads, then a lot of the work on storage is done. The other big part is then keeping them in a way that if one does ignite for whatever reason, the fire is contained and can't spread to anything else.
We don't need waivers or unrealistic panic scenarios to be analyzed to death, we just need a good source of information to permeate so the average AMA type hobby participant can continue to use common sense along with up to date knowledge on what our batteries need in terms of handling precautions.
Great suggestions, right down to being smart about how a plane is assembled without sharp hardware exposed and also the fact that lipos need to be isolated and disposed/made inert properly after a crash if physical damage of any sort is present. All those suggested bullet points are great. I've seen a few problems with motor mount hardware creating issues for club member's and their batteries, for example. Good point about the ammo boxes too for storage and venting. I've also picked up several ammo cases (the surplus metal kind) and lined them with cheap 1/2 inch thick sheet foam from home depot/lowes and use those cases for storage. It's a great organization tool for packs too if you store them in an organized way. As long as the leads can't short out on anything, even other loose battery leads, then a lot of the work on storage is done. The other big part is then keeping them in a way that if one does ignite for whatever reason, the fire is contained and can't spread to anything else.
We don't need waivers or unrealistic panic scenarios to be analyzed to death, we just need a good source of information to permeate so the average AMA type hobby participant can continue to use common sense along with up to date knowledge on what our batteries need in terms of handling precautions.
12-12-2011, 12:51 PM
#41
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Ron, proper LiPo management isn't the point here. I agree, proper LiPo management should be a safety topic but it's not what Eddie posted about. He posted about intentionally starting a LiPo fire just to see what would happen. Where's the safety in that? Where's the proper LiPo management in that? What if one of his kids walked in during this fire and breathed in some of the smoke? There's all kinds of things that could go wrong with intentionally setting LiPos on fire.
Also, you suggested a club should set off a LiPo during a safety meeting as a demo to what can happen. You also stated in point #6 that braeathing LiPo smoke is very hazardous to your health. So, should the club provide breathing masks during the LiPo fire demo?
Kirk
Also, you suggested a club should set off a LiPo during a safety meeting as a demo to what can happen. You also stated in point #6 that braeathing LiPo smoke is very hazardous to your health. So, should the club provide breathing masks during the LiPo fire demo?
Kirk
I think in a club setting you could put the pack on a clear area, with a sheet of tin down. Useing a long extension off the pack ( 100 ft) and have the pack down wind from the members... you could use a switch to cause a dead short and light the pack off. With an extinguisher close by
another thing I should have added:
every club should have the address to the club posted so if you have to call 911 you know where to send them (all my local clubs do this)
12-12-2011, 01:28 PM
#43
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Do you really believe that? Did you read his post? The third paragraph starts with "I have at times tested the abuse tolerance of batteries ..." Does that sound like someone who hasn't seen a LiPo fire before? Does it sound like it was only done once? Come on, there's a safety issue here.
I'd say your blowning things out of proportion.... if Eddie wants to light off a few lipos on his own property to see how they react. I don't see harm in it, that's his business.Eddie is a very smart fellow, as a full scale aviation pilot he has been trained in fire safety.
I'm sure he told eveyone to keep away from the fire... hell he transports them everyday on planes. I'd want to see what I'm dealing with too... it could cost him his life.
What if one of his kids walked in during this fire and breathed in some of the smoke?
(he may not even have kids... I don't know)
What does any of this have to do with the topic? I'm worried about AMA fields not Eddie's backyard
12-12-2011, 01:37 PM
#45
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RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Ron's list is a good one - Thanks Ron.
I think the info that Eddie passed on is good information as well. Thanks for sharing.
I've been lucky that I have not had a lipo fire - yet. I've seen a couple, though. Causing a Lipo to intentionally ignite can be done safely if common sense is used, and is highly educational for others to see that as well. If it causes others to have more respect for what can happen, then that is a good thing.
I think the info that Eddie passed on is good information as well. Thanks for sharing.
I've been lucky that I have not had a lipo fire - yet. I've seen a couple, though. Causing a Lipo to intentionally ignite can be done safely if common sense is used, and is highly educational for others to see that as well. If it causes others to have more respect for what can happen, then that is a good thing.
12-12-2011, 01:42 PM
#46
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Good! We are back to reality. Thank you Ron, Kirk, Bob, Joe, Jack, David, Mike, TopRudder, and everyone else who contributed with good ideas here and is looking to keep things working safely for the betterment of the hobby!! It was a good review for me, I always learn something new here. Now let's go fly.
Now let's go fly.
12-12-2011, 01:55 PM
#47
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RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Oh, I almost forgot to say this reminds me of a scene from the movie "Tommy Boy".
"...that was AWESOME!!!!. Oh, sorry about your plane, Mike".
Hey, I just saw where Horizon has the Habu P-N-P on sale for $199.
"...that was AWESOME!!!!. Oh, sorry about your plane, Mike".
Hey, I just saw where Horizon has the Habu P-N-P on sale for $199.
12-12-2011, 02:15 PM
#48
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Ron's list is a good one - Thanks Ron.
Oh, I almost forgot to say this reminds me of a scene from the movie "Tommy Boy".
"...that was AWESOME!!!!. Oh, sorry about your plane, Mike".
"...that was AWESOME!!!!. Oh, sorry about your plane, Mike".
Chris Farley was the best " that was awesome"
12-12-2011, 02:19 PM
#49
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Hope you don't beat yourself up Mike. It's a human thing nobody gets away with all the time. And your not alone putting a parkflyer rec. in a plane to big and maybe even to fast. The good thing is you learned from your mistake and realized it right away. Experience in the field is what you have gained.
12-12-2011, 02:38 PM
#50
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RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Eddie,
I apologize for letting the situtation get out of hand. I personally have nothing against you. I felt that you were subtly attacking my personal experience with Thunder Power batteries and things spiraled out of control. I have no affiliation with Thunder Power and I should have stated my experience and let it go at that. My apologies.
Kirk
I apologize for letting the situtation get out of hand. I personally have nothing against you. I felt that you were subtly attacking my personal experience with Thunder Power batteries and things spiraled out of control. I have no affiliation with Thunder Power and I should have stated my experience and let it go at that. My apologies.
Kirk