So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
12-13-2011, 09:37 PM
#76
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
ORIGINAL: k_sonn
Great Ron. I follow what the manufacturer of the battery recommends, not what some guy who tests batteries as a hobby says. Each to his own.
Great Ron. I follow what the manufacturer of the battery recommends, not what some guy who tests batteries as a hobby says. Each to his own.
ORIGINAL: k_sonn
Beta testers are cheap labor. We employ them all of the time. Cheap labor expert though.
Beta testers are cheap labor. We employ them all of the time. Cheap labor expert though.
Kirk, you have not acquitted yourself nor the company you represent well....
12-13-2011, 10:20 PM
#77
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RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
ORIGINAL: sideshow
Kirk, you have not acquitted yourself nor the company you represent well....
ORIGINAL: k_sonn
Great Ron. I follow what the manufacturer of the battery recommends, not what some guy who tests batteries as a hobby says. Each to his own.
Great Ron. I follow what the manufacturer of the battery recommends, not what some guy who tests batteries as a hobby says. Each to his own.
ORIGINAL: k_sonn
Beta testers are cheap labor. We employ them all of the time. Cheap labor <> expert though.
Beta testers are cheap labor. We employ them all of the time. Cheap labor <> expert though.
Kirk, you have not acquitted yourself nor the company you represent well....
12-14-2011, 02:55 AM
#78
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Question for Ron and others- the halon extinguishers seem relatively expensive and are not so great for the environment, totally banned in some countries. Are there other extinguisers you would recommend? (I do not fly turbines). Preferably one that would not soak the plane in fluid or foam. I read a little about the different types but it was not clear to me which ones could be used on Lipo fires and which ones would leave your plane intact.
12-14-2011, 06:17 AM
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RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
ORIGINAL: Mike873
Question for Ron and others- the halon extinguishers seem relatively expensive and are not so great for the environment, totally banned in some countries. Are there other extinguisers you would recommend? (I do not fly turbines). Preferably one that would not soak the plane in fluid or foam. I read a little about the different types but it was not clear to me which ones could be used on Lipo fires and which ones would leave your plane intact.
Question for Ron and others- the halon extinguishers seem relatively expensive and are not so great for the environment, totally banned in some countries. Are there other extinguisers you would recommend? (I do not fly turbines). Preferably one that would not soak the plane in fluid or foam. I read a little about the different types but it was not clear to me which ones could be used on Lipo fires and which ones would leave your plane intact.
I'm no expert, but as best as I can tell a lithium battery falls under class D (combustible metals). From what I can find, certain dry powder extinguishers are rated for class D fires, but could possibly ruin other parts of the model. They don't make halon extinguishers anymore, but there are replacements called halocarbon or halotron - and they are expensive as well as not being rated for this class of fire. Neither is CO2, for that matter. I'm thinking the best thing to extinguish a Lipo fire would be a bucket of sand. Save the extinguishers for the secondary fire started by the battery (airframe, surrounding dry grass, etc).
12-14-2011, 02:23 PM
#80
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
There is conflicting information on what type of extinguisher is best for a Lipoly battery of the type we use in hobby applications. I've read in many places that the hobby type lipoly batteries do not actually have enough combustible lithium in them to classify them purely as a combustible metal fire (Cat D). And that you can treat them as a solid like a type A fire. If this is true, then any ABC fire extinguisher will help. From what I've learned from personal experience, my garden hose (a simple type A extinguisher) worked like a champ and the fire was out instantly once I snuffed and cooled the battery packs off. Very little water was required to do this initially, but I had to use a little more a few times after the fire was out to keep the pack cool and prevent re ignition.
Fires need 3 things to burn. Fuel, Oxygen and heat. All you have to do is permanently take one thing away, and the fire is controlled.
Type A fires are essentially solids like wood, paper, plastic, etc. You can smother them like with using CO2 or Halon (type B agent for liquids, gasses, etc), but type A fires will re-ignite soon after the agent dissipates due to the fact that the reaction is still causing excessive heat, or excessive heat still remains in the materials. So as soon as you have oxygen back, it will re-ignite. So you must cool the source or maintain a smothering barrier over the source. That narrows the fire fighting down to a smothering agent like a dry powder or dirt or sand or whatever. Using water, in order to cool the source below the flash point of the surrounding plastic materials and cooling the source, will also drastically slow the chemical reaction to the point where you can "put it out" long enough to move the battery to a bucket of water where it will be stabilized or a pile of sand where it can stay smothered and peter itself out. A water bucket would obviously be better.
Some guys have put damaged airplanes and batteries in their car while they flew another plane. Ten minutes later their whole car was engulfed in flames. I think word got out among the electric crowd pretty fast, when we were all learning about these batteries. But we have new members of the "lipo club" every day so it's good to keep telling these stories even though many of us get sick of hearing them. Many more just haven't heard the stories yet, so hopefully we can still tell them to the new guys so they don't have to re-invent the wheel.
There was some confusing data out there about ice that caused confusion over weather water was appropriate for fighting lipo fires. The deal is, don't use ice, as ice will have a lot of air in between the cubes and it will insulate the battery and the battery will pop / explode. But, that doesn't mean don't use water!! Water is the best "simple" extinguisher of this type of fire, even if it's not always available at a club field in mass quantitues. A bottle of water, like Evian, will suffice though - and it will be enough to put out a localized lipoly fire if it hasn't spread to grass or brush. A big bottle of water is a great "lipoly battery extinguisher" and you can drink it after you land your last airplane.
Bottom line. If you don't put out the battery fire, you can't move the battery safely. If you can't move the battery safely, you will burn the surrounding area including the model to nothing but ashes and possibly spread the fire to the surrounding area. So you will "probably" have to use a dry powder/sand/dirt or water first, and that may well damage/destroy anything resembling a model airplane in order to get the battery away from the model. Either way you will not have an airplane left if the lipos are allowed to catch fire.
So if you have a crash or suspect a damaged battery for whatever reason, separate the batteries from the model and take them to an inert place. Keep an eye on them. And then when you can, soak them. If they catch first, then the task of deciding what you can save that's near them becomes less an issue than putting the fire out in the first place.
Fires need 3 things to burn. Fuel, Oxygen and heat. All you have to do is permanently take one thing away, and the fire is controlled.
Type A fires are essentially solids like wood, paper, plastic, etc. You can smother them like with using CO2 or Halon (type B agent for liquids, gasses, etc), but type A fires will re-ignite soon after the agent dissipates due to the fact that the reaction is still causing excessive heat, or excessive heat still remains in the materials. So as soon as you have oxygen back, it will re-ignite. So you must cool the source or maintain a smothering barrier over the source. That narrows the fire fighting down to a smothering agent like a dry powder or dirt or sand or whatever. Using water, in order to cool the source below the flash point of the surrounding plastic materials and cooling the source, will also drastically slow the chemical reaction to the point where you can "put it out" long enough to move the battery to a bucket of water where it will be stabilized or a pile of sand where it can stay smothered and peter itself out. A water bucket would obviously be better.
Some guys have put damaged airplanes and batteries in their car while they flew another plane. Ten minutes later their whole car was engulfed in flames. I think word got out among the electric crowd pretty fast, when we were all learning about these batteries. But we have new members of the "lipo club" every day so it's good to keep telling these stories even though many of us get sick of hearing them. Many more just haven't heard the stories yet, so hopefully we can still tell them to the new guys so they don't have to re-invent the wheel.
There was some confusing data out there about ice that caused confusion over weather water was appropriate for fighting lipo fires. The deal is, don't use ice, as ice will have a lot of air in between the cubes and it will insulate the battery and the battery will pop / explode. But, that doesn't mean don't use water!! Water is the best "simple" extinguisher of this type of fire, even if it's not always available at a club field in mass quantitues. A bottle of water, like Evian, will suffice though - and it will be enough to put out a localized lipoly fire if it hasn't spread to grass or brush. A big bottle of water is a great "lipoly battery extinguisher" and you can drink it after you land your last airplane.
Bottom line. If you don't put out the battery fire, you can't move the battery safely. If you can't move the battery safely, you will burn the surrounding area including the model to nothing but ashes and possibly spread the fire to the surrounding area. So you will "probably" have to use a dry powder/sand/dirt or water first, and that may well damage/destroy anything resembling a model airplane in order to get the battery away from the model. Either way you will not have an airplane left if the lipos are allowed to catch fire.
So if you have a crash or suspect a damaged battery for whatever reason, separate the batteries from the model and take them to an inert place. Keep an eye on them. And then when you can, soak them. If they catch first, then the task of deciding what you can save that's near them becomes less an issue than putting the fire out in the first place.
12-14-2011, 03:45 PM
#81
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
I think Eddie is spot on..if the lipo is not in the plane. But.....
Here is my thought process on why I went Halon (which you can still buy as far as I'm aware)
If my plane goes in hard enough to damaged the packs and ignite them, it's a loss. I'm only there to contain and let the lipos burn out. The Halon will put out weeds, fiberglass, pretty much everything but the lipos. (but may help keep the flames down)... the lipos will burn out very fast.. a couple minutes tops
The big reason for me with halon was ESC fires.. which I've seen more common than lipo fires. I was able to save my Jet Legend 1/6 EDF Hawk a few weeks ago when the Spin 200 burst into flame on the tarmac. I was able to quickly put out the fire, stop it from spreading to my lipos... and did zero damage to my electronics in the plane. There was nothing to clean up from the extingusher... if it was sand, dry powered, or water I would have had a mess
So I know that Halon and Haltron are not cheap, but I feel they are the best option for electric model aircraft. Take my fire for instance, that was with 14s 6500 mah... it can shock and kill you. I would not want to spray water on it and have to try and unplug it after
14s has voltage high enough to break dry skin... I would imagine 12s could break wet skin. With these packs offering 300 amp burst and no breaker... you could be dead.
So Halon is the clear winner for me, if you can't find Halon as Eddie said Haltron looks like a good replacement
Here is a link to more info:
http://halonfireextinguisher.net/
http://www.google.com/products?q=hal...nguisher&hl=en
basic facts about halon:
http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_2.htm
Here is my thought process on why I went Halon (which you can still buy as far as I'm aware)
If my plane goes in hard enough to damaged the packs and ignite them, it's a loss. I'm only there to contain and let the lipos burn out. The Halon will put out weeds, fiberglass, pretty much everything but the lipos. (but may help keep the flames down)... the lipos will burn out very fast.. a couple minutes tops
The big reason for me with halon was ESC fires.. which I've seen more common than lipo fires. I was able to save my Jet Legend 1/6 EDF Hawk a few weeks ago when the Spin 200 burst into flame on the tarmac. I was able to quickly put out the fire, stop it from spreading to my lipos... and did zero damage to my electronics in the plane. There was nothing to clean up from the extingusher... if it was sand, dry powered, or water I would have had a mess
So I know that Halon and Haltron are not cheap, but I feel they are the best option for electric model aircraft. Take my fire for instance, that was with 14s 6500 mah... it can shock and kill you. I would not want to spray water on it and have to try and unplug it after
14s has voltage high enough to break dry skin... I would imagine 12s could break wet skin. With these packs offering 300 amp burst and no breaker... you could be dead.So Halon is the clear winner for me, if you can't find Halon as Eddie said Haltron looks like a good replacement
Here is a link to more info:
http://halonfireextinguisher.net/
http://www.google.com/products?q=hal...nguisher&hl=en
basic facts about halon:
http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_2.htm
12-14-2011, 03:54 PM
#82
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
found some good deals on Ebay for Halon.
I got mine about 4 years ago and it was cheap... (didn't know I got such a good deal on a big extingusher)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amerex-C352T...item2eb17fb962
http://www.ebay.com/itm/set-two-halo...item256a553286
I got mine about 4 years ago and it was cheap... (didn't know I got such a good deal on a big extingusher)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amerex-C352T...item2eb17fb962
http://www.ebay.com/itm/set-two-halo...item256a553286
12-14-2011, 04:18 PM
#83
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Great points Ron. Really great. Enough CO2 will douse the fire just long enough to get stuff unhooked but be careful that stuff can really, really flare and pop. Of note, I'm sure you know Ron but maybe others don't, Halon and smoke is toxic to breathe and also CO2 takes away the oxygen so you can pass out with too much. It's all good points to consider. Sounds like you have been "in the fight" with this stuff with ESC fires. The one thing about fires like this, in small quarters and high power stuff, that is not really understood until one is in the predicament is how fast you need the tools to put it out when you need them. No time to be running back to the car for it. It should be at the ready on the flight line.
12-14-2011, 07:08 PM
#84
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
Halon and smoke is toxic to breathe
You are so right I had the extingusher right next to me on the flight line, if I I had to run to my car the party would have been over for that plane
Here is a clip from some of the info I posted on Halon:
Halons are low-toxicity, chemically stable compounds that have been used for fire and explosion protection from early in the last century. Halon has proven to be an extremely effective fire suppressant. Halon is clean (i.e., leaves no residue) and is remarkably safe for human exposure. Halon is a highly effective agent for firefighting in closed passenger carrying areas. Due to its effectiveness and relatively low toxicity, the FAA continues to recommend or require Halon extinguishers for use on commercial aircraft.
Extensive toxicity evaluations have been compiled by nationally recognized United States medical laboratories and institutions on Halon 1301 and Halon 1211. These evaluations have shown that Halon 1301 and Halon 1211 are two of the safest clean extinguishing agents available. Dual Halon concentrations of about 5% by volume in air are adequate to extinguish fires of most combustible materials. This concentration is equivalent to emptying twelve 2.5 lb. units in a closed room of 1000 cubic feet, which would be highly unlikely.
Extensive toxicity evaluations have been compiled by nationally recognized United States medical laboratories and institutions on Halon 1301 and Halon 1211. These evaluations have shown that Halon 1301 and Halon 1211 are two of the safest clean extinguishing agents available. Dual Halon concentrations of about 5% by volume in air are adequate to extinguish fires of most combustible materials. This concentration is equivalent to emptying twelve 2.5 lb. units in a closed room of 1000 cubic feet, which would be highly unlikely.
More info and source:
http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/support_faq_2.htm
12-15-2011, 03:36 PM
#88
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
ORIGINAL: k_sonn
I'm in the software industry.
I'm in the software industry.
12-15-2011, 03:52 PM
#89
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RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
ORIGINAL: Selleri
You know what the say... There are only two industries that refer to their customers as "users".
ORIGINAL: k_sonn
I'm in the software industry.
I'm in the software industry.
12-15-2011, 03:56 PM
#90
RE: So you think your EDF is safer than a turbine
ORIGINAL: k_sonn
It sounds like you're in one of those industries also
ORIGINAL: Selleri
You know what the say... There are only two industries that refer to their customers as ''users''.
You know what the say... There are only two industries that refer to their customers as ''users''.
