Firebird Paint
02-25-2012, 07:17 AM
#56
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: Firebird Paint
Here is how I do it. There certainly is more than one way but this has worked for me for many years.
First I assume that the clear is pretty smooth to start. This is where your application really counts, no amount of sanding and buffing can cure a really bad, peeled clear application. I also assume that the clear was reduced per the manufacturers instructions, i.e. not over reduced. There really isn't a need for that if the clear is applied correctly with the right equipment setup and technique.
After spraying I will allow the finish to set up for a day or two. This gives the clear time to cure and tighten up so that the polish I give it stays. Polish too early and the clear can lose a bit of its gloss and mirror look. That's because as paint cures, it shrinks a bit. The other side of that coin is that you don't want to let the clear sit too long or it will become too hard to easily polish. This isn't a hunk of steel you are working with but rather delicate in comparison. Bearing down on the buffer can create hot spots that may show up as the internal structure starting to "imprint" itself in the finish. The goal of this process is for the actual buffing time to be as short and mild as possible to the finish. So as all of us builders know it's all about the sanding, and lots of it.
Generally you want to start sanding the clear with as mild and least abrasive of paper that you can, in my case 2000 grit. Remember all the sand scratches you are about to put in have to be polished out so don't make it any more difficult than need be. Find a soft backing pad, wrap the paper around and have at it. Try to sand in as straight of a line that you can, no circular motions if possible. When it comes time to polish the pad is rotating, you want the pad working across the scratch, not with it. That gives you the most efficient polishing action and quickest polishing time. It's pretty easy to see when you have sanded enough, watch the peel flatten as you sand. Dry the area every so often to check your progress looking for small shiny spots. If you see them, keep going until they disappear. Once you have made the decision to sand and polish this step has to be thorough, a polished half sanded finish looks worse than a finish that isn't polished at all. The smooth high gloss surface shows all of these missed spots easily. I finish sanding with a product from 3M called Trizact. Insanely expensive but gives you a semi polished surface before you even start. It is more of a foam product with the abrasive grain bonded to one side. Three thousand grit. Just dampen a piece with some water and sand slightly across in direction to your previous sanding.
The Firebird red and blue are candy colors. The red is three coats of the base color followed by three of the candy, the blue was three of the base and one of the candy. This additional millage creates a step in the clear, unavoidable - just the way it is. This is where function wins out over form. The sanding of the clear is meant to minimize and smooth the step between the pearl white and the colors, but not eliminate it. You can't make it completely smooth, there just isn't enough clear there to do it. In the car world the clear would be block sanded flat and then re-cleared. Then you can flat sand the finish completely eliminating the step giving you a perfectly flat transition. On a plane though the function equates to weight, the form to just how much of a step you can tolerate. If the blue and red had been solid, non-metallic colors the step I could completely sand away in the clear. There is only so much clear in total on the jet, sand too far trying to get rid of the step can expose the base color on that razor edge. When you polish the heat of the process will soften the color and could smear across the finish. You are now done and will begin to cry at best or shoot someone at worst. The goal on those transition areas is to smooth the ridge, not eliminate it. You are never sure just how much clear millage wise is on that area so it's a game of Russian Roulette, don't push it.
The initial polishing is done with my DeWalt buffer and a small air polisher. If I can reliably hold onto the part I'll use the big boy, faster and more consistent polish. I use 3M extra cut compound using foam pads for the buffing. The foam pads come in different cuts from coarse to fine. The size of the foam cell is what determines how aggressive the pad works. Compound using a slow speed using little product. Too high a speed just creates heat and dries out the compound creating more marks and runs the risk of cutting through. It's almost impossible to "burn" your way through the clear unless you are really bearing down or on an edge. Edges kind of take care of themselves, don't sand them and stay away while polishing. Clear loves to flow around a curved surface so there really shouldn't be any need to sand and polish them. Buff until ALL of the sanding scratches are gone. The next steps are meant to eliminate the compounding scratches, nothing more so make certain your wet sanding marks are gone. Use just a small amount of compound, a little goes a long way. Too much and you tend to just smear product around making a mess.
Swap out the buffing pads for polishing pads. These are softer than the cutting pads meant to work with polishing glaze. Again use a slow speed and take your time. The finish should now look like a million bucks. For light colors it is very possible you could have stopped with the compounding step but doing the glazing steps really amp up the finish depth. You can continue on with still softer of a pad and an extremely mild glaze for that perfect finish. Take it as far as you want. Just make sure that between every step you clean up all the residue before moving on to the next level and never use the same pad for the progressively finer polishes. You will contaminate the pads making the process very difficult if not impossible to do.
I don't bother with a wax, don't really see the need. But if you like have at it. Wait a while though before waxing, the clear needs some time yet to fully cure. Waxing seals the surface extending that process considerably. Treat the final result just as you would the finish on your car. You wouldn't take Windex and paper towels to the finish on your Benz, don't do it here. Blow dust away, use a micro fiber towel and water based cleaners. Most car care companies make detailing spray that you can use that is safe for the finish, never use something solvent based. Clean up kero splashes as soon as you can or the finish could (and will) discolor.
Hope this helps,
Dan
First I assume that the clear is pretty smooth to start. This is where your application really counts, no amount of sanding and buffing can cure a really bad, peeled clear application. I also assume that the clear was reduced per the manufacturers instructions, i.e. not over reduced. There really isn't a need for that if the clear is applied correctly with the right equipment setup and technique.
After spraying I will allow the finish to set up for a day or two. This gives the clear time to cure and tighten up so that the polish I give it stays. Polish too early and the clear can lose a bit of its gloss and mirror look. That's because as paint cures, it shrinks a bit. The other side of that coin is that you don't want to let the clear sit too long or it will become too hard to easily polish. This isn't a hunk of steel you are working with but rather delicate in comparison. Bearing down on the buffer can create hot spots that may show up as the internal structure starting to "imprint" itself in the finish. The goal of this process is for the actual buffing time to be as short and mild as possible to the finish. So as all of us builders know it's all about the sanding, and lots of it.
Generally you want to start sanding the clear with as mild and least abrasive of paper that you can, in my case 2000 grit. Remember all the sand scratches you are about to put in have to be polished out so don't make it any more difficult than need be. Find a soft backing pad, wrap the paper around and have at it. Try to sand in as straight of a line that you can, no circular motions if possible. When it comes time to polish the pad is rotating, you want the pad working across the scratch, not with it. That gives you the most efficient polishing action and quickest polishing time. It's pretty easy to see when you have sanded enough, watch the peel flatten as you sand. Dry the area every so often to check your progress looking for small shiny spots. If you see them, keep going until they disappear. Once you have made the decision to sand and polish this step has to be thorough, a polished half sanded finish looks worse than a finish that isn't polished at all. The smooth high gloss surface shows all of these missed spots easily. I finish sanding with a product from 3M called Trizact. Insanely expensive but gives you a semi polished surface before you even start. It is more of a foam product with the abrasive grain bonded to one side. Three thousand grit. Just dampen a piece with some water and sand slightly across in direction to your previous sanding.
The Firebird red and blue are candy colors. The red is three coats of the base color followed by three of the candy, the blue was three of the base and one of the candy. This additional millage creates a step in the clear, unavoidable - just the way it is. This is where function wins out over form. The sanding of the clear is meant to minimize and smooth the step between the pearl white and the colors, but not eliminate it. You can't make it completely smooth, there just isn't enough clear there to do it. In the car world the clear would be block sanded flat and then re-cleared. Then you can flat sand the finish completely eliminating the step giving you a perfectly flat transition. On a plane though the function equates to weight, the form to just how much of a step you can tolerate. If the blue and red had been solid, non-metallic colors the step I could completely sand away in the clear. There is only so much clear in total on the jet, sand too far trying to get rid of the step can expose the base color on that razor edge. When you polish the heat of the process will soften the color and could smear across the finish. You are now done and will begin to cry at best or shoot someone at worst. The goal on those transition areas is to smooth the ridge, not eliminate it. You are never sure just how much clear millage wise is on that area so it's a game of Russian Roulette, don't push it.
The initial polishing is done with my DeWalt buffer and a small air polisher. If I can reliably hold onto the part I'll use the big boy, faster and more consistent polish. I use 3M extra cut compound using foam pads for the buffing. The foam pads come in different cuts from coarse to fine. The size of the foam cell is what determines how aggressive the pad works. Compound using a slow speed using little product. Too high a speed just creates heat and dries out the compound creating more marks and runs the risk of cutting through. It's almost impossible to "burn" your way through the clear unless you are really bearing down or on an edge. Edges kind of take care of themselves, don't sand them and stay away while polishing. Clear loves to flow around a curved surface so there really shouldn't be any need to sand and polish them. Buff until ALL of the sanding scratches are gone. The next steps are meant to eliminate the compounding scratches, nothing more so make certain your wet sanding marks are gone. Use just a small amount of compound, a little goes a long way. Too much and you tend to just smear product around making a mess.
Swap out the buffing pads for polishing pads. These are softer than the cutting pads meant to work with polishing glaze. Again use a slow speed and take your time. The finish should now look like a million bucks. For light colors it is very possible you could have stopped with the compounding step but doing the glazing steps really amp up the finish depth. You can continue on with still softer of a pad and an extremely mild glaze for that perfect finish. Take it as far as you want. Just make sure that between every step you clean up all the residue before moving on to the next level and never use the same pad for the progressively finer polishes. You will contaminate the pads making the process very difficult if not impossible to do.
I don't bother with a wax, don't really see the need. But if you like have at it. Wait a while though before waxing, the clear needs some time yet to fully cure. Waxing seals the surface extending that process considerably. Treat the final result just as you would the finish on your car. You wouldn't take Windex and paper towels to the finish on your Benz, don't do it here. Blow dust away, use a micro fiber towel and water based cleaners. Most car care companies make detailing spray that you can use that is safe for the finish, never use something solvent based. Clean up kero splashes as soon as you can or the finish could (and will) discolor.
Hope this helps,
Dan
02-25-2012, 09:20 AM
#57
RE: Firebird Paint
Those Trizact pads are awesome but you're right, ridiculously expensive!!!!!! Especially if you are buying one at a time, I pay $100 for a box of 15 up here, keep trying to find them cheaper but I haven't year....... The 3M polish and pads are also awesome, those bottles of polish go a LONG way if you're not wasting them. You could probably polish 20 firebirds with one bottle of the extra cut and one of the swirl remover.
The other thing Dan that I thought I'd mention is on the buffer, Keep the RPM as low as the buffer will go, never try to convert an angle grinder into a buffer (I've seen many people try this simply becaues they look the same). I run about 600rpm for buffing, keeps the surface cool and greatly reduces the risk of burning an edge.
The window of cure time you mention is also very important but different with every clear. I found the PPG 2001 or 2021 clears need to be buffed between 36 and 48 hours for the nicest polish (assuming correct temps and humidity during curing) but the new Omni MP262 clear (VOC compliant) really loves to be sanded and polished after about 4 days of curing. The older MC260 wanted to be polished roughly 24 hours after, much longer and it was to hard to pull scratches out, any sooner and it was to soft. The RM DC95 clear was just a little longer than the 2001 or 2021, and the new PPG ECS700 clears like to be done after about 48 hours but not longer than 72 hours (I don't actually like the new PPG clear, the new Omni sprays, polishes and looks better).
I am so glad you mentioned that there is no need to overreduce the clear, that leads to nothing more than product instability, possible adhesion issues, and it just doesn't look as nice, proper spraying technique and good equipment make a much bigger difference than over reducing to "save weight".
Great job on the Firebird my friend, That jet doesn't seem like a difficult bird to paint, but there is a lot more surface area than one thinks!
Jeremy
The other thing Dan that I thought I'd mention is on the buffer, Keep the RPM as low as the buffer will go, never try to convert an angle grinder into a buffer (I've seen many people try this simply becaues they look the same). I run about 600rpm for buffing, keeps the surface cool and greatly reduces the risk of burning an edge.
The window of cure time you mention is also very important but different with every clear. I found the PPG 2001 or 2021 clears need to be buffed between 36 and 48 hours for the nicest polish (assuming correct temps and humidity during curing) but the new Omni MP262 clear (VOC compliant) really loves to be sanded and polished after about 4 days of curing. The older MC260 wanted to be polished roughly 24 hours after, much longer and it was to hard to pull scratches out, any sooner and it was to soft. The RM DC95 clear was just a little longer than the 2001 or 2021, and the new PPG ECS700 clears like to be done after about 48 hours but not longer than 72 hours (I don't actually like the new PPG clear, the new Omni sprays, polishes and looks better).
I am so glad you mentioned that there is no need to overreduce the clear, that leads to nothing more than product instability, possible adhesion issues, and it just doesn't look as nice, proper spraying technique and good equipment make a much bigger difference than over reducing to "save weight".
Great job on the Firebird my friend, That jet doesn't seem like a difficult bird to paint, but there is a lot more surface area than one thinks!
Jeremy
02-25-2012, 09:35 AM
#58
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: Firebird Paint
Thanks Jeremy for turning me on to the foam pads for compounding, I'll never go back to buffing with a sheep again! What a difference!
I want to experiment with some different, less expensive clears from PPG's Shopline (Omni) brands. I've been using DCU2021 and on the Firebird, DC3000. But at $300 until you are all said and done for a gallon kit I'd like to change that if you know what I mean....
Thanks for the compliments, means a lot coming from you.
Dan
I want to experiment with some different, less expensive clears from PPG's Shopline (Omni) brands. I've been using DCU2021 and on the Firebird, DC3000. But at $300 until you are all said and done for a gallon kit I'd like to change that if you know what I mean....
Thanks for the compliments, means a lot coming from you.
Dan
02-25-2012, 01:04 PM
#60
RE: Firebird Paint
ORIGINAL: SPLIT S
Thanks Jeremy for turning me on to the foam pads for compounding, I'll never go back to buffing with a sheep again! What a difference!
I want to experiment with some different, less expensive clears from PPG's Shopline (Omni) brands. I've been using DCU2021 and on the Firebird, DC3000. But at $300 until you are all said and done for a gallon kit I'd like to change that if you know what I mean....
Thanks for the compliments, means a lot coming from you.
Dan
Thanks Jeremy for turning me on to the foam pads for compounding, I'll never go back to buffing with a sheep again! What a difference!
I want to experiment with some different, less expensive clears from PPG's Shopline (Omni) brands. I've been using DCU2021 and on the Firebird, DC3000. But at $300 until you are all said and done for a gallon kit I'd like to change that if you know what I mean....
Thanks for the compliments, means a lot coming from you.
Dan
Hi Dan,
The DCU clears are no longer available to us in Canada anymore, but when they were, I think up here I was paying around $450 for a kit. The new Omni MC262 clear with the MH266 hardener (which is the spot repair/fast hardener, fine for airplanes MH267 if you want a slower cure) is around $150 for a kit, probably less for you in the US. You can reduce it one part to flow out a little nicer, but I've found with spraying through my Sata RP3000 at about 15psi at the tip, the clear mixed 4:1 with no reducer flows out very well already. As I mentioned earlier, I think that clear actually looks nicer than the new ECS700 as well which is I guess the VOC compliant replacement for the 2021 and 2042 clears. I sprayed my Harley with the new Ceramic clear that PPG has which was absolutely awesome to use, but it's about $600 for a kit and has a much higher film build, not really useful for airplanes.
I never did understand why people liked buffing with wool pads, I remember the first job I had was working in an auto detail shop and we used wool pads, I tore the antenna off of a very expensive Mercedes when a stray strand wrapped around it, that was an expensive oops, but getting rid of swirl marks, and the high risk of burning through, I just never got it, not to mention the mess that wool pads make!
With the 3M polishes and the trizact pad, you can do you first sanding with 1500 grit paper too, it will cut faster for you than your 2000 grit and the 3000 grit trizact will pull those scratches out no problem. With the extra cut compound I've ever pulled 800 grit scratches out of clear, though it gets pretty warm, on fiberglass you'll shrink the gel coat back and see the weave if you try that.
02-25-2012, 03:18 PM
#61
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: Firebird Paint
Thanks Jeremy, have to look up the Omni clear and give it a shot.
Here are a few picks to show what the ever so expensive Trizact can do. The first picture is of the final sanded clear finishing with Trizact. The clear already has a semi polish to it making buffing all that much more easy to do. The next two pictures show an area after the first pass with the DeWalt using the extra cut compound. The last two show the finished compounded area after the second pass. Each pass was under ten seconds, well under. The point is that although nobody likes to sand, (unless there is a pretty blonde with the squirt bottle helping), being thorough with the sanding, using quality stuff (even the insane Trizact) makes polishing relatively painless.
Dan
Here are a few picks to show what the ever so expensive Trizact can do. The first picture is of the final sanded clear finishing with Trizact. The clear already has a semi polish to it making buffing all that much more easy to do. The next two pictures show an area after the first pass with the DeWalt using the extra cut compound. The last two show the finished compounded area after the second pass. Each pass was under ten seconds, well under. The point is that although nobody likes to sand, (unless there is a pretty blonde with the squirt bottle helping), being thorough with the sanding, using quality stuff (even the insane Trizact) makes polishing relatively painless.
Dan
03-08-2012, 06:41 PM
#67
RE: Firebird Paint
Would you all look at this amazing masterpiece.I am truly humbled.Those of you that know me,know I will never be intimidated by an airplane,but if ever I was reluctant to fly something,this would be it.There are no words.Dan did this because he's my friend.Not for money,or recognition,but to do what he could,to see me fulfilled in the hobby.
This is the nicest jet I've ever seen,nevermind owned,and it will fly,and fly well.In my mind,the only way I can honor what he's done,is to provide you a video of this magnificent machine going by low and fast,on the knife,with the sun glinting off that amazing job he did.That will happen,if i have anything to say about it.Dan,no words for my gratitude,my friend.I only hope I can do it the justice of showing it as it deserves.You are the best,and I love you to death,
Erik
This is the nicest jet I've ever seen,nevermind owned,and it will fly,and fly well.In my mind,the only way I can honor what he's done,is to provide you a video of this magnificent machine going by low and fast,on the knife,with the sun glinting off that amazing job he did.That will happen,if i have anything to say about it.Dan,no words for my gratitude,my friend.I only hope I can do it the justice of showing it as it deserves.You are the best,and I love you to death,
Erik
