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Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

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Old 12-30-2011, 05:30 AM
  #1
ply68
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Default Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

I've been flying for 15 years now and want to get into the Jet Turbines. I really want to get a nice looking jet and avoid having to go through a trainer. I've flown warbirds and edf. From your experience, is it necessary for me to start with a turbine trainer? Thanks
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Old 12-30-2011, 05:40 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

If you feel confident you don't 'need' a trainer, then you will be fine. I know several people who started in scale jets, including me, that had no trouble transitioning to turbines.

... I had no ducted fan experience prior to turbines.
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:39 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

The problem is no one knows how well you fly, there are some guys at our field who have been flying for 20years on all sorts of airframes including war birds, but if I had the power I would put them back on dual, only you know how well you can fly and if you can cope with that situation that may catch you out, in truth turbines are not that different once off the ground, just faster at the top end and slower to respond at the bottom end, you obviously have some reservations about your own ability because you have asked the question, why not get in touch with someone who fly's turbines and see if you can get on a buddy box with them, then you will have first hand experience and be able make up your own mind.

Mike
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Old 12-30-2011, 06:49 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

Not to forget the trainers are for learning to run the turbine too. Even with autostart if you do it wrong you can have fire where you least expected it. with the engine outside a hot start really does't matter.
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:15 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

Henke

Not all trainers have the engine outside, but your point on learning to operate a turbine is well made and is something to take into consideration, although a lot of us started on our own as I and a lot of others where the first in our clubs to have one, I don't want to over egg this, but safety and discipline is necessary in all operations entailing IC engines none more so than with a turbine, but if you have progressed through the various forms of model flying, small IC up to large petrol IC without major incident then a certain amount of discipline is already ingrained into your normal start up and rigging procedures, you may not know or think you have procedures, but you do, like that little look to ensure the safety pin is in the fire extinguisher when you put it away in the back of the car, things like that.

Only the original poster knows how well they can cope with all the different flight requirements of a particular model, their best bet is to get to know someone with experience and let them advise them after they have demonstrated their ability level.

Mike

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Old 12-30-2011, 07:16 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

...my Boomerang made my first jet flight memorable by catching fire in the air
because of a bad flameout. It glided nicely down and we put the fire out with co2.
Trainers have their advantages. But surely You can get an Ultra Flash and determine
whether it is a trainer or not by the speed its flown...
TP.
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:22 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

Take a look at the ModellbauUSA Tornado Jet Trainer.  Looks superb, turbine outside, flies fast with superb slow flying/landing characteristics

Ian
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Old 12-30-2011, 01:51 PM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ply68

I've been flying for 15 years now and want to get into the Jet Turbines. I really want to get a nice looking jet and avoid having to go through a trainer. I've flown warbirds and edf. From your experience, is it necessary for me to start with a turbine trainer? Thanks

there are enough jet fliers in your area that are just damn good ole boys that if you venture down to the field you can most likely get a little buddy cord time to see if you are up to a sport/scale jet. you may also find that even if your skills are up to it, some of the trainer airframes are just a ball to fly, i love flying my kit build reaction 54 so much a man would be hard pressed to buy it at any sort of reasonable price.

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Old 12-30-2011, 02:51 PM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

PLY38, It also depends on how much you are willing to spend. If you are into a very good sport jet then i would reccomend a BVM Bandit ARF. It was my first plane of choice when i first started with the turbines and it has a very good flight envelope. It will fly slow and it will fly fast but it will also be one very pleasing air plane for you. I have had two of them now and it is one that i fly every weekend and i have never had to touch it since the first day they flew as long as you follow the instructions you can get many years of flying out of it.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:42 PM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

Not necessary, but the experience you will gain is invaluable. Beating up kangaroos, bobcats, and kingcats gave me experiences that I will always use.
Besides that, they all flew great and were a ton of fun!
Scott
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:54 PM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

Hi

I also did 15 years of flying experience like you and everibodey called me crazy, cause I started with a F18F, 3 years ago. It all went ok, but you can always choose the safe way. In the end will only depend on you. Sorry, but I hate Boomerangs[8D]. Also know guys that had many, many flights with Boomerangs and never went fine with scale jets. It will only depend on your skills and experience as a pilot and knowing about jets also help.

Good luck

Nuno
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:37 PM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

The only thing i can say is it depends on the individual,,,,, Meaning that i have seen a couple very capable pilots that turned to turbine's that
had bad experience due to "Nerves". The Trainer jets are a good step to overcome the jitters that sometimes come from the new, first time outing
of a flame throwing engine.
Ya my boomerang is not the greatest looking bird on the block but it sure is one of the nicest performing airframes out there from take off to landing.
That said, now when this pilot moves to a more advanced airframe the nerves are a lot less likely to make the brain go dead at just the WRONG time !
I love the C-ARF Flash with a Rhino but i still have my "Pimped" Boomerang with a Rabbit.......................... So yes it depends on the Individual.

JMO Niteflyer
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:49 PM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

It depends what you mean by "Trainer." I think everyone should start with some light workload turbine. The heavy metal war birds look great on the ground and in the air (depending on who's on the sticks) but on the landing approach, its easy to see who started with "trainers" and who's got more money than sense.

There is no non-turbine aircraft that will prepare you for a big F-18/F-4/F-whatever.

If you plan your first turbine to be a Boomer, reaction, Tornado style plane, then you are going about it the right way. A ShokJet may be a little "Entry Level" for you, but it will at least teach you about operating and maintaining turbines.

I always say, if you are a low-timer, get a nice forgiving boomer, reaction, tornado. If you are confident in your abilities and want a little more range, get a Flash or Bandit (if you have good eyes. They are about 20% smaller than a Flash and fast)

Chad
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Old 12-30-2011, 07:50 PM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

It's all about the fun quotient at the field when it's time to fly. One simple idea, and it's how I went about it sort of: If you are into scale really really badly, then get a scale jet and build it. But really consider buying a second hand sport jet if you see it in person to really really gauge quality, and if you can afford it, do it. Fly the heck out of the sport jet while you build your scale jet and when it's time to fly the "big project", you won't feel like you have so much on the line as your confidence will be miles higher "in jet operations" than you can imagine it could be today. Since you don't have actual jet experience yet, it's tough to visualize and know what you don't know yet! If you have some jet buddies you fly with, then you are in great company so you can probably pull off the "fast track" scale jet plan with some honest help. But if you are going solo, I'd recommend an easier transition into the whole affair.

You'll be surprised how fun and addicting any jet powered airplane is to fly. and if you are relaxed and having fun, it won't really matter if it's not your dream machine yet. That will all come when you want it to. Even though jets are not so hard to fly, the more scale they are, the more they are fairly intolerant of dumb mistakes - make one or two dumb ones, and unlike most model airplanes, the mistakes can be very costly and take a lot of work or $$ to repair. So you want to be very consistent in your operating practices and judgement. That's where the rubber meets the road in scale jet flying.
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Old 12-30-2011, 09:20 PM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

I recently tangled with this question myself.

Ask yourself this: Does a avistar trainer teach you how to fly a habu 32? Well if you dont know how to fly then it has some value. However, if you do know how to fly then an avistar wont teach you anything about a habu 32.

The same goes for a boomerang or a shockjet. These are basically avistars with turbines on them. In my opinion, they can cause some bad habits as you get used to being able to slow down, and actually you MUST slow them down to land. You wont have this option on a scale jet.

I have a FEJ f-16 I was going to fly first, but opted for the ModelBau f-86D as a trainer. Its a jet I think will keep my skills sharp but have some forgiving characteristics like being able to come in slower, but not boomberand speed.

Now with that said I havent flown any turbines yet but that is the route I went. I'll have someone in the next state who can hopefully buddy box with me, as he as the modelbau f-86D as well which makes it a perfect starting jet.

I think the biggest thing for me will be just getting used to how small these will get in a hurry. Just have to think ahead of the jet. Doesnt matter how slow it can go if it gets out of sight!

I fly a jet that goes about 120 mph. I figure if my f-86D can fly that "slow" then I can keep it that "slow" to get used to it. before I open her up.

One MAJORproblem you will have with the word "trainer":

Some say f-16 are trainers, others say f-86, some say flash. A local to me says a Flash is the fastest thing out there and the hardest to fly. Same guy tells me f-16 is slower but hard to land. Another local tells me an f-16 is really easy.

If you have something that lands at about 20 - 30 mph you are in good shape. A shockjet/jet machlands at about 10mph Iaint kidding. I think that would ruin your skills in the long term when suddenly you have to land something a lot faster.
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Old 12-31-2011, 01:53 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

I appreciate all the replies from everyone. You have given me more ideas and have raised questions that I have not really thought about so I truly appreciate it. When I initially wrote the post, I questioned the idea of investing in a trainer jet that I would out grow quickly but after reading all the replies, I can see that I cannot compare a turbine trainer to and Avistar or a Sig Kadet. A jet trainer that can fly at over 120mph cannot be compared to a Sig Kadet that lands at 3mph. I realize that I could go directly to a scale jet but because of what I have read, I will play it safe and start with a trainer. I will find something that has dual capablities to fly both slow and fast. so that I can get use to the slow reaction time of a turbine.

I'll go to the forum for the best jet trainer and will read up on that. As far as finding the O.S. engine of turbines, what brand would be recomended? I don't mind paying a little more for something that is reliable and easy to maintain. Also, what is your opion about buying second hand turbine jet setup? Thanks
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Old 12-31-2011, 02:15 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

Here's the link to the Tornado thread

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=10882587

If you decide to go that route and can't get one in the states let me know and I'll do you a good deal from the UK.

Cheers

Ian
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:23 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

The OS of jets is without question JetCat, there are more out there than any other and much easier to sell second hand and get serviced, I bought a second hand JetsMunt 90 and immediately had to send it in for a service, it obviously had been abused, however since then its been perfect, have to mention that Gaspar/JetsMunt serviced it for free and extended the guarantee to me from the previous owner, can't think of any other turbine manufacturer that would do that.

If landing slow is a priority then you will need something that is capable of about 80 deg flap and up ailerons to put on what is commonly called crow, this amount of drag played against thrust will bring anything in nose high and slow.

Most modern turbines do not have the slow reaction times of the early turbines, JetCat SE and SX's being very fast now days or a JetsMunt 90, 80 or 100 are also fast accelerating, so not as big a problem as it used to be.

Mike
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Old 12-31-2011, 04:27 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

IMHO.....What ever you purchase as your initial jet, you have to find a Turbine CD Instructor willing to give you dual on a buddy box, and then sign you off on that jet. I didn't start with a trainer, and was signed off prior to the rule change where it had to be on a turbine. I was flying a Cermark F-16 prop jet, which I found to be envaluable, then a BVM Ducted fan Maverick, was signed off on it, then my initial turbine was a BVM F-16. So, no, you don't have to use a turbine trainer, but you do have to find the Turbine CD willing to sign you off. Since I have the Turbine CD, and sign off the guys at my field and the two other Clubs that I belong to,as the Instructor, I would have to know you, and what you can handle. I might sign you off on a Flash, or other sports jet, etc, but not an F-18, F-4, F-16, etc! So, common sense needs to be used. Also remember that you need to be comfortable with it going into the ground for a total loss, and that might determine your comfort level. Even though the Shock Jet is a fun plane, it truly isn't a good jet trainer. All the airframe is; is an Ultra Stick with a turbine in it. Because it doesn't have retracts, or a high performace wing, it doesn't teach you how to fly the military jets. So, even if you start on a trainer jet, you may still have to find someone more experienced to put you on the buddy box for the second jet. Again, this is just from my experience and humble opinion. Good Luck! PS- I got rid of my Jet Cats, due to poor service at the USA service center. This is on other forums, and won't go into it here.
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Old 12-31-2011, 05:59 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

Have you consulted with a local Turbine CD yet? What radio do they have will also determine who you use as an Instructor. IMHO....it is easier to look good on a jet trainer, then to look out of control on a cool looking jet, where everyone is running for cover.
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:00 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: RCFlyerDan

IMHO.....What ever you purchase as your initial jet, you have to find a Turbine CD Instructor willing to give you dual on a buddy box, and then sign you off on that jet. I didn't start with a trainer, and was signed off prior to the rule change where it had to be on a turbine. I was flying a Cermark F-16 prop jet, which I found to be envaluable, then a BVM Ducted fan Maverick, was signed off on it, then my initial turbine was a BVM F-16. So, no, you don't have to use a turbine trainer, but you do have to find the Turbine CD willing to sign you off. Since I have the Turbine CD, and sign off the guys at my field and the two other Clubs that I belong to,as the Instructor, I would have to know you, and what you can handle. I might sign you off on a Flash, or other sports jet, etc, but not an F-18, F-4, F-16, etc! So, common sense needs to be used. Also remember that you need to be comfortable with it going into the ground for a total loss, and that might determine your comfort level. Even though the Shock Jet is a fun plane, it truly isn't a good jet trainer. All the airframe is; is an Ultra Stick with a turbine in it. Because it doesn't have retracts, or a high performace wing, it doesn't teach you how to fly the military jets. So, even if you start on a trainer jet, you may still have to find someone more experienced to put you on the buddy box for the second jet. Again, this is just from my experience and humble opinion. Good Luck! PS- I got rid of my Jet Cats, due to poor service at the USA service center. This is on other forums, and won't go into it here.

Did somebody say Ultra Stick with a turbine in it?

Gerry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGNxy...eature=related
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:04 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

I bought a second hand JetsMunt 90 and immediately had to send it in for a service, it obviously had been abused, however since then its been perfect, have to mention that Gaspar/JetsMunt serviced it for free and extended the guarantee to me from the previous owner, can't think of any other turbine manufacturer that would do that.

Mike

I've heard nothing but good from Jet Munt. I think I need to look into the M-35 when it comes out. I recently bought a used engine that only had 2 hrs of run time since it's rebuild (less than 5 months prior) and the bearings were bad. Neither the parent company, or the USA company would help with even a discount. I'm not bashing that company, since they have no reason to help me... but other company's would have warrantied the work. (i'm not saying the manufacture's name, because they do build a good engine)

I don't know if I agree that Jet Cat is the "OS" of the turbine world... but they do make a good engine, and they probably have the largest market share. And, as BaldEagle said... it's easy to sell them second hand.

To Ply68: Since you have been flying for 15 years... you should understand the importance of a trainer. as everyone has said... there is more to it than learning to fly. Most jet trainers are tough enough to take some bad landings, and the wing loading is light so you can land with more control. And... as said... a jet trainer can still fly fast. So... unless you are looking to fly at 200 mph all the time, or are only interested in scale jets... then a "Trainer" is a good model to have.

One last thought.... Don't think of it as a "trainer." Think of it as a "Sport Model", or "Fun Fly" plane, because that's what it really is. It's the model that you don't mind scratching up on a bad landing. Your turbine experience will be more fun if you have a model you won't worry about flying.

Just my 2 cents.
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:28 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

bald eagle-your wrong there-the o.s of jet engines is A.M.T
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:57 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?

Here's my idea, and what worked for me.

The idea of jets is that they go fast. So, if you have been flying fast planes that fly in the range of 100~120 mph, then you can easily transition to the speed of a jet. Just as important is landing a plane at @ 30 mph to get you accustomed to jets landing at faster speeds. A Patriot, or similar plane is good for that.

Jet trainers will bore you quickly. While they may fly fast, they land slowly. That will be the death of your next jet. Just go to a fast and good-looking jet that you will enjoy for a long time. I use this same philosophy with women.

While Skymaster has QC issues, their Viperjet is a good all around jet for speed and looks. Easy to fly too. But make your own choice. As for me, I avoid Skymaster with a passion. For reliability and ease of assembly, I prefer BVM. But to each, his own. There are other reliable kits and manufacturers out there.

As far as turbines; JetCat is good, but Kingtech is just as good and a little cheaper. Also, consider the service you will get once you buy it. Some people complain and praise both companies for service.

If you want to avoid turbines, the hype that goes with them, the waiver process, and the cost & down-time of 25 hour inspections/overhauls that goes with them, go electric. Expect the 25 hour inspections to take 2~6 weeks, and run you at least $500 every time. Don't forget about the time to remove and re-install the turbine into your jet. It does get old.
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:27 AM
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Default RE: Turbine Jet Trainer- Is it necessary?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

The problem is no one knows how well you fly, there are some guys at our field who have been flying for 20years on all sorts of airframes including war birds, but if I had the power I would put them back on dual, only you know how well you can fly and if you can cope with that situation that may catch you out, in truth turbines are not that different once off the ground, just faster at the top end and slower to respond at the bottom end, you obviously have some reservations about your own ability because you have asked the question, why not get in touch with someone who fly's turbines and see if you can get on a buddy box with them, then you will have first hand experience and be able make up your own mind.

Mike
In reply to PLY68

You've had a lot of good responses. I like bald eagles response and it basicaly covers your answer. There are a lot of good looking/flying airplanes and reliable engines. The selection, technology, quality and reliability have improved enormously over the last 2-5 years. Watch and ask questions from those flying jets then form your own opinion. A good source of information is at a Jet meet. There you will see several makes and sizes all over the spectrum and have the opportunity to talk to many pilots. I see you live in GA. Florida Jets is coming up the 1st week of March. Its a great venue for info
I add only one more comment. The biggest maintenance you'll have on a jet is the retracts. From my experience and watching others, retracts are 75-90% of the maintemence on a jet. Be mindful of that.
K.O.
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