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  1. #101

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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Just learning about the epoxy clay system do you put or spray something down first so there are no voids in the mold.
    Centralrcmarine Performance Offshore RC model boats hulls

  2. #102
    cgrcjet's Avatar
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10


    ORIGINAL: Central*********

    Just learning about the epoxy clay system do you put or spray something down first so there are no voids in the mold.
    Depends on what type of piece your molding. Like i was saying, i used straight bondo with glass cloth and was able to pick up the detail i was needing for my gear doors. That was a quick fix and the only time i used it as polyester is not as strong as epoxy. It worked fine for that application. On the other hand the dough is thicker and probably be hard to pick up that detail. Many ways to do these things. Its always good to throw a surface coat down and some glass behind that for strength, then the dough. You can get away with that on a smaller one piece mold but on a larger 2 piece mold that you will be cracking apart every time, its better to go with more glass. Say like on my fuse mold ,i will be putting down 2 layers surface coat, which will be the surface of the mold when finished. I will fillet any corners that go into the flange area or other areas to smooth out the mold for the glass to conform better. I will use milled glass and colloidal silica for this. I will put on 3 layers of 6 0z. glass, At least 1/4" of epoxy dough, and 3 more layers of glass.

    If you live by the beach, west system laminating resin is easy to come by because people use it for boats. You can get metering pumps so there is no weighing out the 2 parts. 1 pump resin to 1 pump hardener. Very simple. They have 3 different curing hardeners. 205, 206 and 209. If your new to doing this, i would start with the 206 medium hardener as it will give you a little extra time before it gels over. West system also sells small things of colloidal silica and graphite powder. If you do not live by a west system distributor you can purchase all of this from CST sales. You can go to there site in the tutorial section and it will explain how to do the molding. If your only doing a few molds, this would be the way to go, as you can use the laminating resin for the surface coat and for wetting out your layers of glass. Hope this helps.

    thanks
    chris
    WWW.CGRCJets.com

  3. #103
    invertmast's Avatar
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10


    ORIGINAL: cgrcjet


    ORIGINAL: invertmast

    Chris,
    Looks good. I used the epoxy dough/clay stuff for my gear door molds w/o any glass layers. If I hadn't had so much fiberglass cloth laying around, I would of just used the dough/clay stuff for my molds. Much easier and faster to do!
    On my last one, i used bondo for my gear door molds. I added 6 0z. cloth between coatings to give it strength. Yes the dough saves alot of time. I cannot see spending another 24 hours straight for one fuse half. I did use this on my last fuse mold but i added to many layers of cloth. I was being safe because i did not know what to expect. Now that i have experience with it, things will go easier. $75 a gallon but if you think about it, the gallon of laminating resin with hardener is well over $100. What brand did you use?

    chris

    Chris,
    I put one layer of adtexh es201pc surface coat ($115/gallon). Then used the adtech el323tc tooling dough ($130ish for 1 gallon of resin and 1 gallon of hardner, 2 gallons total).

    I didnt use any surface coat with the first attempt using this stuff and it picked up all of the detail, but the surface porous. The next ones i used surface coat on and no glass cloth. The molds are as strong as my 1/4" thick flange layups.
    Thomas W.
    Euro-sport Evo, Scratch built 1/7 F-14D Tomcat, 26.5% Gee Bee R2

  4. #104
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10


    ORIGINAL: invertmast


    ORIGINAL: cgrcjet


    ORIGINAL: invertmast

    Chris,
    Looks good. I used the epoxy dough/clay stuff for my gear door molds w/o any glass layers. If I hadn't had so much fiberglass cloth laying around, I would of just used the dough/clay stuff for my molds. Much easier and faster to do!
    On my last one, i used bondo for my gear door molds. I added 6 0z. cloth between coatings to give it strength. Yes the dough saves alot of time. I cannot see spending another 24 hours straight for one fuse half. I did use this on my last fuse mold but i added to many layers of cloth. I was being safe because i did not know what to expect. Now that i have experience with it, things will go easier. $75 a gallon but if you think about it, the gallon of laminating resin with hardener is well over $100. What brand did you use?

    chris

    Chris,
    I put one layer of adtexh es201pc surface coat ($115/gallon). Then used the adtech el323tc tooling dough ($130ish for 1 gallon of resin and 1 gallon of hardner, 2 gallons total).

    I didnt use any surface coat with the first attempt using this stuff and it picked up all of the detail, but the surface porous. The next ones i used surface coat on and no glass cloth. The molds are as strong as my 1/4'' thick flange layups.
    Hi Thomas

    I use the Freemam 1010 dough. When i did my tooloing last time it was 2 gallons total for $75. On the site it said one gallon kit but i asked and the lady thought it was 2 gallons total. I guess i will see when i get it this week. If it is a gallon total, i guess it would be in the same price range and if not and it is 2 gallons then it would be about half price. I use to get some stuff from polymer composites as well but they changed up there formula without telling me and all my pylon molds turned out warped. They added a ton of microballons to it and something went wrong.

    chris
    WWW.CGRCJets.com

  5. #105

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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    I would like to see your process when you do. I design and make rc offshore boats from 51" to 72" but I use vinylester and high quality polester resin for layups. I have done a few west system epoxy molds on smaller items that I was concerned with warping. Sounds like the epoxy clay would be a quicker process on certain projects.
    Centralrcmarine Performance Offshore RC model boats hulls

  6. #106
    cgrcjet's Avatar
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10


    ORIGINAL: Central*********

    I would like to see your process when you do. I design and make rc offshore boats from 51'' to 72'' but I use vinylester and high quality polester resin for layups. I have done a few west system epoxy molds on smaller items that I was concerned with warping. Sounds like the epoxy clay would be a quicker process on certain projects.
    I will be starting some molding once i recieve the epoxy dough and that should be by this weekend. I will post some pics for you.

    You cant beat the cost of polyester but then you cant beat the better durability of epoxy either. I use vinylester in mold before layup. I tried polyester and had some cracking issues once in awhile when pulling parts. Polyester goes on a bit thicker and i think thats why. Vinylester goes on perfect with one coat. Some people use epoxy primer in mold before layup but then you need to put on a few coats to get the right buildup. Sucks that the esters have such a bad smell. I could not imagine laminating with it to.


    chris
    WWW.CGRCJets.com

  7. #107
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Very tedious work. Put flush rivets on elevator and sanded up to 1000 grit before applying the raised rivets. Raised rivets seem to still stick pretty well, so i guess 1000 it is. Spent a greater part of the day on this elevator. At first i thought there were only flush rivets on the leading edge of the elevator then i seen raised rivets so i thought to fill them in but it actually has both, so i guess i done good. I have thousands of pics of the A-10 and sometimes you still cannot find the greatest pics you need.

    chris
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  8. #108
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Started molding first half of one of the rudders today for a test with the new release. I have worked on it all day but have spent not even an hours time on it total. Most of that time was waiting for the 3 coats of sealer and 4 coats of release to dry. The other waiting time was between the 2 coats of surface coat and filleting the high areas to smooth out for glass. After the 2 coats of surface coat i mixed some resin with milled glass to fillet the high edges. After that tacked over ,i smoothed it out the rest of the way with epoxy dough and started laying up 5 layers of 6 0z. cloth.

    I like this release better so far as you can wipe or spray it on and it dries pretty quick without noticing that it is even on the plug. The spray seems to go on a bit thick and I read on another thread where someone sprayed and got runs and it created spots that he could not get off. Said he had to re sand the plug to remove it. After reading the thread i had noticed a few spots on mine but i just layed another layer down, let it sit for a minute and easily buffed the spots out. Worked good, but i have another few days before i completely pull the plug to see how good this release works.

    chris
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  9. #109
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Amazing Job but I'm agree with Stan you must build a big one....
    Please start a Big A10 15feets to have a big plane.
    Best regards.
    Fifou

    PS: Stan thanks for your advice yesterday at the Macap and don't hesitate to contact me if you need Catia drawing. nSend me MP with your mail to send you P47 pics
    regards.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #122

  10. #110
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10


    ORIGINAL: fifou313

    Amazing Job but I'm agree with Stan you must build a big one....
    Please start a Big A10 15feets to have a big plane.
    Best regards.
    Fifou

    PS: Stan thanks for your advice yesterday at the Macap and don't hesitate to contact me if you need Catia drawing. nSend me MP with your mail to send you P47 pics
    regards.
    Tell you what. If you guys want to pitch in on molding material , i would do it. I would have all the cad designs. I could just scale it all up. Problem is, i think it would be slim pickins for one that size and there would be alot more materials involved. I spend quite a few thousands just on my smaller one for materials. That would be cool though. I could park one out in my driveway.

    chris
    WWW.CGRCJets.com

  11. #111
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    First mold half. Release good so far. Practically fell off the parting plane. Better test will be pulling the plug when the other half is finished. Be much more productive if i was able to work on multiple molds at once but i guess its better to make sure i am fully happy with the release.

    chris
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  12. #112
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Hello Chris.
    Yes you are right I have the same problem with my driveway lol
    For the moment it's only a dream...
    By the way You make an amazing job.
    Best regards.
    Fifou
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #122

  13. #113
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10


    ORIGINAL: fifou313

    Hello Chris.
    Yes you are right I have the same problem with my driveway lol
    For the moment it's only a dream...
    By the way You make an amazing job.
    Best regards.
    Fifou
    Thanks Fifou. Them darned dreams get the best of us.

    chris
    WWW.CGRCJets.com

  14. #114
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Demolded the rudder this morning. Very easy to demold. Now that i have my answer, i can get a bit more productive now and do multiple molds. I may pull a part first out of these molds to see if i need to make the detail a bit more pronounced on the plugs. Main concern on this is prepping for paint on finished parts without loosing much of the detail. I will invest in a soda blaster and see how it works for prep. This will allow me to cut time on producing an ARF.


    chris
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  15. #115
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Chris, what is the idea behind the white (Delrin?) bar on the trailing edge of the rudder?

  16. #116
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10


    ORIGINAL: ianober

    Chris, what is the idea behind the white (Delrin?) bar on the trailing edge of the rudder?
    Hi ianober

    I machined out a piece of polyethylene for the trailing edge. The tooling resin will not stick to the polyethylene so i did not have to prep for release. Last time i used a piece of wood that i had to seal and use release on. This way its faster. I put this on the trailing edge because the trailing edge is very thin with no room for a parting line. This way you have a flat edge to just trim the trailing edge to or you can just demold and belt sand to the line that it leaves. Trailing edge is not even 1/32 thick. My last trailing edge was a bit thicker, so its time for a fixin.

    chris
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  17. #117
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Ok, thats what I figured.

  18. #118
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Nice and shiny! Frekote mold release is very easy to use. Just the initial application takes awhile because of how many coats. I could not imagine waxing these molds and trying to get all the wax out of the detail. This is 3 coats of sealer and 2 coats release. I still need to put 2 more coats of release. Suppose to be good for multiple pulls.

    Have the other rudder and vert. stabs ready to start molding tomorrow.

    chris
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  19. #119
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Demolded the other rudder and vert. stabs today. Unfortunately with a little trial and error mishap. This i will know on the next molds i do. Luckily it was not on the fuse or another larger part.

    3 days ago i laid up the first half of these molds and it was hot out and the faster hardener probably did not help the situation but i had small trapped air bubbles on the surface coat. Wondering what went wrong, i remembered that on the first rudder i did, i had brought it into a cooler room after i put the layers on. The second halfs of these molds came out nice as i brought them into a cooler room. I had to fix the porosity on the other halves with a polyester filler by rubbing it into the mold and wiping off with acetone. This is a quick fix for now but i may need to re due these halves. I guess i will have to see how nice the parts come out.

    So, in other words, put the surface coat on where its cooler. Thats a little tip from trial and error.

    chris
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  20. #120
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Chris,
    The molds are looking great! Lemme know when you have a need for a beta builder. Lol. After seeing your success and doing more research, i have put my order in for some frekote. The system just sounds to good not to use
    Thomas W.
    Euro-sport Evo, Scratch built 1/7 F-14D Tomcat, 26.5% Gee Bee R2

  21. #121
    cgrcjet's Avatar
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10


    ORIGINAL: invertmast

    Chris,
    The molds are looking great! Lemme know when you have a need for a beta builder. Lol. After seeing your success and doing more research, i have put my order in for some frekote. The system just sounds to good not to use
    Hi Thomas

    I will keep you in mind, lol.

    You should definately try the frekote. I was having second thoughts on the release of the vert stabs as the undercut on the back side and the opening at the top could have proved a hard release for a mold. Surprisingly it released easily thankfully. There was a small transfer of paint here and there but i just buffed it out with acetone. I finished the raised rivet areas out with 600 and up to 1500 grit sandpaper after demolding. I just ran 1500 grit over the flush rivets to smooth out any peaks. Lower and smoother they are will be less chance of them chipping out. I will let these sit a few days and then have a run at a layup.

    chris
    WWW.CGRCJets.com

  22. #122

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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Like to thank you for the canopy i recieved today Chris. Your work looks like it will payoff on both ends, being a little less work on this buildup and a better all around ARF. Keep it coming and yes indeed, watch out for that high humidy down there on your layups. Thanks again and once the "office" is finished out ill post ya a pic or two.
    Sam Woodard
    AMA 51401
    IMAC 3207

  23. #123
    cgrcjet's Avatar
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10


    ORIGINAL: sam@ata

    Like to thank you for the canopy i recieved today Chris. Your work looks like it will payoff on both ends, being a little less work on this buildup and a better all around ARF. Keep it coming and yes indeed, watch out for that high humidy down there on your layups. Thanks again and once the ''office'' is finished out ill post ya a pic or two.
    No problem Sam. Hope the canopy helps you out.

    chris
    WWW.CGRCJets.com

  24. #124
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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    I have been waiting very patiently for the full release of the 3d model i purchased, so i can drive forward on this project. I am very picky about this model and i must say, they have done an excellent job so far. Hopefully i should have the model complete within a week. It has taken almost four months but i can see that it will be well worth it. Here are a few pics of what it will look like.

    chris
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  25. #125

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    RE: New CGRCjets super scale A-10

    Chris,
    Who is they?
    Fahim

    http://www.wowplanes.com


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