So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
09-02-2003, 07:18 AM
#1
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
Well, recently I've seen quite a few posts asking what is the best jet for a beginner, cheapest jet, etc.
As a result, I thought I would share my thoughts and experience (limited as it may be) and hopefully some more experienced pilots will as well. Perhaps then when someone asks again, there will be a thread with all the info in it we can point to
Please realize that everyone has different opinions, what works best for one person may not work for the next. What I hope for in this thread is that everyone can share and accept others opinions and that it will be nothing but helpful.
With that in mind, here I go
!!!!
__________________________________________________ __
Ok, first of all, a little background info on me.
I have been flying for about 13 years seriously. Although I consider myself a well experienced RC pilot, I am still somewhat of a beginner in jets I think.
My RC experience involves everything from Pattern to pylon to giant scale to jets. 200mph is not a new thing to me, however, as I learned rather quickly, jets react differently than everything else I had ever flown.
My jet experience is about 3 years now. Starting with a DL aeromodels Cyclone which was unfortunately short lived due to an engine failure in a most inopportune spot. Next came a RAM750 powered Kangaroo. Awesome bird and I felt 100% comfortable with it. It now belongs to a gentleman in NY who has put over 200 flights on it! Now I have an Aviation Design Exocet with RAM750, a new Kangaroo with RAM750 under construction, and a yellow F4.
Other jets I have flown include a Top Gun Mig 29, Regal Eagle, Jetlag, and a viper.
Although I have had some bad luck with jets, I can honestly say I have never thumbed one in. The closest I came to that was with the F4, it did get broken, but it was due to being a little to anxious to fly on a day that was just a little to warm with a field that was just a little to short resulting in a stall on take off when it hit a bump in the runway sending it airborne.
So, with that out of the way, here is MY thoughts on your first jet
__________________________________________________ _
Getting prepared for Jets
First thing's first, you have to ask yourself, "what is my experience?"
While there are some people who have learned on airplanes well beyond the trainer realm successfully, and are naturally talented pilots, these people are few and far between.
Chances are, if you are considering jets, you have some experience. I think there is a natural progression to follow when you are considering a jet.
1. Trainer (assuming you've never flown before)
2. Mid or low wing sport model with aerobatic capability
3. Aerobatic model, I suggest something like a curare or tiporare, these are very true airplanes, but will also introduce speed
4. Sport pylon model or some type of speed plane capable of at least 100mph.
Once you've gone through these, you have a fairly good concept of flight and what different airplanes do. Some good fast airplanes would include things like a Sig Wonder, Lanier Shrike, Weston Magnum, the older 60 size pattern birds, an old Formula one pylon racer, quickie 500's, etc. Something that can do at least 100 mph is nice to have some experience on.
The other thing I like to practice is dead stick landings. Landing an airplane without the engine running will give you a totally different sensation of your control surfaces. A jet has no prop wash over the flight surfaces. As a result, it reacts differently. When you add power in a jet, the surfaces are not immediately effective as they might be with a prop plane. A deadstick landing will teach you more how to land an airplane while keeping the speed up and "greasing it in".
The other thing I cannot stress enough is, TEACH YOURSELF TO FLY THE AIRPLANE, NEVER LET IT FLY YOU. What I mean is, ALWAYS know what your last input was, and know what attitude you are in. The perception of Jets is different than many sport models. They are also moving faster typically. Always be at least 2 steps ahead of your model or you will be in trouble quickly.
Moving on.......
__________________________________________________ _
Ducted fan or Turbine?
A couple years back I'd have immediately said start with Ducted fan. After having flown turbines, I say if you can afford a turbine, start with it. They are so much more reliable, more user friendly, and have so much more power they just make jet flying easier.
However, if you are starting with Ducted fan, there are a few things to consider.
First, these are high performance engines. I suggest buying new, even though they don't typically have any warranty, they are at least new. There are very few fan engines on the market anymore, but I suggest trying to stay with a 91 size engine and jet. For a couple of reasons.
1. The 91 size is more available and has a wider range of airframes.
2. There is more power there
3. You will probably move up to 91's eventually if you do start with 45's or something, and the 91's are the same money almost as a 45 and if you want to sell your ducted fan stuff at some point you will recoupe more of your money in a 91 than smaller.
4. the old adage, "bigger flies better"
I do believe that with the cost of turbines coming down, if you think that is where you want to get to eventually, you are further ahead to start with a turbine these days. There are a few differences in the flying of a turbine vs a df though that one must be aware of, part of the learning curve.
1. you have throttle lag with a turbine, more than a df will have.
2. you carry much more fuel with a turbine, that equals heavier take off weight and perhaps even heavier dry weight.
3. Temperature, of course you have to consider stainless steel tailpipes, and all of your surroundings differently.
Turbines are IMO no more difficult to operate than anything else, in fact they are easier in many respects, however they are an incredibly powerful machine, and like all engines they absolutely MUST command respect.
__________________________________________________ __
Airframes
So now that you think you know what you want to use for a powerplant, what do you want to put it into?
Well, for your first jet, no matter how badly you want to go fast, don't look for a 200mph jet. You can go faster anytime you want, however if you blow all your money on a 200mph jet and then realize you aren't ready for it, you're stuck. Things happen quickly in jets, don't get in over your head. Also, if you have decided to go DF, 200mph jets are typically heavily loaded jets that fly fast and land fast.
Consider your field, do you have pavement or grass? If you have grass then a Yellow F4 with 1.5" wheels on the nose gear probably isn't going to be the best choice.
There are so many good jets on the market it's amazing these days.
In the ducted fan realm you have Starfires, Spectre, TG Mig, TG F15, Balsa bandit, to name a few. (trying to stay with jets still in production which is why I didn't mention mavericks, razor, etc)
A good light jet that will slow down well for landing is what you want. Although you can still find them used, I personally don't consider the Viper, Aggressor etc to be suitable first jets as they are heavy fast birds. Although they fly very well, they are not really what I would call a good first jet.
Depending on what you want to spend, the above mentioned jets are available for between $350 to $1400 for the kits. I know there are more, I just can't think of them right now.
In the turbine realm you have soooooooo many choices now!
Kangaroo, Rookie, harpoon, Firebird, Bobcat, Balsa Bandit, Exocet, AV8R, Facet, etc etc etc. One thing to keep in mind, is many of the old DF's are now available with turbine conversions, but while a jet like a starfire might be a great first DF, when you change to turbine the weight increases, it might still be a great jet, but maybe not as well suited to a first jet.
I like the idea of the Kangaroo and AV8R having the engine outside where you can really learn the operation of your engine.
At any rate, I think buying a kit is the best way to go. This way YOU learn your jet. you can source problems easier when they arise. As well, there is probably no RC model with as much plumbing and wiring as an RC jet, if you do all this yourself, then you have a far better understanding of it all.
__________________________________________________ __
As a result, I thought I would share my thoughts and experience (limited as it may be) and hopefully some more experienced pilots will as well. Perhaps then when someone asks again, there will be a thread with all the info in it we can point to
Please realize that everyone has different opinions, what works best for one person may not work for the next. What I hope for in this thread is that everyone can share and accept others opinions and that it will be nothing but helpful.
With that in mind, here I go
!!!!__________________________________________________ __
Ok, first of all, a little background info on me.
I have been flying for about 13 years seriously. Although I consider myself a well experienced RC pilot, I am still somewhat of a beginner in jets I think.
My RC experience involves everything from Pattern to pylon to giant scale to jets. 200mph is not a new thing to me, however, as I learned rather quickly, jets react differently than everything else I had ever flown.
My jet experience is about 3 years now. Starting with a DL aeromodels Cyclone which was unfortunately short lived due to an engine failure in a most inopportune spot. Next came a RAM750 powered Kangaroo. Awesome bird and I felt 100% comfortable with it. It now belongs to a gentleman in NY who has put over 200 flights on it! Now I have an Aviation Design Exocet with RAM750, a new Kangaroo with RAM750 under construction, and a yellow F4.
Other jets I have flown include a Top Gun Mig 29, Regal Eagle, Jetlag, and a viper.
Although I have had some bad luck with jets, I can honestly say I have never thumbed one in. The closest I came to that was with the F4, it did get broken, but it was due to being a little to anxious to fly on a day that was just a little to warm with a field that was just a little to short resulting in a stall on take off when it hit a bump in the runway sending it airborne.
So, with that out of the way, here is MY thoughts on your first jet
__________________________________________________ _
Getting prepared for Jets
First thing's first, you have to ask yourself, "what is my experience?"
While there are some people who have learned on airplanes well beyond the trainer realm successfully, and are naturally talented pilots, these people are few and far between.
Chances are, if you are considering jets, you have some experience. I think there is a natural progression to follow when you are considering a jet.
1. Trainer (assuming you've never flown before)
2. Mid or low wing sport model with aerobatic capability
3. Aerobatic model, I suggest something like a curare or tiporare, these are very true airplanes, but will also introduce speed
4. Sport pylon model or some type of speed plane capable of at least 100mph.
Once you've gone through these, you have a fairly good concept of flight and what different airplanes do. Some good fast airplanes would include things like a Sig Wonder, Lanier Shrike, Weston Magnum, the older 60 size pattern birds, an old Formula one pylon racer, quickie 500's, etc. Something that can do at least 100 mph is nice to have some experience on.
The other thing I like to practice is dead stick landings. Landing an airplane without the engine running will give you a totally different sensation of your control surfaces. A jet has no prop wash over the flight surfaces. As a result, it reacts differently. When you add power in a jet, the surfaces are not immediately effective as they might be with a prop plane. A deadstick landing will teach you more how to land an airplane while keeping the speed up and "greasing it in".
The other thing I cannot stress enough is, TEACH YOURSELF TO FLY THE AIRPLANE, NEVER LET IT FLY YOU. What I mean is, ALWAYS know what your last input was, and know what attitude you are in. The perception of Jets is different than many sport models. They are also moving faster typically. Always be at least 2 steps ahead of your model or you will be in trouble quickly.
Moving on.......
__________________________________________________ _
Ducted fan or Turbine?
A couple years back I'd have immediately said start with Ducted fan. After having flown turbines, I say if you can afford a turbine, start with it. They are so much more reliable, more user friendly, and have so much more power they just make jet flying easier.
However, if you are starting with Ducted fan, there are a few things to consider.
First, these are high performance engines. I suggest buying new, even though they don't typically have any warranty, they are at least new. There are very few fan engines on the market anymore, but I suggest trying to stay with a 91 size engine and jet. For a couple of reasons.
1. The 91 size is more available and has a wider range of airframes.
2. There is more power there
3. You will probably move up to 91's eventually if you do start with 45's or something, and the 91's are the same money almost as a 45 and if you want to sell your ducted fan stuff at some point you will recoupe more of your money in a 91 than smaller.
4. the old adage, "bigger flies better"
I do believe that with the cost of turbines coming down, if you think that is where you want to get to eventually, you are further ahead to start with a turbine these days. There are a few differences in the flying of a turbine vs a df though that one must be aware of, part of the learning curve.
1. you have throttle lag with a turbine, more than a df will have.
2. you carry much more fuel with a turbine, that equals heavier take off weight and perhaps even heavier dry weight.
3. Temperature, of course you have to consider stainless steel tailpipes, and all of your surroundings differently.
Turbines are IMO no more difficult to operate than anything else, in fact they are easier in many respects, however they are an incredibly powerful machine, and like all engines they absolutely MUST command respect.
__________________________________________________ __
Airframes
So now that you think you know what you want to use for a powerplant, what do you want to put it into?
Well, for your first jet, no matter how badly you want to go fast, don't look for a 200mph jet. You can go faster anytime you want, however if you blow all your money on a 200mph jet and then realize you aren't ready for it, you're stuck. Things happen quickly in jets, don't get in over your head. Also, if you have decided to go DF, 200mph jets are typically heavily loaded jets that fly fast and land fast.
Consider your field, do you have pavement or grass? If you have grass then a Yellow F4 with 1.5" wheels on the nose gear probably isn't going to be the best choice.
There are so many good jets on the market it's amazing these days.
In the ducted fan realm you have Starfires, Spectre, TG Mig, TG F15, Balsa bandit, to name a few. (trying to stay with jets still in production which is why I didn't mention mavericks, razor, etc)
A good light jet that will slow down well for landing is what you want. Although you can still find them used, I personally don't consider the Viper, Aggressor etc to be suitable first jets as they are heavy fast birds. Although they fly very well, they are not really what I would call a good first jet.
Depending on what you want to spend, the above mentioned jets are available for between $350 to $1400 for the kits. I know there are more, I just can't think of them right now.
In the turbine realm you have soooooooo many choices now!
Kangaroo, Rookie, harpoon, Firebird, Bobcat, Balsa Bandit, Exocet, AV8R, Facet, etc etc etc. One thing to keep in mind, is many of the old DF's are now available with turbine conversions, but while a jet like a starfire might be a great first DF, when you change to turbine the weight increases, it might still be a great jet, but maybe not as well suited to a first jet.
I like the idea of the Kangaroo and AV8R having the engine outside where you can really learn the operation of your engine.
At any rate, I think buying a kit is the best way to go. This way YOU learn your jet. you can source problems easier when they arise. As well, there is probably no RC model with as much plumbing and wiring as an RC jet, if you do all this yourself, then you have a far better understanding of it all.
__________________________________________________ __
09-02-2003, 07:19 AM
#2
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
Some extra notes
1. When you are building a Jet, don't cheap out on things that are the lifeline of you model. Don't put cheap cheap servo's or radio gear in, put in the best you can afford. Losing a $2000 and up model to a $20 servo really isn't worth it.
2. Have a thorough understanding of all your model, brakes, retracts, engine, remote needles, turbine etc. Knowing how everything works and what it does will greatly increase your chances of success.
3. Learn a proper maintenance schedule. Success with any model, but specifically a high tech model begins with checking and rechecking the model to make sure that everything is as it should be..
4. Take your time and don't rush into things, think it through, and really consider what your needs are with a jet. Remember, this is your first Jet, you don't need a 250mph Starjet. You NEED something stable, capable of slowing down good. You NEED something reliable and easy to operate. You NEED success more than speed to begin.
5. DO NOT BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!! No matter how stupid you might think your question is, ask it! The only stupid question is the one you don't ask! I'm sure when I first started I drove Dean (Wichman) nuts with all the phone calls!! but I was on my own in the club, no jet guys, so Dean caught the majority of my queries. If it wasn't for Dean I'd never have been successful. I still had to do my first Jet flights on my own with my Cyclone, but it was because of his knowledge and willingness to help that I had more than one flight.
__________________________________________________ __
My conclusion
There is nothing difficult about flying most jets, just different. If you take your time, and are patient, you will be successful. Don't rush into things you aren't ready for and you won't have accidents.
Flying a jet is different, but it's not hard, it's just something you have to learn like anything else. You don't have propwash, you don't have immediate thrust.
The most important thing I think though, is respect these machines, don't let them get ahead of you, and don't forget that these are real miniature aircraft, with turbines they are real miniature jets. They deserve respect.
Well, I guess that's it for now, it's 2:10am and I'm wiped, as a result I'm sure I've missed about a million things, but hopefully this thread will become something with good guidelines for the new guy looking to get into jets and will be helpful.
If you are a new guy and have questions, please post them, there is a wealth of info here, I'll answer what I can, and leave the rest to the people that can answer them.
Hope this was enjoyed
Jeremy
1. When you are building a Jet, don't cheap out on things that are the lifeline of you model. Don't put cheap cheap servo's or radio gear in, put in the best you can afford. Losing a $2000 and up model to a $20 servo really isn't worth it.
2. Have a thorough understanding of all your model, brakes, retracts, engine, remote needles, turbine etc. Knowing how everything works and what it does will greatly increase your chances of success.
3. Learn a proper maintenance schedule. Success with any model, but specifically a high tech model begins with checking and rechecking the model to make sure that everything is as it should be..
4. Take your time and don't rush into things, think it through, and really consider what your needs are with a jet. Remember, this is your first Jet, you don't need a 250mph Starjet. You NEED something stable, capable of slowing down good. You NEED something reliable and easy to operate. You NEED success more than speed to begin.
5. DO NOT BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS!!!!!!!!! No matter how stupid you might think your question is, ask it! The only stupid question is the one you don't ask! I'm sure when I first started I drove Dean (Wichman) nuts with all the phone calls!! but I was on my own in the club, no jet guys, so Dean caught the majority of my queries. If it wasn't for Dean I'd never have been successful. I still had to do my first Jet flights on my own with my Cyclone, but it was because of his knowledge and willingness to help that I had more than one flight.
__________________________________________________ __
My conclusion
There is nothing difficult about flying most jets, just different. If you take your time, and are patient, you will be successful. Don't rush into things you aren't ready for and you won't have accidents.
Flying a jet is different, but it's not hard, it's just something you have to learn like anything else. You don't have propwash, you don't have immediate thrust.
The most important thing I think though, is respect these machines, don't let them get ahead of you, and don't forget that these are real miniature aircraft, with turbines they are real miniature jets. They deserve respect.
Well, I guess that's it for now, it's 2:10am and I'm wiped, as a result I'm sure I've missed about a million things, but hopefully this thread will become something with good guidelines for the new guy looking to get into jets and will be helpful.
If you are a new guy and have questions, please post them, there is a wealth of info here, I'll answer what I can, and leave the rest to the people that can answer them.
Hope this was enjoyed
Jeremy
09-02-2003, 07:22 AM
#3
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
Geez, I just looked back and realized, I'm kind of a wordy SOB huh? LOL!!!!! I should have realized that when it wouldn't let me post all of it in one post, I HAD to do 2 posts LOL!!!!!
Oh well, if you are a serious newbie, I think it's worth a read, hope someone else things so too, it was alot of typing LOL!!!
Oh well, if you are a serious newbie, I think it's worth a read, hope someone else things so too, it was alot of typing LOL!!!
09-02-2003, 02:01 PM
#4
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: sebastopol,
CA
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
ok i want to be serious once i get done with my dazzler and the i jus want the cheapest jet man has ever made!lol or maybe a turbo prop? which ever is cheaper
09-02-2003, 04:19 PM
#5
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
The bottom line in Jets, like so many other things in this world, is you get what you pay for.
Having said that, there are some incredibly inexpensive jets available now, but they are only inexpensive in comparison to other jets.
If you are trying to build a jet for $600 or less you will have a hard time of it.
Probably an enforcer with fan would do it, perhaps building a skyburner from plans would as well. But you've mentioned you don't really want to build.
What I would suggest, is keep saving, it took me a long time to get a jet, when I finally did make the switch to turbines I did it by selling years worth of accumulated RC stuff. There were less expensive engines, airframes, and servo's I could have bought, but I doubt I'd have been successful.
When you see a jet being sold dirt cheap, you have to ask yourself, why is it being sold dirt cheap? They aren't cheap to start with.
If you're talking jet or turbo prop, (turbines) I'm sorry to say there is no chance you will do one for $600.
If it is what you TRULY want to be serious about, and do, then start saving now, even if it takes you a year, 2 years, whatever, you will be happier in the long run.
by way of comparrison, here is something else to consider.
I play guitar, all my guitar playing life, I had wanted an Eventide Harmonizer (an effects unit for guitar) but they cost about $3000. I bought every damn harmonizer on the market that cost less than the eventide trying to find one that I was happy with. Well, after 5 years of doing that, I'd spent a combined total of $8000 on cheaper ones, and still didn't have something I was happy with. Why? because I was impatient. Today, I have the Eventide unit and it is soooooooo worth the money. Had I only waited, I could have had one years before I got mine, if I'd just saved the money for a year or two.
Same with Jets, you can start with a Kyosho DF, or something less expensive, but will you really be happy?
Something else to consider, even if you do successfully start with an inexpensive jet, it's still going to be a considerable up front cost, if you love it, you are going to want to upgrade at some point, if you hate it, you will want to sell it, if you buy really cheap stuff, you will have a hard time of selling it. If you buy good, then when you want to upgrade, you will get more towards your next jet, if you want out, you will get more of your investment back.
As I said before, it really is a case of "you get what you pay for"
Having said that, there are some incredibly inexpensive jets available now, but they are only inexpensive in comparison to other jets.
If you are trying to build a jet for $600 or less you will have a hard time of it.
Probably an enforcer with fan would do it, perhaps building a skyburner from plans would as well. But you've mentioned you don't really want to build.
What I would suggest, is keep saving, it took me a long time to get a jet, when I finally did make the switch to turbines I did it by selling years worth of accumulated RC stuff. There were less expensive engines, airframes, and servo's I could have bought, but I doubt I'd have been successful.
When you see a jet being sold dirt cheap, you have to ask yourself, why is it being sold dirt cheap? They aren't cheap to start with.
If you're talking jet or turbo prop, (turbines) I'm sorry to say there is no chance you will do one for $600.
If it is what you TRULY want to be serious about, and do, then start saving now, even if it takes you a year, 2 years, whatever, you will be happier in the long run.
by way of comparrison, here is something else to consider.
I play guitar, all my guitar playing life, I had wanted an Eventide Harmonizer (an effects unit for guitar) but they cost about $3000. I bought every damn harmonizer on the market that cost less than the eventide trying to find one that I was happy with. Well, after 5 years of doing that, I'd spent a combined total of $8000 on cheaper ones, and still didn't have something I was happy with. Why? because I was impatient. Today, I have the Eventide unit and it is soooooooo worth the money. Had I only waited, I could have had one years before I got mine, if I'd just saved the money for a year or two.
Same with Jets, you can start with a Kyosho DF, or something less expensive, but will you really be happy?
Something else to consider, even if you do successfully start with an inexpensive jet, it's still going to be a considerable up front cost, if you love it, you are going to want to upgrade at some point, if you hate it, you will want to sell it, if you buy really cheap stuff, you will have a hard time of selling it. If you buy good, then when you want to upgrade, you will get more towards your next jet, if you want out, you will get more of your investment back.
As I said before, it really is a case of "you get what you pay for"
09-02-2003, 04:29 PM
#6
My Feedback: (101)
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
what you said more or less covered the bases. Maybe this should be placed in a Jet Bible someplace, maybe a pamphlet even. But like most guys they wont take heed to this advice until after the first crash and the dumbest question is the one that is asked after the crash. I have bben fortunate enuff to be around a small contingent of D/F and turbine flyers and that is a wallet and a life saver so my only addition to your brillant expose is that YOU FIND other jet flyers and get to know them and them you. This will shorten the learning curve drastically. Just because you can fly doesn't mean you can fly everything.
09-02-2003, 08:06 PM
#8
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
Nice to see someone concerned for beginners... My dilemma is that I have minimal flying experience, but love building scale models. I am toying with building a Y/A F-15, but know that if I ever want to fly it, I will likely need several years of experience on acrobatic props and probably a beginner jet prior, and even then its chances of survival look slim.
Building this model will give me great pleasure, I just wish I had the skill to fly one as well.....
Keep-up the good work Jeremy - its good to see someone catering for those of us who are learning about this wonderful hobby!
Building this model will give me great pleasure, I just wish I had the skill to fly one as well.....
Keep-up the good work Jeremy - its good to see someone catering for those of us who are learning about this wonderful hobby!
09-02-2003, 11:15 PM
#9
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Roseville,
CA
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
Great post Jeremy! It is nice to see someone take the time to help explain the leap into turbines.
Composite-ARF's Kangaroo comes with a mount for a 90-120 glow engine, so that you step into the turbine transition. You can fly the plane initially with the pusher set up, and then once comfortable, strap in the turbine.
This not only seems like it would help you get used to the different handling and speed, but also work towards one's waiver. Does anyone have any experience/thoughts about this set up?
Thanks,
Brett
Composite-ARF's Kangaroo comes with a mount for a 90-120 glow engine, so that you step into the turbine transition. You can fly the plane initially with the pusher set up, and then once comfortable, strap in the turbine.
This not only seems like it would help you get used to the different handling and speed, but also work towards one's waiver. Does anyone have any experience/thoughts about this set up?
Thanks,
Brett
09-03-2003, 06:08 AM
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: NA,
NJ
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
Originally posted by Jeremy Ferguson
The bottom line in Jets, like so many other things in this world, is you get what you pay for.
The bottom line in Jets, like so many other things in this world, is you get what you pay for.
Amen to that.
Only rich people can afford to buy cheap. I'm saving the $450+ that my undercarriage will cost. When the time comes to buy I won't even flinch knowing that I bought a quality system.
:thumbup: Great post Jeremy :thumbup:
09-03-2003, 10:15 AM
#11
Senior Member
My Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: New York,
NY
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hmmm...
Let me see if I've got this straight. Don't buy a cheap jet, because one won't really be happy. (Where the heck is Easytiger when you need him?) There's a lot of up front cost in any cheap jet to begin with, which will make one even more unhappy. Yet, if a lack of experience is at the forefront, then one should start with a number of prop jets, trainers etc... How much is all of that going to cost? If a "stepping stone" approach is the way to go, then what age did the 12 year old kid flying the turbine powered BVM Bandit begin his career? Or is flying turbines so easy, even a twelve year old can do it? Okay, so I'm shooting from the hip somewhat. I just think it should be mentioned that there are always exceptions. There's a reason man invented the buddy-box and all of those great RC simulators. I also have a fool-proof way of never crashing a turbine model. Don't fly it. Just let it sit there in your living room and put stanchions around it. LOL
Steve
Steve
09-03-2003, 12:15 PM
#12
My Feedback: (9)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: spring hill,
FL
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
I've always been interested in, and toying with the idea of using the new turbines and I have the wherewithal to tackle such a project, but.............
My dilemma is my field is grass covered, relatively short, and (I'm no expert) appears to be pretty inhospitable to turbine powered models.
What would be a good candidate under these circumstances? I'm a warbird buff and have been partial to the 'trainer' types of jet powered warbirds.
Whad'ya think?
My dilemma is my field is grass covered, relatively short, and (I'm no expert) appears to be pretty inhospitable to turbine powered models.
What would be a good candidate under these circumstances? I'm a warbird buff and have been partial to the 'trainer' types of jet powered warbirds.
Whad'ya think?
09-03-2003, 01:10 PM
#13
My Feedback: (24)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Daytona Beach
Posts: 6,102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
Branded,
Although not scale and they dont fit into the "Warbird" catagory, there are numerous kits recently released to the turbine market that were designed to operate off fields like yours. Kits like the Facet, KingCat, AV8R/DV8R, Reaper, boomerang or Tango will all do well off a rough short field. If your skill level and wallet are ready for the leap into turbines, the market has kits to fill your needs....
Todd
BTW....Good thread Jeremy
Although not scale and they dont fit into the "Warbird" catagory, there are numerous kits recently released to the turbine market that were designed to operate off fields like yours. Kits like the Facet, KingCat, AV8R/DV8R, Reaper, boomerang or Tango will all do well off a rough short field. If your skill level and wallet are ready for the leap into turbines, the market has kits to fill your needs....
Todd
BTW....Good thread Jeremy
09-03-2003, 01:46 PM
#14
My Feedback: (4)
beginners and jets
You mentioned jets that would be suitable for the beginner and you mentioned two that I think would be overkill for someone and their first jet. The bobcat and the balsa bandit. Although these planes are excellent flying planes I don't think they are beginner jets. The balsa bandit has the speed brake, gear doors, flaps, etc. that the beginner would have to contend with. I think for a first jet having to deal with this would be just a bit overwhelming along with everything else that is going on. Let's not forget that the balsa bandit has it's issues with the sheeting cracking on hard landings and to be honest all beginners will make hard landings. The bobcat is not as "busy" as the BB but it also has it's quirks as well. Like I said before the BB and BC are excellent flying machines and would make excellent 2nd jets, but not beginner airplanes in my opinion.
Patrick
Patrick
09-03-2003, 04:07 PM
#15
Re: hmmm...
Originally posted by LTV_A7D
Let me see if I've got this straight. Don't buy a cheap jet, because one won't really be happy. (Where the heck is Easytiger when you need him?) There's a lot of up front cost in any cheap jet to begin with, which will make one even more unhappy. Yet, if a lack of experience is at the forefront, then one should start with a number of prop jets, trainers etc... How much is all of that going to cost? If a "stepping stone" approach is the way to go, then what age did the 12 year old kid flying the turbine powered BVM Bandit begin his career? Or is flying turbines so easy, even a twelve year old can do it? Okay, so I'm shooting from the hip somewhat. I just think it should be mentioned that there are always exceptions. There's a reason man invented the buddy-box and all of those great RC simulators. I also have a fool-proof way of never crashing a turbine model. Don't fly it. Just let it sit there in your living room and put stanchions around it. LOL
Steve
Let me see if I've got this straight. Don't buy a cheap jet, because one won't really be happy. (Where the heck is Easytiger when you need him?) There's a lot of up front cost in any cheap jet to begin with, which will make one even more unhappy. Yet, if a lack of experience is at the forefront, then one should start with a number of prop jets, trainers etc... How much is all of that going to cost? If a "stepping stone" approach is the way to go, then what age did the 12 year old kid flying the turbine powered BVM Bandit begin his career? Or is flying turbines so easy, even a twelve year old can do it? Okay, so I'm shooting from the hip somewhat. I just think it should be mentioned that there are always exceptions. There's a reason man invented the buddy-box and all of those great RC simulators. I also have a fool-proof way of never crashing a turbine model. Don't fly it. Just let it sit there in your living room and put stanchions around it. LOL
Steve
Steve, I suggest re-reading my posts. I never said don't buy a cheap jet. There are plenty of inexpensive kits that are great, some of which I mentioned. The comment I made was directed at the person who wanted to get into jets for $600 including everything. It's just not going to happen.
The stepping stone approach is just a safe good basic method to getting to jets. Within one year you can advance from your 40 size trainer to a sport model and not spend more than $150 more for a new kit. Use your existing radio, engine, and those items and just buy a new kit. Then, from there you can even build a quickie 500. For $40 worth of materials you can scratch build a quickie 500, and with a sport 46 you'll still get 100mph out of it. There is an awfully quick stepping stone process for about $190 before you build a jet. You will have to have bought a radio for your very first airplane, I suppose there is nothing stopping you from buying a 10X right off the start for your trainer, then you're jet ready anyway. (though a 10X is not necessary for a trainer or a first jet of course) As far as learning on a jet with a buddy box, well, I suppose if you had unlimited funds and a really good instructor sure it's possible, but personally, with years of flying experience and jet experience, I wouldn't train somebody on a jet. I would do as I suggest now and start them off with something more likely to guarantee success. I'm sorry if you do not agree, I just feel I'd rather take a couple years, go through the airplanes to better prepare me for jets, and then feel more comfortable when I drop 5K on a jet.
I don't know what 12 year old kid you are talking about, but it's possible. I said right at the beginning that there are people out there with a natural talent that can do it right from the start. But that is rare. Chip Hyde was unbelieveable at the age of 11, he was also flying since he could walk basically.
I fail to see what you are trying to say in your post other than raising a little dust. Like I said, my methods aren't the only ones, but from my personal experience, and the experience of others, it is a good road to success. Lets face it, if you are wanting to be involved in RC, and you want to do Jets, I hope you have more money than just enough to buy one Jet to learn on. These things aren't the same no maintenance machines as a sport 40 prop job. They require work now and then, they require money, whether in maintenance, fuel (which the cost is higher due to consumption) plugs (DF) wheels (asphalt takes a toll on tires) or something as simple as replacing batteries.
I have seen people learn on airplanes other than trainers, just this past weekend I watched a guy who just got his wings fly with the Extra 300 he trained on. He spent hours on the simulator, it works, he also had a good instructor, I would bet he's also going to break his plane before the year is over. Why? well, because he's very enthusiastic and not afriad to try new things, that is GREAT!!!!!! but it does get you into trouble quick sometimes. Personally, when I'm flying, I would like the guy flying 200mph with his turbine to have had some pretty good experience leading up to actually flying his jet.
Beyond that, the AMA states that you must have completed X# of flights with a high speed aircraft and demonstrate full and competent control of your aircraft for your turbine waiver. To me somebody who is learning on a jet or has only flown trainers cannot demonstrate that.
As for the bobcat and balsa bandit.....
The only reason I mentioned those is that I have known people who started with these birds and they feel they are great first jets, simply because of the flying characteristics. From what I know (which is limited) the bandit is probably the easiest and nicest flying jet in the sport jet catagory with an internal engine and more realistic jet layout (wing, low stab, etc, looks like a jet not a spaceship)
The Bobcat has been told to be a great first jet time and again. Now, not many people probably would build a bandit for their first jet due to the cost, but some might.
Again, I am not experienced with these jets, so it is feedback just like this that is important. I'm only backing up why I mentioned those jets.
When I consider all the people who cut their teeth on underpowered Byron stuff, or heavy and fast aggressors and vipers, I think a fan powered balsa bandit would be a great jet by way of comparison. True gear doors, speedbrakes and flaps add to the complexity, but BVM does a pretty good job of walking you through all of that. Having never flown a bandit, I can't personally comment on the flight characteristics, but it seems to me a larger than average sport jet that is light with lots of wing area would be a great choice
however, that's just my uneducated guess As always, your mileage may vary
09-04-2003, 05:38 AM
#16
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pensacola, FL
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, what about EDF's?
IF you can consider electrics for a minute as REAL model airplanes and not just toys, I think you can offer a possible solution to the expense of getting into this side of our excelent hobby. I have seen vid of the GWS EDF's, like the A-10 they offer, but it is not performing like you guy's mean; it is simply a very small sport/semi-scale airplane.
Yet, I think if you consider the advantages of brushless motor systems, one might just do something meaningfull. Therefore I am making an experiment by taking a BVM Bandit design and scaling it down to a EDF unit and brushless motor combo yet to be picked. When I finish this project, I will be glad to post results and advice on proceeding in this new direction. It's not an overnight project, but I don't think it will take years (refer to the F-14 projects forum).
I will report back when there is something more to report! Mean-time, anyone ahead of me on this, please send advice my way.
Thanks!
RedBarronBen
Yet, I think if you consider the advantages of brushless motor systems, one might just do something meaningfull. Therefore I am making an experiment by taking a BVM Bandit design and scaling it down to a EDF unit and brushless motor combo yet to be picked. When I finish this project, I will be glad to post results and advice on proceeding in this new direction. It's not an overnight project, but I don't think it will take years (refer to the F-14 projects forum).
I will report back when there is something more to report! Mean-time, anyone ahead of me on this, please send advice my way.
Thanks!
RedBarronBen
09-04-2003, 10:18 AM
#17
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Private, ON, CANADA
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
Hi Jeremy:
From a fellow Canuck, just getting (re)interested in DF/EDF. I enjoyed and appreciated your posts very much.
Don't discount the older entry level kits that are out of production though. Some of them were very worthwhile and are still to be found finished and NIB.
Cheers,
From a fellow Canuck, just getting (re)interested in DF/EDF. I enjoyed and appreciated your posts very much.
Don't discount the older entry level kits that are out of production though. Some of them were very worthwhile and are still to be found finished and NIB.
Cheers,
09-04-2003, 04:41 PM
#18
So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
The electrics are fine, I've seen some really amazing things from them, but by the time you spend the money for a really good performing electric you are also at the same cost as most DF jets anyway. The EDF stuff isn't as big yet for the most part, it's getting there though. The El Bandito is already a smaller electric version of the Bandit and looks really promising, I think with an MW44 it would be kickass! LOL
09-08-2003, 11:49 AM
#19
RE: So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
I received a PM with some questions that I felt should go here as well, also, they are some questions that I am not 100% educated on.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hi Jeremy
I am subscribed to your thread on the subject.
I appreciate you trying to help everybody.
I am working on my first turbine jet & want to know:
1- is the distance between the turbine & ss pipe crirtical & how
to determine that distance.
2- where to place the turbine components inside the jet to avoid
interference.
3- the best way to do a range check
4- dealing with residual heat at the tail section on the jet.
5- hot to avoid wet or hot starts.
I probably will have more questions as I make progress
thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. From what I have been told, the general rule of thumb for an engine into a SS pipe should be approximately 3/16" from the end of the turbine tail pipe to the entrance of the bell mouth on the pipe. (see the picture below)
2. The big trick is to place your fuel pump as far as possible from your receiver and ECU. I try to stay at least 5" away if possible. As for the antenna, I like whip antenna's, but if you don't want to do that, a good trick is to put a piece of outer nyrod down the leading edge of the wing when you build it, and then put your antenna in the inner nyrod portion, when you plug your wing in slide the inner nyrod into the outer sleeve. I would never run my antenna down the inside of the fuse in a turbine bird with a SS pipe, or down the tail end of a ducted fan if the back end was composed of alot of carbon fiber.
3. When I range check my jet, I first do a range check with antenna down and walk 100 paces from the model. Then do it again with the engine running (be sure to have a helper holding the jet when doing this one)
4. Residual heat really isn't as big an issue as you might think. The SS pipe should be double walled with a third tube called the ejector tube. There is a 3/16" gap between all the tubes. The tubes are separated with a crimped piece of SS at both ends. If you have a concern with residual heat (as I did on my exocet) use a piece of BVM's heat shield ceramic blanket in the back of your jet. When the jet is flying the cooling is very good, it is if you are doing extended run ups on the ground where no air is moving around the outside of the pipe that it gets hot.
5. To avoid wet starts I have always shut down my engine by turning off the manual fuel valve, that way it burns out all the fuel as the pump can't draw more in when the engine actually stops running. Should I have a flame out I just run some air back through my engine before the next start ( I still run air start engines and I prefer them in all honesty) I have only had one wet start and it was my fault. I had the receiver battery to low (just doing a run in the yard, no intent to fly) and I had the fuel ramp start just as the receiver battery went below it's limit to allow a start. The next start I never even thought about the raw fuel in there but it was just a small puff of flame and it was fine.
Of course there are many here more experienced than I am, hopefully they will add their 2 cents
Jeremy
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hi Jeremy
I am subscribed to your thread on the subject.
I appreciate you trying to help everybody.
I am working on my first turbine jet & want to know:
1- is the distance between the turbine & ss pipe crirtical & how
to determine that distance.
2- where to place the turbine components inside the jet to avoid
interference.
3- the best way to do a range check
4- dealing with residual heat at the tail section on the jet.
5- hot to avoid wet or hot starts.
I probably will have more questions as I make progress
thanks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. From what I have been told, the general rule of thumb for an engine into a SS pipe should be approximately 3/16" from the end of the turbine tail pipe to the entrance of the bell mouth on the pipe. (see the picture below)
2. The big trick is to place your fuel pump as far as possible from your receiver and ECU. I try to stay at least 5" away if possible. As for the antenna, I like whip antenna's, but if you don't want to do that, a good trick is to put a piece of outer nyrod down the leading edge of the wing when you build it, and then put your antenna in the inner nyrod portion, when you plug your wing in slide the inner nyrod into the outer sleeve. I would never run my antenna down the inside of the fuse in a turbine bird with a SS pipe, or down the tail end of a ducted fan if the back end was composed of alot of carbon fiber.
3. When I range check my jet, I first do a range check with antenna down and walk 100 paces from the model. Then do it again with the engine running (be sure to have a helper holding the jet when doing this one)
4. Residual heat really isn't as big an issue as you might think. The SS pipe should be double walled with a third tube called the ejector tube. There is a 3/16" gap between all the tubes. The tubes are separated with a crimped piece of SS at both ends. If you have a concern with residual heat (as I did on my exocet) use a piece of BVM's heat shield ceramic blanket in the back of your jet. When the jet is flying the cooling is very good, it is if you are doing extended run ups on the ground where no air is moving around the outside of the pipe that it gets hot.
5. To avoid wet starts I have always shut down my engine by turning off the manual fuel valve, that way it burns out all the fuel as the pump can't draw more in when the engine actually stops running. Should I have a flame out I just run some air back through my engine before the next start ( I still run air start engines and I prefer them in all honesty) I have only had one wet start and it was my fault. I had the receiver battery to low (just doing a run in the yard, no intent to fly) and I had the fuel ramp start just as the receiver battery went below it's limit to allow a start. The next start I never even thought about the raw fuel in there but it was just a small puff of flame and it was fine.
Of course there are many here more experienced than I am, hopefully they will add their 2 cents
Jeremy
09-08-2003, 12:06 PM
#20
My Feedback: (14)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: St. Mary\'s City,
MD
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Well, what about EDF's?
Yet, I think if you consider the advantages of brushless motor systems, one might just do something meaningfull. Therefore I am making an experiment by taking a BVM Bandit design and scaling it down to a EDF unit and brushless motor combo yet to be picked. When I finish this project, I will be glad to post results and advice on proceeding in this new direction. It's not an overnight project, but I don't think it will take years (refer to the F-14 projects forum).
I will report back when there is something more to report! Mean-time, anyone ahead of me on this, please send advice my way.
Thanks!
RedBarronBen
I will report back when there is something more to report! Mean-time, anyone ahead of me on this, please send advice my way.
Thanks!
RedBarronBen
10-14-2003, 06:08 AM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: London, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
For what it's worth you should check out the site at easytoflyjets.netfirms.com to see first jets for the average competant club RC flyer who's ready to get into jet flying.
10-14-2003, 06:20 PM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Charlotte,
NC
Posts: 1,920
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
Well, I just got through reading everything. WOW. I just love to see people who actually care about the beginners. I just got started in RC planes (regular flying ones that is.....not jets) about 2 years ago. I'm now 14, not at all the kind of person that would have a job yet to be able to save the amount of money to buy a good, inexpensive jet let alone a helicopter (that is what I will be getting into next w/ some money that I save up.) Well, I just got home from a Airshow on Saturday, and I saw a Tubine F-14 Tomcat flying. WOW. What a sight. All the equipment that the guy had. I mean........WOAAAAA........Propane, um.....fire extinguisher.....the works.......I know that you just couldn't go out, buy a turbine jet, and just go and fly it at your field. Don't you have to have some kind of ground schooling or training on how to exactly start the turbines, and safety. This safety would be a major issue. That is what the man on the intercom said while the owner of the jet was getting it started (about the ground schooling especially for the turbine). Just wanted to know what kind of liscenses that you have to have to start flying the jets w/ turbies. Another praise for the incredible job that you have done with explaining pretty much all that there is to know about DF, and turbines. I can't believe how much you typed. How long did it take you to type all of that. INCREDIBLE. Thanks ONCE AGAIN for what you have told everyone.
Michael Carr
[email protected]
AIM and Yahoo! Screename: xp3viper
"Why drive when you can fly?"
"The second greatest thrill known to man is taking off, the first is landing"
"If you love your plane, set it free, if it doesn't come back then you should've checked your batteries....."
"Hey, Watch This.......
........OH S****......."
Michael Carr
[email protected]
AIM and Yahoo! Screename: xp3viper
"Why drive when you can fly?"
"The second greatest thrill known to man is taking off, the first is landing"
"If you love your plane, set it free, if it doesn't come back then you should've checked your batteries....."
"Hey, Watch This.......
........OH S****......."
10-14-2003, 09:23 PM
#23
RE: So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
hey Iflynething,
Its guys like you who appreciate the posts that are the reason I make them Thank you for reading it and I hope that you can use some of the info to make a transition to jets one day
As for licensing, in the US it's true you do need a turbine waiver, for that to happen you have to find a CD (I believe) who is available to sign you off with your waiver, I'm not totally sure what the ground schooling is, but you have to prove yourself compentent in skill and mentallity (though I think that's debatable at times LOL) to operate a model turbine jet. Here in Canada that's not necessary, though I did have to be signed off to fly in the US as well, which I did get completed
Its guys like you who appreciate the posts that are the reason I make them
Thank you for reading it and I hope that you can use some of the info to make a transition to jets one day As for licensing, in the US it's true you do need a turbine waiver, for that to happen you have to find a CD (I believe) who is available to sign you off with your waiver, I'm not totally sure what the ground schooling is, but you have to prove yourself compentent in skill and mentallity (though I think that's debatable at times LOL) to operate a model turbine jet. Here in Canada that's not necessary, though I did have to be signed off to fly in the US as well, which I did get completed
10-16-2003, 04:47 AM
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
Well done Jeremy !!
Fantastic article for beginners, as myself, just starting out in jets.
There's one line in your first post I like to question though, not picking on your article, like I said it's great, but some people might interpret it wrong.
You wrote; " use the best radio gear you can afford " What I would like to see there is: "the best radio gear you can get"
For sure that's what you meant but average servo's could be just affordable for many flyers while they got no place in a jet, only the best will qualify IMHO.
If you can't afford the top line of servo's yet, be patient and save until you can buy them, you won't regret it later.
Just my 2 cnts,
Keep up the good work Jeremy
guys like you lift this place up, THANKS
Gert.
Fantastic article for beginners, as myself, just starting out in jets.
There's one line in your first post I like to question though, not picking on your article, like I said it's great, but some people might interpret it wrong.
You wrote; " use the best radio gear you can afford " What I would like to see there is: "the best radio gear you can get"
For sure that's what you meant but average servo's could be just affordable for many flyers while they got no place in a jet, only the best will qualify IMHO.
If you can't afford the top line of servo's yet, be patient and save until you can buy them, you won't regret it later.
Just my 2 cnts,
Keep up the good work Jeremy
guys like you lift this place up, THANKS
Gert.
10-16-2003, 01:09 PM
#25
RE: So you wanna fly jets? A beginners guide to jets
" use the best radio gear you can afford " What I would like to see there is: "the best radio gear you can get"
I agree with you for the most part, perhaps what I should have said was "use the best radio gear you can afford for the intended application" here is why I put what I had already put.
It was advice that I was given when I started apprenticing as a machinist, I was told, "for starting out, there are certain tools where you can get away with less expensive, but still perfectly useable ones, but the ones you will use constantly, such as calipers, are the ones where you should put your best money."
In other words, if the instructions call for a 75oz servo, a digital would be the absolute best, but a 75oz non digital will work, but DO NOT try to scrimp even more by putting in a 50oz sport servo. I think when it comes to turbines the average turbine flier (is there an "average" turbine flier lol) knows that they are spending big $$$. But for the average Ducted Fan, I don't think digitals are necessary. The best radio gear you can get would imply that even a very first jet would require a PCM10X and 955S receiver, and all digital servo's. When in all reality, a Jet like a Yellow aircraft starfire can be flown perfectly well and safely with a 6 channel non computer radio and ball bearing servo's. However, if you can afford a PCM10X and digitals, by all means, buy them, they will be more useful down the road.
For many people, as it was with myself, building up an arsenal of digital servo's meant taking some time. My first experience with good servo's was in pattern. When I built my first competitive airplane, I used standard ball bearing servo's. When I finally upgraded to coreless the difference was night and day! The standard servo's worked perfectly fine, the coreless worked better, but when I first built that bird, I was 16, and had to buy in small increments.
Then, when I moved to Jets, I built my first Ducted Fan (a cyclone) and used standard ball bearing servo's, and they were perfectly acceptable for a 150mph to 160mph fan jet.
I was still building up my supply of "really good" gear. When I built my first turbine jet (Kangaroo) I knew that non digital servo's, while available with the needed torque, just weren't worth the risk. That is when I really sat down and "bought the best I could afford" I put all JR8411's in it with a coreless on the rudders and speed brake. I also flew it with a JR XP8103, while I flew that, I upgraded to the PCM10SXII and by then I was totally hooked, my "recreational spending funds" that were often used for more guitars and CD's and stuff like that quickly switched to buying the best servo's and wheels and brakes etc. Now, it's almost kind of an ego thing I guess, I LIKE having the best I can get, not to flaunt it, but for some stupid reason it makes me feel like I"ve accomplished something, but beyond that, it also gives me good equipment confidence. And in jets, confidence in your gear is a HUGE part of the battle