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Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

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Old 08-10-2012, 01:14 PM
  #26
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors


Quote:
ORIGINAL: DUCMOZ

Hi all, this is another question that could come up.

If some friends believe that Turbine Tucano should be allowed in a jet events, then, should a electric powered Tucano be allowed in an event like E-jets that is dedicated to Electric Ducted Fan ? Please don't get me wrong, I love the Carf Tucano and I probably get one but I think the air frame should be the deciding factor and not the power source.

Behzad
Sure, if the Tucano is powered by a EDF unit.
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:16 PM
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik R

Bob,

I appreciate your asseessment of the afterburner.If anyone had complained to me about the Marchetti or the glider,I would've taken appropriate action to remedy the situation.George is a good guy,and would've complied with whatever we came up with to keep it safe,and everyone comfortable.I'm sure you appreciate the infinite logistical challenges to pull off a meet safely,yet laid back,so everyone has fun.I realized years ago,that there's zero chance of keeping everyone happy,all the time at these events.We make the judgement calls based on safety first,then optimizing everyone's fun factor.I hope you had fun.Take care,

Erik
Erik,

I didn't complain because there was nothing to complain about. I would have let both guys fly at the event and neither was doing anything stupid or inconsiderate, so we made adjustments and kept flying. My point was just that, in the case of those two airplanes, more attention to where they were and what they were doing was required to keep comfortable separation. You go along to get along...

We did have a *great* time at Hamburg and we'll be back - although the guy who yelled at my son because I wouldn't taxi out when somebody was landing did piss me off, but I got over it fast. We're pretty easy to get along with...

Did I mention it was hot...

Bob
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:21 PM
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

Bob,

Didn't hear about that either.Our flightline guys do a great job overall.Glad you had fun.Don't want to hijack the thread.Take care,

Erik
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:22 PM
  #29
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors


Quote:
ORIGINAL: DUCMOZ

Hi all, this is another question that could come up.

If some friends believe that Turbine Tucano should be allowed in a jet events, then, should a electric powered Tucano be allowed in an event like E-jets that is dedicated to Electric Ducted Fan ? Please don't get me wrong, I love the Carf Tucano and I probably get one but I think the air frame should be the deciding factor and not the power source.

Behzad
If I was CD'ing an E-jets event, I'd let an electric CARF Tucano fly. I've seen one down at the Joe Nall eWeek and its a very impressive aircraft to be electric powered. I'm sure Kirk's will be impressive as well and most guys at an E-jets event would enjoy seeing it fly. Now if he's going up every 5 minutes, then some guys might get annoyed, but with the $'s in batteries for an electric CARF Tucano, I doubt that you'd see it fly more than once every hour or two, at most. I think the one at eWeek flew once a day, on average...

Bob
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:40 PM
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rhklenke

If I was CD'ing an E-jets event, I'd let an electric CARF Tucano fly. I've seen one down at the Joe Nall eWeek and its a very impressive aircraft to be electric powered. I'm sure Kirk's will be impressive as well and most guys at an E-jets event would enjoy seeing it fly. Now if he's going up every 5 minutes, then some guys might get annoyed, but with the $'s in batteries for an electric CARF Tucano, I doubt that you'd see it fly more than once every hour or two, at most. I think the one at eWeek flew once a day, on average...

Bob
Bob,

I use a PowerLab 8 charger and Meanwell 24V, 2000W, 60A power supply for charging. In my 1/6th scale Hawker Hunter I use four 7-cell 5,000mAh packs. Turn around time for charging all 4 packs is 45 minutes. I'll have the Hunter at Jets Over Whidbey at the end of this month, E-Jets International in Sept, and Best In The West in Oct.

By the way, if you ever have any questions about converting an airframe to EDF, feel free to contact me.

Kirk
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:54 PM
  #31
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

actually Kirk, since I work the flightline for Joe C at BITW (for now anyways)
and I dont want to step on Joe's toes, but I would allow you to bring the Electric
powered Toucano to BITW this year.

As long as its the weekend before the event as we have alot of grass to cut down
to make room for parking so you can use it out there for us
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:56 PM
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

I love it Todd.  You put me up for the week and we'll get the grass cut.  We could even use the Hunter to blow the grass clippings into the next state

Kirk
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:43 PM
  #33
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

Good questions Kirk. Even if you wanted to keep the Tucano on the ground for display at any given "jet" event for above reasons, most guys would probably enjoy and appreciate a static display of something like this. Of course the whole time everyone would want to know what type of turboprop you had under the hood.

I think at an event like EJets Int'l, most guys would try to talk you into flying it. It's just go too many common technological items to not be a valid flying model at an EDF only event. Since this type of aircraft is used as a primary jet transition trainer it can fly similar patterns of a scale military routine and look right doing it. You could easily go up and fly with the large scale EDF jets and be at home more than an Electra scorching by at 220 mph. But that's just an opinion, and I'm not a CD so it doesn't count.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:37 PM
  #34
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

IUSED TO FLY MY DUCTED FAN AT JET EVENTS IT HAS A PROP IN IT
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:43 PM
  #35
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

i think at a jet contest they schould say turbines only or what ever else they want to fly in it i think the turbine flyers are a little touchy we all fly what we can afford
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:39 PM
  #36
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors


Quote:
ORIGINAL: k_sonn


Bob,

I use a PowerLab 8 charger and Meanwell 24V, 2000W, 60A power supply for charging. In my 1/6th scale Hawker Hunter I use four 7-cell 5,000mAh packs. Turn around time for charging all 4 packs is 45 minutes. I'll have the Hunter at Jets Over Whidbey at the end of this month, E-Jets International in Sept, and Best In The West in Oct.

By the way, if you ever have any questions about converting an airframe to EDF, feel free to contact me.

Kirk
Kirk,

Man, that is some charging setup! That's all the power power my Honda generator puts out... You definitely are on the cutting edge of the EDF world. Bob Belluomini was telling me about your Hunter at Kentucky - I'd love to see it.

The Ford flys well, but I think that the Rafale just didn't have the inlet area...

Bob
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:56 AM
  #37
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors


Quote:
ORIGINAL: LGM Graphix

I've seen this debate many times, I have also seen people turned away at jet events. I think if we followed the basic definition of Jet Propulsion it would clear many things up.

First of all, (and this is my opinion only), a JET rally is for models of ''JET aircraft'' By this logic, it is my personal opinion that turboprops do not belong any more than turbine powered helicopters belong. Lets think of it this way, IF somebody were to host a Turbine powered helicopter event, and you showed up with a Bandit, would you expect to be allowed to fly simply because it is turbine powered? I think not.

We lovingly refer to our model turbines as Jet engines, but for the purpose of a jet rally, it is for Jet aircraft. Our turbines are more correctly Gas Turbines. Jet propulsion can be achieved via high velocity exhaust gasses, or the expulsion of a fluid (for all intents and purposes lets remember that air is considered fluid). This means that ICDF, EDF, pulse jet, or turbine power is accepted as a form of propulsion in a model representation of a JET AIRCRAFT.

Whether powered by a gas turbine or not, a tucano, turbo beaver, turbo raven, etc is NOT a Jet Aircraft, it is still a propellor driven aircraft. While very cool, and possibly acceptable for a noon time demo, it is no more a JET aircraft than a turbine powered helicopter.

When I go to a Jet event, that is what I'm there for, Jets, it's not that I don't like or appreciate other Gas turbine powered aircraft, but there are hundreds if not thousands of events across the world where those models will fit in.

Remember, you are asking about attending a JET rally. Not a Turbine rally. It's no different than attending an electric event like SEFF and hoping you could fly your turbine powered or internal combustion engine powered aircraft. Not going to happen.

In the spirit of comraderie, I suppose it would be up to the CD's discretion, but in actual fact, you are putting the CD in a very difficult spot by asking if he will allow your non ''Jet'' aircraft to fly, even if it WAS powered by a gas turbine. It's not fair to put a CD in that position.

Some have claimed that a tucano can fly as fast as many jets, and while I believe that to be true, so can many hotliner electric gliders, so can a QM40 pylon racer, so can many electric pylon racers, would it be acceptable to fly those at a jet event simply because they can keep up?

Stay in the spirit of the intended event and fly aircraft which the event is put on for. Jet rallies are for Jets, simple as that.

This of course is one mans opinion and I do appreciate all forms of flight, so don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not knocking somebody else's project, just expressing my opinion as a past CD, as well as an attendee of events.
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Old 08-11-2012, 12:50 PM
  #38
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

I think one the big difference in the case of an electric turbo prop Tucano and a micro gas turbine powered airframe is the simulation of a turbine in the Tucano powered by an electric motor and propelled by porp blades. While the gas turbine powered jet is actually propelled by the thrust of a micro gas turbine.

On the edf jets. I have yet to formulate a thought.

Steve
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:55 AM
  #39
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

I know I said I felt my questions were answered but a couple more came up when talking with my local fellow turbine flyers.  The question is, will a turbo prop powered Tuncano fly on the turbine if the prop was removed?  If it cannot fly without the prop doesn't that fact alone make it a prop plane regardless of what is used to turn the prop?  And if it can't fly without the prop why is it classified as a jet aircraft instead of a prop plane?  Thanks in advance for providing answers to these questions.

Kirk
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Old 08-12-2012, 11:27 AM
  #40
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

Kirk,

You answered your question with the statement "turboprop"... a turboprop is not a turbojet,, one drives a propelllor the other not ! A turboprop may derive up to 10% of its total thrust from exhaust gases with the remainder coming from the propeller. Cut the prop off and the plane will not fly.

I think that the previous CD's have given you good reasons for what they would do at their event.. So, just call ahead and see if you can fly your electric Tuncano.

Rick
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:03 PM
  #41
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

I think where some are getting confused is that in the past, jet events have allowed any "turbine" powered aircraft to attend and be flown. Hence the turbine powered Tucano and turbine powered helicopters seen flying at jet events. The "exception" if you want to call it that, has been the powerplant. An electric powered Tucano in no way meets the exception, or the definition of a "jet aircraft" IMO. Just like an electric powered helicopter would not meet the exception, nor a propeller driven F-4.

David S
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Old 08-12-2012, 01:24 PM
  #42
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

Is it really this hard to find a place to fly an electric Tucano that your only choices are a jet meet?
Some guys only get to fly jets at jet meets or do most of their flying predominately at these events. Why do you want to bring a prop there?
Scott
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:12 PM
  #43
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

Sorry, no, I would not allow you to fly. It says on the event flyer, turbines & ducted fans only. It could be an electric or glow ducted fan or a turbine fixed wing or heli. No prop planes allowed. If you would like to put it on static display that is fine and you can fly it at 6:00 PM when the event ends for the day. Usually the jet guys are pulling out their 3-D birds for evening flying by 6.
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:31 PM
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors


Quote:
ORIGINAL: k_sonn

I know I said I felt my questions were answered but a couple more came up when talking with my local fellow turbine flyers. The question is, will a turbo prop powered Tuncano fly on the turbine if the prop was removed? If it cannot fly without the prop doesn't that fact alone make it a prop plane regardless of what is used to turn the prop? And if it can't fly without the prop why is it classified as a jet aircraft instead of a prop plane? Thanks in advance for providing answers to these questions.

Kirk
Kirk,

One thing to consider is that a turbo-prop requires a turbine waiver. Thus, in most modeler's minds, they fall into the same category as turbine-powered jets. Also, most turbo-prop owners also own, (and usually bring to events) several true turbine-powered jets.

Bob
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:59 PM
  #45
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

David, Dan, and Bob,

Thanks for the taking the time to answer my questions.  Much appreciated.

Kirk
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:52 PM
  #46
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

Kirk,

I have always operated under the understanding that a "Jet Event" entry airplane needs to m eetAT LEAST one of two criteria:

It is EITHER a turbine powered, or a jet (no prop)-or ideally, it is both. I think the threshold requirement is that your aircraft be EITHER of the two, rather than trying to define the plane that enters in the event as having to be singularly only one of the two. For the large part, most of our aircraft on this forum check off as BOTH turbine and jet. Unfortunately an electric Tucano is NEITHER a jet, NOR turbine powered and would be a tough sell since it doesn't meet EITHER of the threshold requirements. EDF jets are still jets. Turbine Tucanos are still turbine powered. Electric Tucanos are neither.

Get a plane that matches any of those two requirements, and you will run into much less static and have a fair argument as to why you should be allowed to fly. Just my 0.02 cents.

Shaz
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Old 08-12-2012, 08:15 PM
  #47
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

Tucano is maybe turbine powered but is not a jet. Helicopter may be turbine powered but it is not a jet.

I have had people ask to bring a jet like plane that is powered by a 2 stroke spinning a prop to our jet event. Same with a turbine powered Raven, Sorry in my opion it is not a jet.

We list our event as a jet being powered by a turbine, ducted fan or EDF.

I will not event get into an electric powered Tucano.

Clay

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Old 08-13-2012, 09:49 AM
  #48
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

Clay : that hurts, good thing I sold the raven ( turbo-prop) key word turbo .
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:04 AM
  #49
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors



Thanks for the response Clay. The former CD for JOW, who is also the VP for the JPO, declared the same thing a few years ago. Basically, if it needs a prop or rotor to fly, it's not a jet even if it uses a turbine to turn a prop or rotor.

Just for kicks, would an EDF powered glider be allowed to fly at events where turbine powered gliders are flown?

Kirk

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Old 08-13-2012, 10:23 AM
  #50
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Default RE: Question to Jet Event Contest Directors

Well,

The President of the JPO just told me "they require a turbine waiver which makes them turbine powered aircraft so yes they should be allowed to fly".

Beave


Quote:
ORIGINAL: k_sonn



Thanks for the response Clay. The former CD for JOW, who is also the VP for the JPO, declared the same thing a few years ago. Basically, if it needs a prop or rotor to fly, it's not a jet even if it uses a turbine to turn a prop or rotor.

Just for kicks, would an EDF powered glider be allowed to fly at events where turbine powered gliders are flown?

Kirk

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