k_sonn

My Feedback: (32)

I'm looking into building a CARFTucano but instead of using a turbo prop I plan to use an electric motor. I noticed for a few years there have been CARFTucanos flying at Jet events and was wondering if I built one with an electric motor would I be able to fly it at a Jet Event. If not, please explain why not. I understand that many guys may have an opinionbut I would like to hear fromCDs who make decisions onwhat airframes can fly at a jetevent.Thanks in advance.

Kirk

Erik R

My Feedback: (32)

Kirk,

Just finished the Hamburg Summer Afterburner.Sticky subject there.I'm not inclined to turn anyone away,but I think you've got an uphill battle here.Turboprops,also called jetprops,have a turbine engine turning the prop.You're asking to bring a prop plane without a turbine engine to a jet event.By definition,spirit and intent of a jet event,it doesn't fit.

By bringing it,you're putting the cd on the spot.If the flightline is full,and you're flying that,you can bet he's going to get an earfull from a jet guy waiting to fly.I would humbly suggest that you don't put him in that position.Nobody will want to turn you away,but they may have to.Maybe you could find other,more suitable events to fly your Tucano.Good luck,

Erik

Harley Condra

My Feedback: (4)

In my opinion, a "Jet Event" is just that. An event for jets.
Many contest directors have classified turboprops as jets, as turboprops consist of a turbine engine with a free turbine which drives the gear box and prop. I have no problem with that at all.

So, using this critera, how could you possibly classify an electric motor turning a propellor a jet? Fits the same catagory as a propellor powered foamie.
To me, that is the same thing as calling an O.S. Max .61 powered propellor driven Great Planes F-4 a jet and allowing it to be flown at a jet meet.

David Searles

My Feedback: (49)

Kirk,

A Tucano powered by an electric motor does not meet the description of a jet powered aircraft. It is a prop plane powered by an electric motor. Ducted fans are accepted, electric or IC, unless the meet is specifically designated turbines only.

I am a turbine CD. I would not allow it to be flown.

David S

Joe C

My Feedback: (23)

Hi Kirk,
I would have to agree, any plane/jet powered by a jet engine is fine to fly at at jet event. I saw one fly at Joe Nall it was awesome, an electric powered Comp-Arf Tucano.

LGM Graphix

My Feedback: (22)

I've seen this debate many times, I have also seen people turned away at jet events. I think if we followed the basic definition of Jet Propulsion it would clear many things up.

First of all, (and this is my opinion only), a JET rally is for models of "JET aircraft" By this logic, it is my personal opinion that turboprops do not belong any more than turbine powered helicopters belong. Lets think of it this way, IF somebody were to host a Turbine powered helicopter event, and you showed up with a Bandit, would you expect to be allowed to fly simply because it is turbine powered? I think not.

We lovingly refer to our model turbines as Jet engines, but for the purpose of a jet rally, it is for Jet aircraft. Our turbines are more correctly Gas Turbines. Jet propulsion can be achieved via high velocity exhaust gasses, or the expulsion of a fluid (for all intents and purposes lets remember that air is considered fluid). This means that ICDF, EDF, pulse jet, or turbine power is accepted as a form of propulsion in a model representation of a JET AIRCRAFT.

Whether powered by a gas turbine or not, a tucano, turbo beaver, turbo raven, etc is NOT a Jet Aircraft, it is still a propellor driven aircraft. While very cool, and possibly acceptable for a noon time demo, it is no more a JET aircraft than a turbine powered helicopter.

When I go to a Jet event, that is what I'm there for, Jets, it's not that I don't like or appreciate other Gas turbine powered aircraft, but there are hundreds if not thousands of events across the world where those models will fit in.

Remember, you are asking about attending a JET rally. Not a Turbine rally. It's no different than attending an electric event like SEFF and hoping you could fly your turbine powered or internal combustion engine powered aircraft. Not going to happen.

In the spirit of comraderie, I suppose it would be up to the CD's discretion, but in actual fact, you are putting the CD in a very difficult spot by asking if he will allow your non "Jet" aircraft to fly, even if it WAS powered by a gas turbine. It's not fair to put a CD in that position.

Some have claimed that a tucano can fly as fast as many jets, and while I believe that to be true, so can many hotliner electric gliders, so can a QM40 pylon racer, so can many electric pylon racers, would it be acceptable to fly those at a jet event simply because they can keep up?

Stay in the spirit of the intended event and fly aircraft which the event is put on for. Jet rallies are for Jets, simple as that.

This of course is one mans opinion and I do appreciate all forms of flight, so don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not knocking somebody else's project, just expressing my opinion as a past CD, as well as an attendee of events.

Bob_B

My Feedback: (11)

I love watching the Tucanos fly at the meets and have on occasion spotted for Boli. However I do not consider them to be a "jet" regardless of what's spinning the paddles up front.

I think of a "jet" as a Type of aircraft that uses a power system to create thrust that exhausts from a nacelle or thrust tube to push the aircraft, to describe the aircraft, not the power system.

Anything else is simply not a "Jet" in my opinion.

k_sonn

My Feedback: (32)

Erik, Harely, David, and Joe thanks for the responses.  Very much appreciated but I am having a hard time understanding some of the reasoning so please bare with my questions and help me to understand.

 

Are jet events that are not turbine only or EDF only about airframes or power plants?  If they are about specific types of power plants I completely understand the reasoning but if the event is airframe based, then I don’t understand because jets don’t use an external prop to move it through the air.  I don’t see the difference between an electric motor turning a prop to simulate a turbo prop power plant and an electric motor turning a fan inside of a duct to simulate a turbine.  Is there really a difference as to what power plant is used?  Thanks guys for baring with my questions and taking the time to respond.

Jetmodeler

Pushing the limits, I believe there are more appropriate events to take an electric prop airplane to, i.e. warbird events. The turboprop motor is a form of a jet engine and as such they are part of the jet modeling community,and accepted at jet meets, and so far the aircraft have the performance and pilot discipline to fit in well with the jet models in the same flight pattern, would miss them if the guys didn't bring them. Question for you, do you feel a turbine belongs at an electric prop meet? Answer that honestly and then your can answer your own question.
Jim Hiller

Bob_B

My Feedback: (11)

Good point Jim. So does that mean the event called E-Jets shouldONLY allow e-powered jets? Or do they allow Turbine powered jets to fly after hours as proposed for this year?

Harley Condra

My Feedback: (4)

By definition, a jet meet is an event for jet propelled airframes. EDF qualifies just as a turbine does....Does it matter whether it is a blast of low or high energy air blowing down a tailpipe used to propel the airframe?
I have been flying at jet meets since 1999, and since turboprops came around the CD's have allowed turboprops to participate. I have never seen or heard of one being sent home.

Next time you go to Kentucky, Florida Jets, First in Flight, or any other events, have a look around. You will see a couple of turboprops at most event. It is up to the discression of the CD.
Many people drive a thousand miles or more to participate, so would you turn a turboprop flyer down?

As a long time CD and Leader Member (since 1974), I would allow them to fly at my meet (and I have CD'd jet meets before).

Does it matter what is flown after hours?

k_sonn

My Feedback: (32)

Jim,

I think you answeredthe question yourself. An electric prop event is based onthe aircraft having an electric power plant. I'm trying to get clarity on what a jet event is based on, airframes or power plants. If they're based on power plants, then only airframes with thatspecific type of power plant should be allowed. If they're based on airframes, then only those specific airframe types should be allowed regardless of what power plant is used. Turbo prop airframesand jet events seem to be a grey area and I'm simplyasking for clarity.

Kirk

k_sonn

My Feedback: (32)

Harley, thanks for the response.

Kirk

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

This is an interesting question and has quite a few sides. I agree with Eric in that bringing your electric Tucano to a jet event would put the CD in a tight spot and he would either have to tell you no, or have some jet guy(s) get mad at him for letting you fly. Its an either/or proposition and I can guarantee you that if you flew your electric Tucano at a jet meet, either you or the CD would hear about it - its the nature of the crowd.

At the same time, there was a turbo-prop CARF Marchetti that was flown at the Hamburg event and it did not fit into the traffic pattern at all. I've flown jets with Boli's Tucano many times, and its not an issue - because his Tucano is fast and he flys it in the pattern like a jet. The Marchetti was *very* slow and was flown like a prop plane. My son was up with it with his Euro and I had to call him to make maneuvers specifically to avoid the Marchetti on several occasions. Also at Hamburg there was a turbine glider that was flown at the same time as jets and it didn't fit into the pattern either. Again, I spotted for someone in our group who was flying a jet with the glider (I forgot who) and he had to avoid the glider on several occasions as well. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have been flown at the event nor am I complaining about them being allowed to fly there (Hamburg was great fun - although in case you were wondering, it was HOT ), I'm just pointing out that those two aircraft didn't really "fit in."

As a CD, I would allow turboprops to be flown, but I think I might talk to the pilots of those aircraft about fitting into the pattern. Turbine-powered gliders I might ask to fly at a specific time, or at least by themselves, and I don't think I'd allow the electric Tucano to fly. At least you can defend the turboprops and gliders as requiring a waiver, but an electric prop plane is not a jet and doesn't require a waiver so it would be hard to explain to the other pilots there why you let it fly... BTW, as a CD, I would also restrict the flying of EDF foamies and other small EDFs that can not keep up with the turbines to certain times - as most CD's already do.

Bob

Bob_B

My Feedback: (11)

Geez, Bob I thought you liked dust busters!

FenderBean

I dont think it would be a big deal, one of the best/biggest jet events in the US has all this and seems nobody has a problem with it. KY jets had EDF jets, Turbine power glider, turbo prob planes and even a chopper. I think speeds may be a issue but some of the jet trainers out thee are slower than some turbo props and some EDF jets are faster than turbines. There is always room for error when more than one person is flying, unless everyone flies the same pattern, at the same speed and different altitudes things can always happen I guess. No perfect answer with rc.

George

My Feedback: (57)

A lot of wisdom there ^^^

k_sonn

My Feedback: (32)

Bob, thanks for the response. I agree with Goerge, lots wisdom in your response.

Kirk

k_sonn

My Feedback: (32)

I feel like my questions have been answered.  I would never want to put a CD in tight spot hence the reason for asking before showing up to an event.  Once again, thanks to the CD's for taking the time to answer my questions and for providing the reason(s) why they wouldn't allow an electric powered Tucano fly at a jet event.  Much appreciated.

Kirk

Boomerang1

Put the shoe on the other foot.

Could I fly my speed 280 powered jet at an electric fly in?

If you want to split hairs it does drive a ducted fan until the kero starts to flow! - John.

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

Yes, but the turbine-powered glider and chopper generally did not fly at the same time as jets. I don't recall seeing the chopper fly, but with the turbine-powered glider, most guys landed or didn't go up because they wanted to watch Ali fly it. I know if I was flying when either of those two went up at Ky jets, I would have landed and if on the ground I wouldn't go up. There is enough potential for a mid-air with multiple jets flying the same pattern, but throw in something that is going "against the grain" and the potential goes up enough that I would not fly. In addition, if someone was flying a turbine helicopter on the main flight line or a 3D turbo-prop and hovering on the main flight line at a jet event I was at, I'd speak to the CD and request that they get their own time to fly. Hovering and a typical jet flight pattern are incompatible, and letting them go on at the same time is asking for a collision and IMHO irresponsible on the part of the CD.

The issue with the electric Tucano is not one of the pattern that it would fly, just one of the "intent" of the event and the fact that someone is going to object based on electric prop plane at a "jet" event...

Bob

readyturn

My Feedback: (9)

+1 for your final reply.

I think that you asked a valid question and seeked to have a resolution prior to having any issues at an event. Very nice and thoughtful approach !

Rick

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

I do, but my FEJ Rafale is being converted to a P-60. It just didn't work as an EDF - at least not with my meager conversion skills [&o]

I'm going to keep the F4D as an EDF and Louie and I are kicking around the idea of either converting one of the L1011's to EDF, or building that Rauch 757 I have as an EDF. Somehow I don't think even I could screw up putting a fan into a wing-mounted nacelle...

Bob

Erik R

My Feedback: (32)

Bob,

I appreciate your asseessment of the afterburner.If anyone had complained to me about the Marchetti or the glider,I would've taken appropriate action to remedy the situation.George is a good guy,and would've complied with whatever we came up with to keep it safe,and everyone comfortable.I'm sure you appreciate the infinite logistical challenges to pull off a meet safely,yet laid back,so everyone has fun.I realized years ago,that there's zero chance of keeping everyone happy,all the time at these events.We make the judgement calls based on safety first,then optimizing everyone's fun factor.I hope you had fun.Take care,

Erik

DUCMOZ

Hi all, this is another question that could come up.

If some friends believe that Turbine Tucano should be allowed in a jet events, then, should a electric powered Tucano be allowed in an event like E-jets that is dedicated to Electric Ducted Fan ? Please don't get me wrong, I love the Carf Tucano and I probably get one but I think the air frame should be the deciding factor and not the power source.

Behzad