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  1. #51
    FalconWings's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question


    ORIGINAL: tenacious101010

    I will have to go check the dates on the tech data, by now,it is old. I agree, the manuals made good seats and the JGs were knee savers. I would guess the last changes posted to most of my tech data would be around 1993. I worked F-16 from early in the program. MacDill was the second base to get F-16s, I was there when they arrived, I took the USAF up on an offer to help set up the F-16 at Kunsan also. So far back, I can remember the black nosed F-16s and the early outrageous chaffing and battery thermal runaway issues that resulted in many incidents and surely deaths. We even had 78-003 at Selfridge, thats an old F-16!
    Geez, now that I think of it, I have seen several aircraft I worked in museums and on pedastals in parks. I am suddenly feeling old!
    Heres a few pics from back in the day If anyone is looking for scale reference pictures of F-16s or many other warbirds, here is a link to my page where I posted many pictures from my grandfathers album and many images I took of projects and things I was involved in.
    Denny

    http://rides.webshots.com/album/552141172xfdmUK
    I really wish someone would model an old A model BL 15, with the AIFF grill and the narrow fin base with the threat detect bulging out. It be cool to add the search lights on the nose too.
    Any of you guys flew ADF's?
    Buying Jet Legend? Read here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11372496/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

  2. #52

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    I am not sure who all had ADFs, I taught the Puerto Rico ANG back when it was still a "secret" program to help intercept drug runners. The "headlight" was just too funny to see on the nose. The Florida ANG and the Puerto Rico ANG units were the only units I know for sure had the ADFs, but then thats probably because I taught their people, I am sure there are several more units that had the ADF but dont know who it was.
    Live to Love and laugh, anything else is rubbish!
    A citizen of the universe

  3. #53
    cfircav8r's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    I also have a ton of pictures available and can still get specific views (as long as it isn't of anything confidential or secret). Just PM me if anyone needs something. Here's my favorite pic from Balad '08.
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    The three most useless things to a pilot, the sky above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel on the ground.

  4. #54
    FalconWings's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question


    ORIGINAL: tenacious101010

    I am not sure who all had ADFs, I taught the Puerto Rico ANG back when it was still a ''secret'' program to help intercept drug runners. The ''headlight'' was just too funny to see on the nose. The Florida ANG and the Puerto Rico ANG units were the only units I know for sure had the ADFs, but then thats probably because I taught their people, I am sure there are several more units that had the ADF but dont know who it was.
    I think Ohio ANG had them too. I was with the 156th FS (ANG) when we had ADF's with spot lights. That was one potent spot light, and it did see plenty of action in the Caribbean. Almost lost a few too "in action".
    Buying Jet Legend? Read here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11372496/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

  5. #55
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question


    ORIGINAL: ozief16

    Fender,

    A bunch of random F-16 flight control stuff:

    To pile-on to what goose is saying, the airplane is so tail heavy that in slow-speed, high AOA flt, you can be commanding max alpha (i.e. full aft stick if you want to think of it that way), but the stabs themselves are actually deflected pretty heavily down to prevent a departure. When the airplane does depart, it falls flat at zero airspeed (Ops checked that one accidentally!).

    JR mentioned the Leading Edge Flaps delfecting two degrees up in an earlier post; that's just to help the airplane land. Approach speed is actually well above quit flying speed (the computer won't actually let you stall the plane, it holds a max AOA, so I'm calling it quit-flying-speed). If you look at a viper on the ground, it looks like the LE of the inboard portion of hte wing doesn't line up with the fuse...now you know why. If you were to approach at it's slowest speed, you'd actually drag the tail quite severly. So when you come in faster than a plane wants to land, it gets a bit cranky..especially in cross-winds. Look at the speedbrakes of any F-16 you see at an airshow and the outboard corners are often times ground off from guys pitching up too much on landing or during the aerobrake. I'm sure JR can tell lots of stories of blending corners on speedbrakes.

    Goose also mentioned the computer scaling back the rudder inputs. A lot of guys assume if you roll into knife edge, the plane will hold it for you and that you pushing on the rudder pedals does nothing. Both are false. The jet is set up as a G commanded system (i.e the jet is trimmed for 1G, so there is no trim change from 100kts to 600+kts, because you hold the G the same (centered trim=1G)); so basically when you roll into 90 degrees of bank, the nose falls just like any plane. You can hold the nose up with a bunch of rudder...also like a 'normal' plane. The rudder is actually quite effective and it catches guys when you stick a boot-full in and slew the plane in a way they didn't think it would go. Watch a video of the T-birds and you can see them yawing the jets into formation so the wings all stay parallel, even though the jets are moving laterally.

    Not at all what you asked, but cool Gee-whiz stuff. In relation to what you asked, the stabs work as tailerons at slow speed, the flaps deploy with the gear (as JR mentioned) and will still work as ailerons as well. In fact, there's a regime that you have to watch for pretty carfeully: if you encounter wake turbulence, and rock the stick back and forth rapidly to fight it, the jet assumes you don't want the flaps down and it retracts them (I guess to improve roll authority). That obviously cuts your lift when you're low/slow and guys have slammed the jets on folding gear and ventral fins and everything else. The best thing to do there is add some power and either fly straight through the wake turbulence or just go around.

    I hope this helps...Goose, were you with the IN boys?

    V/R
    Dave
    Yes, but also active duty.. flew all over including chase at EDW with F-22/B2 prg...
    Goose
    Wren Turbines USA, Fromeco Avionics, JetiUSA Flight Team, www.Espritmodel.com www.demonaero.com

  6. #56
    gooseF22's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question


    ORIGINAL: John Redman

    Good grief Buck, the only time I ever saw or heard of a Horent getting behind a Viper was when it was towed behind it by the maintenance crews at an air show! Never in the air!
    Only time a hornet ever got behind me was during a dogfight setup.. and only for about 10 seconds after fights on...
    Goose
    Wren Turbines USA, Fromeco Avionics, JetiUSA Flight Team, www.Espritmodel.com www.demonaero.com

  7. #57
    gooseF22's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question


    ORIGINAL: oliveDrab

    I once knew a pilot in the U.A.E Air Force who was in Tucson, Az for training on the F-16. He had also flown Mirages, not sure exactly which model. I asked him which plane he preferred - the F-16 or the Mirage. I think I remember him saying that for it's intended mission the F-16 was a great aircraft. He hesitated then said he actually preferred the Mirage. Would those two planes fly the same mission, or what the F-16 be more capable of attack missions?

    Mirage is a dog... spanked a few of them
    Goose
    Wren Turbines USA, Fromeco Avionics, JetiUSA Flight Team, www.Espritmodel.com www.demonaero.com

  8. #58
    gooseF22's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question


    ORIGINAL: Bozarth


    ORIGINAL: yeahbaby

    ...when they look in the rear view mirror....after they are done looking at themselves and see a mean green F18 back there gunning' their brains out.
    No rear view mirror in the F-16.

    Kurt
    Thats because its not needed... you can just turn around and look behind you unlike all other less capable aircraft...
    Goose
    Wren Turbines USA, Fromeco Avionics, JetiUSA Flight Team, www.Espritmodel.com www.demonaero.com

  9. #59
    yeahbaby's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    hahahhaa.....get sum get sum.....you all should do a story bout me....hhahaha get sum get sum
    Fifteen is my limit on schnitzengruben baaaby

  10. #60

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question


    ORIGINAL: gooseF22


    ORIGINAL: Bozarth


    ORIGINAL: yeahbaby

    ...when they look in the rear view mirror....after they are done looking at themselves and see a mean green F18 back there gunning' their brains out.
    No rear view mirror in the F-16.

    Kurt
    Thats because its not needed... you can just turn around and look behind you unlike all other less capable aircraft...

    Exactly!

    Kurt

  11. #61
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Oz, I'll give ya a shout re Vegas in a couple weeks...i'm thinking Sin City jets might be easier....still waiting on nov sked.....


    when you boyz are done combing your hair.........Fox5


    ORIGINAL: Bozarth


    ORIGINAL: gooseF22


    ORIGINAL: Bozarth


    ORIGINAL: yeahbaby

    ...when they look in the rear view mirror....after they are done looking at themselves and see a mean green F18 back there gunning' their brains out.
    No rear view mirror in the F-16.

    Kurt
    Thats because its not needed... you can just turn around and look behind you unlike all other less capable aircraft...

    Exactly!

    Kurt
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    Fifteen is my limit on schnitzengruben baaaby

  12. #62
    YellowAircraft's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question


    ORIGINAL: E.N.T.

    Thanks, Dave. I asked this because there are times when you hear people talking
    about things they really don't know about.


    E.N.T.

    Wait...

    There are people talking about things they don't know about?? On the INTERNET?!??!?!

    Uh-oh...


    And I thought I was the only one noticing!
    Yellow Aircraft, JetCat Engines and Turn Key Jets
    yellowaircraftplanesdotcom

  13. #63

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    I went to Jacksonville to train the FANG on the Viper back in '87. Had a good time.

    Story of Buck:
    Once upon a time there was a good little Marine,
    He flew like no one had ever seen.
    Every time he was in a fight he got his butt kicked,
    That is why he flew the Hornet.
    John Redman
    JetCat USA

  14. #64
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    HAHAHAHHA.....well done Lil Fella...but.......i do have a big watch!!!


    Leaving the Aussie ladies behind....if you look close enough on the flight line you can see them throwing panties at us......hahahahha.......you come back and take me to land of big hobby shop? yeaaahhhh baby
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    Fifteen is my limit on schnitzengruben baaaby

  15. #65

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    All in good fun sir. Next time we meet the first one is on me!
    John Redman
    JetCat USA

  16. #66
    yeahbaby's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Oh Hellz No...you my friend always drink for FREE on me!!!

    ORIGINAL: John Redman

    All in good fun sir. Next time we meet the first one is on me!
    Fifteen is my limit on schnitzengruben baaaby

  17. #67

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    You rock brother
    John Redman
    JetCat USA

  18. #68
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    ORIGINAL: gooseF22


    ORIGINAL: John Redman

    Good grief Buck, the only time I ever saw or heard of a Horent getting behind a Viper was when it was towed behind it by the maintenance crews at an air show! Never in the air!
    Only time a hornet ever got behind me was during a dogfight setup.. and only for about 10 seconds after fights on...
    When I was "bogey driving" in the A-4F, the first time I did a performance demo hop against a Hornet, I was all prepared to have my eyes watered. I'd heard all kinds of things about this great new magic jet, but had not had the chance to fight one yet. After it was all said and done, it was more of a confidence boost for me than for the Hornet guy!

    Granted, our A-4's were hot. The 'hump' was gone (damn, that thing was ugly, and for the life of me I can't understand why jet guys here want that dang thing on their rc A-4's...but I digress), anything that could be removed, was. Lead was bolted to the nose for CG. The airframe weighed 10,000 to 10,200 lbs, the engine had 11,400 lbs thrust.

    Anyway, suffice it to say I never worried about fighting a Hornet again after that hop.

    Now an F-16, if he wanted to get slow with me, come on in the phone booth. But if he didn't take the bait, it was gonna be a long day [X(]

    Sluggo

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Sluggo,

    Slow in a Viper..generally a bad idea vs anyone without an alpha limiter

    I remember my first hornet fight...we hit the merge, I think I was pushing five bills (young dumb Lt) and went vertical up (I had a block 50 after all). The hornet went single circle vertical and joined me, and at our second merge (~5-7k higher), I went for the second vertical up leaf...no hornet would hang with the block five oh....much to my surprise the hornet joined me. We'd always heard they were underpowered. In the debrief they informed me they had the new motors...changed that plane for the better!

    I still can't believe they give 24 yr old idiots planes like that to fly!

    Dave

  20. #70

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Cool, John, I was at Jacksonville teaching FANG also in 87. Taught Weapons System for 3 months.
    Live to Love and laugh, anything else is rubbish!
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  21. #71
    VF84sluggo's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question


    ORIGINAL: ozief16

    Sluggo,

    Slow in a Viper..generally a bad idea vs anyone without an alpha limiter
    Exactly...that's why we'd try to get a Viper slow. But there were some guys that knew how to work it anyway...arghhhh!

    But even with the new motors, the Hornet was still not gonna run away from anybody. Not so with that dang Viper. Man, I had a Gun school F-16N guy go by me a 700+!!!

    But that F-18, all they'd do was accelerate quickly to a slow top speed, so good thing he could yank and bank in a tight spot. And being always fuel-critical, about the only way they could have the range to do anything over in the desert was is if you could put wheels on the carrier and drive it up on the beach

    Sluggo

  22. #72

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    You know, Speaking of F-16Ns. If I remember correctly, they had slightly better performance numbers than the F-16 A and C models. Heck, they didnt even have a gun in them, a little weight savings there including ammo, around 700 pounds lighter? At MacDill, new pilots to the aircraft had to have a full load of ammo in the gun just to insure the CG was consistant for them, at least that is what I was told, so we kept a full load of 511 +/-6 rounds. Geez, Its getting tougher to remember this stuff. Guess I better get my books out. I wonder if I still have a 94-50JG for the gun.
    Denny
    Live to Love and laugh, anything else is rubbish!
    A citizen of the universe

  23. #73
    VF84sluggo's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Yes, 'N' models were hotrods. Totally stripped down and light for use as a "bandit." At the merge the tape showed 781 KIAS at 17,000 ft! I was impressed.

    And from what I understand, the Navy wore the airframes out from so many high "g" cycles from using the F-16 in nothing but ACM flying. They ended up parking the jets in desert after the Navy was done with them.

    Sluggo

  24. #74
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo


    ORIGINAL: ozief16

    Sluggo,

    Slow in a Viper..generally a bad idea vs anyone without an alpha limiter
    Exactly...that's why we'd try to get a Viper slow. But there were some guys that knew how to work it anyway...arghhhh!

    But even with the new motors, the Hornet was still not gonna run away from anybody. Not so with that dang Viper. Man, I had a Gun school F-16N guy go by me a 700+!!!

    But that F-18, all they'd do was accelerate quickly to a slow top speed, so good thing he could yank and bank in a tight spot. And being always fuel-critical, about the only way they could have the range to do anything over in the desert was is if you could put wheels on the carrier and drive it up on the beach

    Sluggo
    I'm confused. Surely the F18 has some desirable qualities that prompted the U.S. Navy/Marines to select it. They should've just started building brand new F14's. Or how about a carrier capable F16?

    http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0295.shtml

    "We’re retrieving the seed — then we’re done defending the humans."

  25. #75

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    The Navy prefers, for good reason 2 engine aircraft and the F-16 does have a tailhook. Its not made for carrier landings, just for emergencys on land.
    Live to Love and laugh, anything else is rubbish!
    A citizen of the universe


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