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F-16 pilot control question

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:26 PM
  #1
FenderBean
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Default F-16 pilot control question

I know we have some current and past F-16 pilots and I was wondering what kind of controls the real F-16 has. Is it the typical elevator/rud/aileron setup? I watched a few videos and it looks like it uses flaperons and tailerons. It was hard to tell but even with the flaps down they appeared to move like ailerons and and the same for the elevators. Thanks

okay just found one answer, the f-16 has flaperons, still wondering about the elevators.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:53 PM
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John Redman
 
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

The stabs control pitch. They also control roll in conjunction with the flaperons as necessary by the flight control computer.

As you found the aircraft has flaperons. Flaps are controlled by the gear handle and are one setting. Gear down flaps down, gear up flaps up.

Leading edge flaps continuously operate in flight below supersonic speeds between 2 degrees up and 25 degrees down. They are active when the nose gear is off the ground and operation is triggered by the nose weight on wheel switch.

That enough for you Fender?
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:50 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

It is always amazing to watch the fly-by-wire planes (F-16, B-1, B-2) when they would pull up to sip some gas from my KC-135. Especially while on the boom...if we had an extra pilot on board I'd always go back and watch the refueling. All the surfaces working together for a stable platform.
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:19 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Yelp that works, I think I will get creative with some mixing. Correct me if I am wrong but when the right aileron goes up the right elevator trailing edge goes up correct?
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:32 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Using tailerons by themselves provide a solid roll rate. My best guess, if you mix flaperons with tailerons you will end up with a touchy roll rate, even if just a little mix is applied. I'd mix tailerons only if you want to try out some high alpha stuff.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:45 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Well mine is very sluggish on the roll, so I am guess the tailerons will help. Have you every flown this size with flaps? if so any idea about how much is a good starting point, maybe 10 deg? It lands so nice without them but I still would like to give them a try. I had a hard time landings at GA jets, after I got home I found out why, my radio some how dropped my throws and I was getting waaay more elevator than need plus my balance was off. Not sure how the balance was wrong since I had just checked it after I installed the new gear. I am finally getting around to adding some expo and dual rates, I normally dont fly any expo but figured since the elevators are touchy I figured why not.

Oh just to check my settings right aileron up and the right elevator trailing edge should go up as well correct?

Quote:
ORIGINAL: FalconWings

Using tailerons by themselves provide a solid roll rate. My best guess, if you mix flaperons with tailerons you will end up with a touchy roll rate, even if just a little mix is applied. I'd mix tailerons only if you want to try out some high alpha stuff.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:51 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Hi Fender - I fly mine with the full flying stabs only, tested flaps on my first F-16 but preferred to land without them.
With 60 mm up/down travel on the stabs on both functions (both aileron function and elevator function) the roll rate
is very satisfactory and very straight and level.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:17 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Guy's, I fly an FEJ F16 and I use both flaperons and tailerons during flight. For 11 years I carried out functional tests and fault diagnostics on sea Harrier, Harrier and Hawk flight control systems and decided to set up me jets as per the fule size, if feasable. I use flaps, approx 25 degrees, for both take off and landing with reduced aileron throw and increased taileron throw and its flies sweet. Once the wheels are upI have approx 60:40 roll control between the flaparons and tailerons. This gives the aircraft a nice comfortable roll rate, nice slow controlled landings and the aircraft is never forced into the air during takeoff. Also I see the biggest advantage being the redundancy if you loose the ailerons as you would still have some form of roll control, if reduced slightly in authority, but hopefully enough to get it down.

Cheers

Tim
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:38 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

I kind of played with a 1/8 F-16 and tried all the configurations possible, by sheer curiosity. What I liked best was tailerons matched with flaperons. Just used about 15 degrees for landing. The idea was increasing the lift of the wings without adding drag, as the airplane is already plenty draggy.

The easiest and nicest landings where accomplished this way, and also seemed the plane rolling nicer.

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Old 10-10-2012, 02:41 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question


Quote:
ORIGINAL: FenderBean

Yelp that works, I think I will get creative with some mixing. Correct me if I am wrong but when the right aileron goes up the right elevator trailing edge goes up correct?
Correct!

Mav
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:51 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Quote:
ORIGINAL: John Redman

The stabs control pitch. They also control roll in conjunction with the flaperons as necessary by the flight control computer.

As you found the aircraft has flaperons. Flaps are controlled by the gear handle and are one setting. Gear down flaps down, gear up flaps up.

Leading edge flaps continuously operate in flight below supersonic speeds between 2 degrees up and 25 degrees down. They are active when the nose gear is off the ground and operation is triggered by the nose weight on wheel switch.

That enough for you Fender?
I always wondered how that worked... I just pulled back and the houses got smaller, pushed and they got bigger... rolled, and the showed up on top for a sec... Pulled really hard, went to sleep, woke up a few seconds later, and pulled the trigger because if anyone was behind me, they would now be in front..

can I borrow your airplane chief?..
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:11 AM
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John Redman
 
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Goose, you bust me up! As you know you can have the keys anytime!!!!!

I had to pull out my -1 to verify beofre I posted as it has been a long time since I touched a real girl. The stab deal caught me off gaurd. I initially thoght they only worked as roll control up in the supersonic range. Appears once again I was wrong. God I hope my wife doesn't read this.

By the way, your tanks are in the car ready to ship.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:35 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

thank you Chief!!..

Janes explains this in some of their literature..

Generically, Yes, actually, the higher the angle of attack, the more blending the tails function in roll.. , but the rudder pedal throw begin tapering off...this lessens the effect of adverse yaw.. tailerons are much more effective at Hi AOA..... the most critical angle of attack in the modern fighter is Yaw.. so the flight controls do everything they can to contain yaw within the law limits, as well as pitch... Most modern fighters use this method some way or another until you reach the "post stall" regime of flight.. then its a whole new blending algorythms..

You really cannot set it up like the real thing and expect it to fly that way because the CG in the real thing is way aft compared to models.. the computer flies most modern fighters kinda like flying an arrow feathers first. Because the CG is so aft, the tails deflect to start the aircraft turning, then neutralize and trim to hold whatever command is given.. then to unload, they go opposite and return to neutral.... we cant do that in a model. so when guys put flaps and such down, the models dont fly the same... but they still look very cool... ..
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:37 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

I have tailerons/ailerons on my F-16. It took a few flights to get it dialed in, but it works well. My tailerons move about 10mm.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:56 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

good stuff looks like I am on the right path, I will try both this weekend and report back. Thanks guys
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:48 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Fender,

A bunch of random F-16 flight control stuff:

To pile-on to what goose is saying, the airplane is so tail heavy that in slow-speed, high AOA flt, you can be commanding max alpha (i.e. full aft stick if you want to think of it that way), but the stabs themselves are actually deflected pretty heavily down to prevent a departure. When the airplane does depart, it falls flat at zero airspeed (Ops checked that one accidentally!).

JR mentioned the Leading Edge Flaps delfecting two degrees up in an earlier post; that's just to help the airplane land. Approach speed is actually well above quit flying speed (the computer won't actually let you stall the plane, it holds a max AOA, so I'm calling it quit-flying-speed). If you look at a viper on the ground, it looks like the LE of the inboard portion of hte wing doesn't line up with the fuse...now you know why. If you were to approach at it's slowest speed, you'd actually drag the tail quite severly. So when you come in faster than a plane wants to land, it gets a bit cranky..especially in cross-winds. Look at the speedbrakes of any F-16 you see at an airshow and the outboard corners are often times ground off from guys pitching up too much on landing or during the aerobrake. I'm sure JR can tell lots of stories of blending corners on speedbrakes.

Goose also mentioned the computer scaling back the rudder inputs. A lot of guys assume if you roll into knife edge, the plane will hold it for you and that you pushing on the rudder pedals does nothing. Both are false. The jet is set up as a G commanded system (i.e the jet is trimmed for 1G, so there is no trim change from 100kts to 600+kts, because you hold the G the same (centered trim=1G)); so basically when you roll into 90 degrees of bank, the nose falls just like any plane. You can hold the nose up with a bunch of rudder...also like a 'normal' plane. The rudder is actually quite effective and it catches guys when you stick a boot-full in and slew the plane in a way they didn't think it would go. Watch a video of the T-birds and you can see them yawing the jets into formation so the wings all stay parallel, even though the jets are moving laterally.

Not at all what you asked, but cool Gee-whiz stuff. In relation to what you asked, the stabs work as tailerons at slow speed, the flaps deploy with the gear (as JR mentioned) and will still work as ailerons as well. In fact, there's a regime that you have to watch for pretty carfeully: if you encounter wake turbulence, and rock the stick back and forth rapidly to fight it, the jet assumes you don't want the flaps down and it retracts them (I guess to improve roll authority). That obviously cuts your lift when you're low/slow and guys have slammed the jets on folding gear and ventral fins and everything else. The best thing to do there is add some power and either fly straight through the wake turbulence or just go around.

I hope this helps...Goose, were you with the IN boys?

V/R
Dave
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:20 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Hey fender....all the digital flight controls the boys are tellin ya about don't make a bit o difference when they look in the rear view mirror....after they are done looking at themselves and see a mean green F18 back there gunning' their brains out.

Get sum get sum.(think full metal jacket)......hahahahaha
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:08 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Buck,

There's no way you can get that 73 around behind a viper you old retired fart!

Dave
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:18 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Lol
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:47 AM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Quote:
ORIGINAL: ozief16

Buck,

There's no way you can get that 73 around behind a viper you old retired fart!

Dave
I hate to sound ignorant......but whatz a "73" and what's a "viper"? I know what a "fart" is.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:01 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Does everybody know what "Fly by Wire" means?
Could a real jet pilot explain this term.

Thanks;

E.N.T.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:11 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

OD: Sorry to slang it up; Buck has hung up his spurs, turned in his man card, picked up some adult diapers, given up his legacy as a TOW gunner and fighter pilot and now flies 737s for SW. 73 is slang for a 737. Viper is slang for F-16. That goes back to the early days of the jet. The production company that did Battlestar Galactica used an F-16 stick grip (fairly unique) in their little spaceship fighters which were called....Vipers.

ENT: Fly by wire means there is no physical connection between the stick and...anything. There are no cables running to hydraulic actuators, actual flight controls, etc. There are wires running to a computer where you are merely a voting member (i.e. I'd like to do this...I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that). In the F-16 the stick is merely a pressure sensor. Different stick pressures equate to different G loads or AOA (i.e. 25#'s stick pressure equals max G (9Gs) or AOA (varies) (depending on airspeed)...you can pull more if you like, but you won't get more G or AOA).

Dave
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:12 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

i think a REAL pilot must have written this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-by-wire
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:43 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Were not the Vipers in Battlestar Galactica???????
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:47 PM
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Default RE: F-16 pilot control question

Thanks, Dave. I asked this because there are times when you hear people talking
about things they really don't know about.
That was a simple BUT excellent explanation.

E.N.T.
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