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  1. #1
    FenderBean's Avatar
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    F-16 pilot control question

    I know we have some current and past F-16 pilots and I was wondering what kind of controls the real F-16 has. Is it the typical elevator/rud/aileron setup? I watched a few videos and it looks like it uses flaperons and tailerons. It was hard to tell but even with the flaps down they appeared to move like ailerons and and the same for the elevators. Thanks

    okay just found one answer, the f-16 has flaperons, still wondering about the elevators.
    Contest Director AMA # 8394

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    The stabs control pitch. They also control roll in conjunction with the flaperons as necessary by the flight control computer.

    As you found the aircraft has flaperons. Flaps are controlled by the gear handle and are one setting. Gear down flaps down, gear up flaps up.

    Leading edge flaps continuously operate in flight below supersonic speeds between 2 degrees up and 25 degrees down. They are active when the nose gear is off the ground and operation is triggered by the nose weight on wheel switch.

    That enough for you Fender?
    John Redman
    JetCat USA

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    It is always amazing to watch the fly-by-wire planes (F-16, B-1, B-2) when they would pull up to sip some gas from my KC-135. Especially while on the boom...if we had an extra pilot on board I'd always go back and watch the refueling. All the surfaces working together for a stable platform.
    Albert Hibpshman
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  4. #4
    FenderBean's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Yelp that works, I think I will get creative with some mixing. Correct me if I am wrong but when the right aileron goes up the right elevator trailing edge goes up correct?
    Contest Director AMA # 8394

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Using tailerons by themselves provide a solid roll rate. My best guess, if you mix flaperons with tailerons you will end up with a touchy roll rate, even if just a little mix is applied. I'd mix tailerons only if you want to try out some high alpha stuff.
    Buying Jet Legend? Read here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11372496/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

  6. #6
    FenderBean's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Well mine is very sluggish on the roll, so I am guess the tailerons will help. Have you every flown this size with flaps? if so any idea about how much is a good starting point, maybe 10 deg? It lands so nice without them but I still would like to give them a try. I had a hard time landings at GA jets, after I got home I found out why, my radio some how dropped my throws and I was getting waaay more elevator than need plus my balance was off. Not sure how the balance was wrong since I had just checked it after I installed the new gear. I am finally getting around to adding some expo and dual rates, I normally dont fly any expo but figured since the elevators are touchy I figured why not.

    Oh just to check my settings right aileron up and the right elevator trailing edge should go up as well correct?

    ORIGINAL: FalconWings

    Using tailerons by themselves provide a solid roll rate. My best guess, if you mix flaperons with tailerons you will end up with a touchy roll rate, even if just a little mix is applied. I'd mix tailerons only if you want to try out some high alpha stuff.
    Contest Director AMA # 8394

  7. #7
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Hi Fender - I fly mine with the full flying stabs only, tested flaps on my first F-16 but preferred to land without them.
    With 60 mm up/down travel on the stabs on both functions (both aileron function and elevator function) the roll rate
    is very satisfactory and very straight and level.
    Tor/Jets of Norway. \" Keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars\"

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Guy's, I fly an FEJ F16 and I use both flaperons and tailerons during flight. For 11 years I carried out functional tests and fault diagnostics on sea Harrier, Harrier and Hawk flight control systems and decided to set up me jets as per the fule size, if feasable. I use flaps, approx 25 degrees, for both take off and landing with reduced aileron throw and increased taileron throw and its flies sweet. Once the wheels are upI have approx 60:40 roll control between the flaparons and tailerons. This gives the aircraft a nice comfortable roll rate, nice slow controlled landings and the aircraft is never forced into the air during takeoff. Also I see the biggest advantage being the redundancy if you loose the ailerons as you would still have some form of roll control, if reduced slightly in authority, but hopefully enough to get it down.

    Cheers

    Tim
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  9. #9
    erbroens's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    I kind of played with a 1/8 F-16 and tried all the configurations possible, by sheer curiosity. What I liked best was tailerons matched with flaperons. Just used about 15 degrees for landing. The idea was increasing the lift of the wings without adding drag, as the airplane is already plenty draggy.

    The easiest and nicest landings where accomplished this way, and also seemed the plane rolling nicer.


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    RE: F-16 pilot control question


    ORIGINAL: FenderBean

    Yelp that works, I think I will get creative with some mixing. Correct me if I am wrong but when the right aileron goes up the right elevator trailing edge goes up correct?
    Correct!

    Mav
    Love my Ultra Flash Merlin 140 and F22 Raptor P140 RX Multiplex Royal Pro 16

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    ORIGINAL: John Redman

    The stabs control pitch. They also control roll in conjunction with the flaperons as necessary by the flight control computer.

    As you found the aircraft has flaperons. Flaps are controlled by the gear handle and are one setting. Gear down flaps down, gear up flaps up.

    Leading edge flaps continuously operate in flight below supersonic speeds between 2 degrees up and 25 degrees down. They are active when the nose gear is off the ground and operation is triggered by the nose weight on wheel switch.

    That enough for you Fender?
    I always wondered how that worked... I just pulled back and the houses got smaller, pushed and they got bigger... rolled, and the showed up on top for a sec... Pulled really hard, went to sleep, woke up a few seconds later, and pulled the trigger because if anyone was behind me, they would now be in front..

    can I borrow your airplane chief?..
    Goose
    Wren Turbines USA, Fromeco Avionics, JetiUSA Flight Team, www.Espritmodel.com www.demonaero.com

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Goose, you bust me up! As you know you can have the keys anytime!!!!!

    I had to pull out my -1 to verify beofre I posted as it has been a long time since I touched a real girl. The stab deal caught me off gaurd. I initially thoght they only worked as roll control up in the supersonic range. Appears once again I was wrong. God I hope my wife doesn't read this.

    By the way, your tanks are in the car ready to ship.
    John Redman
    JetCat USA

  13. #13
    gooseF22's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    thank you Chief!!..

    Janes explains this in some of their literature..

    Generically, Yes, actually, the higher the angle of attack, the more blending the tails function in roll.. , but the rudder pedal throw begin tapering off...this lessens the effect of adverse yaw.. tailerons are much more effective at Hi AOA..... the most critical angle of attack in the modern fighter is Yaw.. so the flight controls do everything they can to contain yaw within the law limits, as well as pitch... Most modern fighters use this method some way or another until you reach the "post stall" regime of flight.. then its a whole new blending algorythms..

    You really cannot set it up like the real thing and expect it to fly that way because the CG in the real thing is way aft compared to models.. the computer flies most modern fighters kinda like flying an arrow feathers first. Because the CG is so aft, the tails deflect to start the aircraft turning, then neutralize and trim to hold whatever command is given.. then to unload, they go opposite and return to neutral.... we cant do that in a model. so when guys put flaps and such down, the models dont fly the same... but they still look very cool... ..
    Goose
    Wren Turbines USA, Fromeco Avionics, JetiUSA Flight Team, www.Espritmodel.com www.demonaero.com

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    I have tailerons/ailerons on my F-16. It took a few flights to get it dialed in, but it works well. My tailerons move about 10mm.
    Team Elite Aerosport

  15. #15
    FenderBean's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    good stuff looks like I am on the right path, I will try both this weekend and report back. Thanks guys
    Contest Director AMA # 8394

  16. #16

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Fender,

    A bunch of random F-16 flight control stuff:

    To pile-on to what goose is saying, the airplane is so tail heavy that in slow-speed, high AOA flt, you can be commanding max alpha (i.e. full aft stick if you want to think of it that way), but the stabs themselves are actually deflected pretty heavily down to prevent a departure. When the airplane does depart, it falls flat at zero airspeed (Ops checked that one accidentally!).

    JR mentioned the Leading Edge Flaps delfecting two degrees up in an earlier post; that's just to help the airplane land. Approach speed is actually well above quit flying speed (the computer won't actually let you stall the plane, it holds a max AOA, so I'm calling it quit-flying-speed). If you look at a viper on the ground, it looks like the LE of the inboard portion of hte wing doesn't line up with the fuse...now you know why. If you were to approach at it's slowest speed, you'd actually drag the tail quite severly. So when you come in faster than a plane wants to land, it gets a bit cranky..especially in cross-winds. Look at the speedbrakes of any F-16 you see at an airshow and the outboard corners are often times ground off from guys pitching up too much on landing or during the aerobrake. I'm sure JR can tell lots of stories of blending corners on speedbrakes.

    Goose also mentioned the computer scaling back the rudder inputs. A lot of guys assume if you roll into knife edge, the plane will hold it for you and that you pushing on the rudder pedals does nothing. Both are false. The jet is set up as a G commanded system (i.e the jet is trimmed for 1G, so there is no trim change from 100kts to 600+kts, because you hold the G the same (centered trim=1G)); so basically when you roll into 90 degrees of bank, the nose falls just like any plane. You can hold the nose up with a bunch of rudder...also like a 'normal' plane. The rudder is actually quite effective and it catches guys when you stick a boot-full in and slew the plane in a way they didn't think it would go. Watch a video of the T-birds and you can see them yawing the jets into formation so the wings all stay parallel, even though the jets are moving laterally.

    Not at all what you asked, but cool Gee-whiz stuff. In relation to what you asked, the stabs work as tailerons at slow speed, the flaps deploy with the gear (as JR mentioned) and will still work as ailerons as well. In fact, there's a regime that you have to watch for pretty carfeully: if you encounter wake turbulence, and rock the stick back and forth rapidly to fight it, the jet assumes you don't want the flaps down and it retracts them (I guess to improve roll authority). That obviously cuts your lift when you're low/slow and guys have slammed the jets on folding gear and ventral fins and everything else. The best thing to do there is add some power and either fly straight through the wake turbulence or just go around.

    I hope this helps...Goose, were you with the IN boys?

    V/R
    Dave

  17. #17
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Hey fender....all the digital flight controls the boys are tellin ya about don't make a bit o difference when they look in the rear view mirror....after they are done looking at themselves and see a mean green F18 back there gunning' their brains out.

    Get sum get sum.(think full metal jacket)......hahahahaha
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  18. #18

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Buck,

    There's no way you can get that 73 around behind a viper you old retired fart!

    Dave

  19. #19
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Lol
    Contest Director AMA # 8394

  20. #20
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    ORIGINAL: ozief16

    Buck,

    There's no way you can get that 73 around behind a viper you old retired fart!

    Dave
    I hate to sound ignorant......but whatz a "73" and what's a "viper"? I know what a "fart" is.
    "We’re retrieving the seed — then we’re done defending the humans."

  21. #21

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Does everybody know what "Fly by Wire" means?
    Could a real jet pilot explain this term.

    Thanks;

    E.N.T.

  22. #22

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    OD: Sorry to slang it up; Buck has hung up his spurs, turned in his man card, picked up some adult diapers, given up his legacy as a TOW gunner and fighter pilot and now flies 737s for SW. 73 is slang for a 737. Viper is slang for F-16. That goes back to the early days of the jet. The production company that did Battlestar Galactica used an F-16 stick grip (fairly unique) in their little spaceship fighters which were called....Vipers.

    ENT: Fly by wire means there is no physical connection between the stick and...anything. There are no cables running to hydraulic actuators, actual flight controls, etc. There are wires running to a computer where you are merely a voting member (i.e. I'd like to do this...I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that). In the F-16 the stick is merely a pressure sensor. Different stick pressures equate to different G loads or AOA (i.e. 25#'s stick pressure equals max G (9Gs) or AOA (varies) (depending on airspeed)...you can pull more if you like, but you won't get more G or AOA).

    Dave

  23. #23
    Carbon-Customs's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    i think a REAL pilot must have written this

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-by-wire
    Kasper H
    JetCat P300RX 1:5,5 F-16 - Better to have too much power and not need it, than need it and not have it

  24. #24
    Terry Holston's Avatar
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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Were not the Vipers in Battlestar Galactica???????
    Terry Holston,I Fly Jets
    I'm NOT speeding, I'm QUALIFYING!!!!!!

  25. #25

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    RE: F-16 pilot control question

    Thanks, Dave. I asked this because there are times when you hear people talking
    about things they really don't know about.
    That was a simple BUT excellent explanation.

    E.N.T.


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