Notices
RC Jets Discuss RC jets in this forum plus rc turbines and ducted fan power systems

Composite-Arf rookie questions

Old 09-10-2003, 11:32 PM
  #1  
KFalcon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (18)
 
KFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Composite-Arf rookie questions

I was hoping to find someone that has information on how the Rookie flys. Does the thrust vectoring work well? What size turbine was used? Just opinions about the plane or any info will be greatly app.
KFalcon is offline  
Old 09-10-2003, 11:56 PM
  #2  
mr_matt
My Feedback: (10)
 
mr_matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Oak Park, CA,
Posts: 10,348
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

I have one, it flies very well. Very light (maybe 3 pounds lighter than a hotspot) and very maneuverable. The thrust vectoring works well.

It is very easy to fly almost like a low wing trainer.
mr_matt is offline  
Old 09-11-2003, 12:01 AM
  #3  
KFalcon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (18)
 
KFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Do you run the P-80 in it or the 120? What are the fast flight speeds like? Was it easy to assemble? Thank you
KFalcon is offline  
Old 09-11-2003, 12:05 AM
  #4  
mr_matt
My Feedback: (10)
 
mr_matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Oak Park, CA,
Posts: 10,348
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Hello,

I run a P-160, but am tring to get an old P-120 rebuilt to put in it. The P-160 is overkill, and the new P-120s are very powerful and perfect for the airframe (although I am not sure they will do a climbing flat spin though!)

It is plenty fast, same as a hotspot. I would not run it much over 200 mph to avoid delaminating the bottom.

I just bought a Gary Mueller tank to put in it, it really does not fly long enough with the 2 liter bottle that is in it.
mr_matt is offline  
Old 09-11-2003, 12:36 AM
  #5  
KFalcon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (18)
 
KFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Are you sure it won't do a climbing flat spin with a 160 on it?!?!? Overkill is the correct word for that! But ya got to love it!

Was there any suprises with the arf, or was it all there? You wouldn't happen to know where I could find a used P-120 huh?
KFalcon is offline  
Old 09-11-2003, 09:57 AM
  #6  
mr_matt
My Feedback: (10)
 
mr_matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Oak Park, CA,
Posts: 10,348
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Hi

I meant the P-120 woun't do the climbing spins, mine will

I'll send you a PM with one more hint


Sorry not many used P-120s go on sale. THe one I have is being made from wrecked parts.
mr_matt is offline  
Old 09-11-2003, 05:55 PM
  #7  
KFalcon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (18)
 
KFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Thank you for your hint. Don't bother answering that PM, the question is answered in this forum. Again thank you for all of your help!
KFalcon is offline  
Old 09-11-2003, 09:11 PM
  #8  
Woketman
My Feedback: (6)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Slidell, LA
Posts: 5,358
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Matt, you gotta get a video on the web of that climbing spin. I have never seen a jet do that. Must be VERY cool!!!
Woketman is offline  
Old 09-11-2003, 09:32 PM
  #9  
KFalcon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (18)
 
KFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

I second that!
KFalcon is offline  
Old 09-11-2003, 09:53 PM
  #10  
Kevin Greene
My Feedback: (85)
 
Kevin Greene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 3,024
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

I bought mine from Don Kanak at Planes Plus. I haven't finished mine yet...I must say it is a very good value for the money. I didn't like the stance of the model on the ground. It just sits a little too low and nose high for my tastes. I modified some HotSpot struts (mains) by cutting off 3/4" from them. This leaves the area between the wheels rather thin so I laminated some carbon cloth in that area. (Which you should do anyway to prevent delamination---THANKS Matt!!!) The new stance looks great!!! The model sits slightly nose high by about 4 or 5 degrees. This should help some with the tendency to bounce if landed too hot. I'm using BVM wheels/brakes from the Sabre. Including the factory white and red colors, I now have five different colors on the plane. It will all be clear coated with a touch of HOC Ultra Mini Flake and HOC Ice Blue Pearl to kick it up a notch!!! I've also added some Pro-Mark dry transfers. Power is from an AMT Mercury HP (20 lbs of thrust) I'll post some pics when she's finished.

From what I've heard this plane is a blast to fly.

Kevin
Kevin Greene is offline  
Old 09-12-2003, 01:24 PM
  #11  
rookie
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OsloNorway, NORWAY
Posts: 18
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Hi there,Norway calling!
I have had around 50 flights with my Rookie without using the vector system.I have now installed it and will try it out next week.What kind of control throw's are you using?
I cant seem to get full throw on the tube due to the pushrod beeing stopped when it connects to to the tube it self.I get around +-4/5 degrees of deflection before the pushrod butts into the thrust tube.
What kind of manuvers do you recommend me trying? Are there any manuvers that makes the airplane critical?

Best regards
Rookie
rookie is offline  
Old 09-12-2003, 05:52 PM
  #12  
KFalcon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (18)
 
KFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

I have seen a few posts on delamination. Can you explain what part of the Rookie is at risk and how to stop it.
KFalcon is offline  
Old 09-12-2003, 09:34 PM
  #13  
rookie
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OsloNorway, NORWAY
Posts: 18
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

As you probably know the rookie is a sandwich construction consisting of two halwes divided horizontaly. Delamination has been known to occur from the tip of the nose to the beginning of the wing root.This has usually been caused by rough handling like standing the model on its nose while mounting wings etc... to rough landings cracking the skin of the fuse.Look your model over closly every now and then and seal any and all cracks with epoxy and microballoons. For surface cracks use the green flash cyano without kickers(accelerants)as these create heat and will weaken the skin. Hope this will help

B.R.

'Erik
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Fd91208.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	51.4 KB
ID:	60972  
rookie is offline  
Old 09-12-2003, 09:36 PM
  #14  
Kevin Greene
My Feedback: (85)
 
Kevin Greene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 3,024
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Delamination can occur in the wheel well area. This model is comprised of a fiberglass and foam sandwich. Given the right circumstances this area can delaminate. (Speed) My fix was to sand the area and apply a layer of carbon fiber cloth with epoxy resin. I also sealed the edges of the wheel wells with the epoxy resin. Your plane may never delaminate....But, it's best to take care of the potential problem when the model is being built rather than trying to find the ripped off belly pan of the model in a field later. Because all of this is internal, trying to take a pic of it is wasted time.

Also, I will take a few pics of my exhaust installation showing what I did to overcome the interference between the exhaust cone and the pushrod that actuates it. This involves cutting the cone with tin snips. I used a carbon fiber pushrod with titanium 4-40 threaded ends and a JR 8411 servo to actuate the exhaust cone. It will be Monday before I can post the pics....

Kevin
Kevin Greene is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 04:05 PM
  #15  
Kevin Greene
My Feedback: (85)
 
Kevin Greene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 3,024
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Here are a few pics of the vectoring nozzle that I had to cut away for clearance of the engine and pushrod. I'll also post a pic of the wheel well area that needs attention to prevent delamination. Also, here are a few pics of my chosen paint scheme so that mine won't look like all of the rest. I have yet to clear coat the model.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Ur51989.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	63.5 KB
ID:	61489   Click image for larger version

Name:	Dy79894.jpg
Views:	27
Size:	63.5 KB
ID:	61490   Click image for larger version

Name:	Pu50850.jpg
Views:	31
Size:	71.5 KB
ID:	61491   Click image for larger version

Name:	Fz74940.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	56.6 KB
ID:	61492  
Kevin Greene is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 04:06 PM
  #16  
Kevin Greene
My Feedback: (85)
 
Kevin Greene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 3,024
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

More pics.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Nl30546.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	48.0 KB
ID:	61493   Click image for larger version

Name:	Zu64637.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	72.1 KB
ID:	61494   Click image for larger version

Name:	Ej13109.jpg
Views:	23
Size:	57.6 KB
ID:	61495  
Kevin Greene is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 07:41 PM
  #17  
KFalcon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (18)
 
KFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

You cut away from the nozzle itself. Was it being limited because of contact with the turbine? Do you use the side to side vectoring? And the dumbest question of all... do you use some mixing to make the nozzle always move, or do you put it on a switch? I hope its true that the only dumb question is the one unasked one!

The blue, gray and white is going to look awesome.

Did you get the gear from Robart? #630s I have been told. I just ordered mine 10 minutes ago, Don from Planes Plus said they are made for the Rookie and are the correct length. Did you cut them because you had to or for personal preference?

Do you know what the complete weight is?
KFalcon is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 08:13 PM
  #18  
Kevin Greene
My Feedback: (85)
 
Kevin Greene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 3,024
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

KFALCON,

I'm glad to help whenever I can!!! Yes, I had some interference problems with the nozzle hitting the turbine. An AMT Mercury has a long exhaust nozzle---Longer than a JetCat P-80 and just a tad longer than a P-120. Depending on how you mount the turbine will also determine whether or not you will have to cut the nozzle. Regardless of the turbine installation, I don't see any other alternative but to trim the nozzle for the pushrod that moves the nozzle. My nozzle just moves up and down...Not at all from side to side. I believe that Tam of Tamjets sells a nozzle that works on the two axis. My nozzle pushrod is a carbon fiber rod with titanium ends. My nozzle is mixed in with the elevons so that they work in conjuction with each other and is assigned to a toggle switch to turn it on and off. Please do as the instructions say and assign a switch to turn the vectoring on and off. The manual says that you can rip the wings from the model if you have the thrust vectoring engaged at high speeds.

You made a very wise choice going with the Robart gear from Don at Planes Plus!!! The 630's are what I and everyone else I know are using. His wheels and brakes are made to his specifications by BVM and are made for your struts. I recommend you get these as well. I wanted my model to sit with only a few degrees of positive incidence when on the ground, hence my use of the modified struts. In stock form, the nose of the model sits pretty high. I took some HotSpot struts (mains) that I already had and removed the end piece (tops) from them by grinding the spot welds off. I then cut 3/4" from them and then re-welded the circular end back to the strut. Now, the stance of my model is a little higher, which I feel makes the model look better. Also, the nose incidence isn't as much (not as high) which, in my opinion, helps to keep the model from bouncing as much if landed a little hot. I'll take some pics tomorrow of the model sitting on the ground with its' new stance.

Thanks for the complement for the paint scheme. The pics don't show it but the gray is actually a metallic silver. All of the colors that I have sprayed are basecoats which dry to a semi-gloss or flat finish. The model will be cleared with a little House of Color (HOC) Ultra Mini Flake and HOC Ice Blue Pearl mixed in. I rubbed on some dry transfers from Pro-Mark. I'll put the model together tomorrow and post a couple of pics so you can see how she'll look.

I don't know what the finished weight will end up being...I'm guessing mine will weigh between 16 to 18 lbs dry. I'm leaning more to the lighter than the heavier weight.
Kevin Greene is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 09:19 PM
  #19  
ghost_rider
My Feedback: (20)
 
ghost_rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Ft Wayne, IN
Posts: 4,488
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Few pics of my Rookie at Ozark Mtn Jets (Courtesy of Benlanterman)

FWIW, you could contact TAM for his thrust vectoring tube. It is better than the stock one that came with the airplane.





ghost_rider is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 10:40 PM
  #20  
KFalcon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (18)
 
KFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

The explaination of the vectoring system is very good and the hole thing makes much more sense now.

I actually did order the wheels and brakes from BVM when I ordered the gear. I don't want any problems at all with this jet, and there is nothing worse than a jet that won't go down the runway without scaring you... well maybe one that won't stop?!

By lowering the incidence does the model try to over rotate during takeoff. Does the model have a problem with being jerky when it unsticks?

I am looking forward to seeing the pictures of the model put together. To apply the custom colors did you just sand the clear and reprime it?

Lastly, it seems like everyone is going to the 20lb plus turbine on this jet, will a P-80 power it with authority or will it take a 120? Thanks for all the help!!
KFalcon is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 10:44 PM
  #21  
KFalcon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (18)
 
KFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Ghost_rider,
That is very pretty! Are those the stock 630 gear for the model or are they modified?

What powers yours and how well? What would you recomend for thrust?
KFalcon is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 10:46 PM
  #22  
fast_bro
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manilla, AR
Posts: 186
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

I have only got 3 flights on mine, but it flies very well. Have not tried the thrust vector yet. Mine weights 18lbs with a Ram 1000. I would recommend putting some more glue on the landing gear blocks as I have already pulled one out on a landing that was not that hard. I think this is something that someone else had already posted, but I am speaking from experience "more glue is needed". I am not much of a painter so I choose the flag version, so not to have to do any.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Rp42223.jpg
Views:	19
Size:	25.9 KB
ID:	61575  
fast_bro is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 10:54 PM
  #23  
Kevin Greene
My Feedback: (85)
 
Kevin Greene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 3,024
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

KFalcon,

The BVM brakes won't fit as the anti rotation stops are machined for 3/8" struts. I'd call and cancel that order and get the correct ones from Don. Don's are machined for the 1/2" struts.

No priming needed to repaint...Just clean the parts with thinner, scuff the fuselage with a 3M #7447 scuff pad, and then paint away. My automotive paint store will put any color I want in a spray can. I just specified the paint # and what type (base coat, single stage, whatever) and it gets put in the can. Very easy to paint this way. I'll break out the big spray gun for the clear.

I would imagine that this model, due to its' light weight, would fly well with a 12 to 14 lb thrust turbine. A P-80 is a very good choice and should give you plenty of verticle. A p-120 is overkill but some guys like to roll 20' and go straight up!!! Matt tells us that his with a P-160 is insane--- Five foot roll and rotate straight up----Climbing flat spins!!!! How new is your P-80??? Most of the newer ones are putting out at least 20 lbs of thrust.


Kevin
Kevin Greene is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 11:06 PM
  #24  
Kevin Greene
My Feedback: (85)
 
Kevin Greene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Jackson, TN
Posts: 3,024
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

I forgot to answer your question about incidence---My model still has a little positive incidence and should rotate just fine. What can make a model difficult to rotate are: Mains placed too far behind the CG and zero or negative incidence as the model is sitting on the ground. (Or a combo of both) There are exceptions to these rules and what I described is very general.

Some have discovered that if a model has a high incidence when on the ground the plane MUST be slow enough on landing to not try to get airborne again. When this happens you can bounce the plane on landing. I'm trying to reduce the tendency for this model to bounce. This model is very similar to the Kangaroo---Which earned its' name from beating the runway to death when bouncing. With the Kangaroo, some have found that if you shorten the nose strut and take some of the spring out of the nose strut by cutting off a few coils (This makes the action of the strut softer) the tendency to bounce is lessened. I'm just going in the opposite direction by using longer struts on the mains.

Kevin
Kevin Greene is offline  
Old 09-15-2003, 11:20 PM
  #25  
KFalcon
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (18)
 
KFalcon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bakersfield, CA
Posts: 3,511
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Composite-Arf rookie questions

Don said the wheels are specially made for the gear and I paid extra for them, so I hope they are the right ones. I will check tomorrow though.

I actually don't own a P-80 yet. I have been looking for a used one online but they are really close to the price of a new one. I will be buying new in the next few days and want so make sure I don't regret my purchase. Thats why I have been asking so much about the thrust, $3000 isn't chump change for me!

I wonder if the picture of Ghost_riders jet is what they look like stock? Can you tell if that is what they look like with the regular gear?
KFalcon is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.