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Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

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Old 11-06-2012, 08:42 AM
  #26
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


Quote:
ORIGINAL: David Gladwin


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

The correct recovery from a spin is to centralise the aileron and apply full oposite rudder until the spin stops then apply down elevator, the full opposite rudder accelerates the inboard stalled wing and allows it to produce lift therefore start flying again, but if you still have aileron applied it will depart and enter an accelerated and sometimes inverted stall spin, anyway that's how I was taught to instruct it.

Mike
Then you were taught wrongly, potentially dangerous stuff !
Full opposit e rudder, pause, stick progressively forward until the spin stops !,
DG
Maybe because english is not my main language, but I can't find the difference between what BE and DG are saying....
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:57 AM
  #27
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


Quote:
ORIGINAL: JackD


Quote:
ORIGINAL: David Gladwin


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

The correct recovery from a spin is to centralise the aileron and apply full oposite rudder until the spin stops then apply down elevator, the full opposite rudder accelerates the inboard stalled wing and allows it to produce lift therefore start flying again, but if you still have aileron applied it will depart and enter an accelerated and sometimes inverted stall spin, anyway that's how I was taught to instruct it.

Mike
Then you were taught wrongly, potentially dangerous stuff !
Full opposit e rudder, pause, stick progressively forward until the spin stops !,
DG
Maybe because english is not my main language, but I can't find the difference between what BE and DG are saying....

That's kind of what I thought..........
From BaldEagel's post:
Quote:
The correct recovery from a spin is to centralise the aileron and apply full oposite rudder until the spin stops then apply down elevator
From David Gladwin:
Quote:
Full opposit e rudder, pause, stick progressively forward until the spin stops
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:04 AM
  #28
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

I think I have a Stalker. LOL

Mike
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:07 AM
  #29
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Quote:
ORIGINAL: JackD

Maybe because english is not my main language, but I can't find the difference between what BE and DG are saying....
There is a lot of difference, in both the timing and the position.
BE is saying, by omission, that you do not move the elevator from whatever position it was in until the rotation has stopped, and then move it into down elevator. DG is saying that once opposite rudder is applied you commence moving the stick forward until the spin stops. Where the stick gets to when the spin stops depends on the type of aircraft, how well developed the spin is and so on.
My experience is that the elevator can be anywhere between a lot of down elevator to still some up elevator when the rotation stops. And when the rotation stops I would never think of pushing in down elevator since the nose is already far down and I don't want to go inverted! I would never hold the elevator where it started during the spin unless the pilot manual calls for it e.g. the Robin 200 series calling for full back stick, because up elevator and full rudder will normally result in the plane flicking into a spin the other way. Several planes I have spun will flick into a spin the other way if you are not very quick to centralise the rudder when rotation stops even when you have unloaded the wing by going forward on the stick.
A very common misunderstanding by non-fliers is that recovery from spin or stall requires down elevator, it doesn't, it requires that the elevator is moved forward from where it is until the wing unstalls and that can be with plenty of up elevator still being held on.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:24 AM
  #30
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Quote from Derek Piggott

"The order in which the controls are moved is unimportant unless the aircraft is in a fully developed spin-that is after at least one complete rotation. The most rapid recovery from the incipient stage is to apply the opposite rudder and ease forward on the stick at the same time. Above all, the stick must be moved sufficiently to allow the wing to unstall. This is usually a matter of easing froward a little, or of relaxing the backward pressure on the stick. Failure to unstall the wings may result in a violent flick in the direction of the rudder movement. This sometimes occurs if the pilot becomes confused and makes the recovery action required for a full spin, accentuating the pause between applying the rudder and the progressive forward movement on the stick."

Mike
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:33 AM
  #31
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jim Cattanach

I lost my Skymaster Viperjet to a flat spin. I had plenty of height, but nothing I tried made the slightest difference, till it hit the ground.

YIKES!!! [X(]

This is what briefly crossed my mind when my Bandit didn't immediately recover like it always does inverted.

I am still usually the only one doing avalanches and flat spins when a group of us are flying jets. Its a BLAST!!!

But as this is the first time trying it in an airplane (I never did it with props [] ), and it NOT recovering, I can see why people are reluctant to do them.

Jack! It was great fun hangin with you and your Familia! Come out and fly with us again!

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Old 11-06-2012, 10:01 AM
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


Quote:
ORIGINAL: i3dm

how do you enter a flat spin with a none vector thrusted jet ?
I enter it doing a medium to fast pass. I pull up, turn smoke on , throttle to idle....then

A. Start slow aileron roll (Thanks for this tip Jack Sr.!)

or

B. Let the jet stall.

Which ever way, once the jet starts its decent, you are ready for a flat spin (inverted is recommended by me BTW)

move the Right Stick to this position: Away and to the Left (down elevator and left aileron roll)

AND move the Left stick to full Opposite Rudder.

Add a touch of throttle to accelerate the spin.

And viola! Inverted Flat spin.

It should look like this.



To stop the spin, go to idle and release. ALL my Bandits have recovered, INSTANTLY, inverted EVERY time.

If you do it right, it'll end like this.



To do an upright flat spin, instead of down elevator, pull up. Then be ready for funny business!
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:13 AM
  #33
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Harry C has nailed it RIGHT on the head, fly with you anytime Harry (in fact, lets do it soon !)

Bald Eagle is totally confused between incipient spinning (as quoted by Piggott) and the developed spin, (if he really IS an instructor, which I seriously doubt, he would, or should be absolutely clear on this) the recovery is totally different. Try centralising the controls as for an incipient spin when it is fully developed, things can get VERY exciting and the houses get bigger really fast ! In a Jet Provost for example it would go high rotational and lose a lot of height in the recovery ! The inertias involved in models however, means they nearly always (someone spun a Starjet into the ground at Long Marston I hear) recover by releasing the controls as do SOME full size aircraft.

Sorry BE your post was complete tosh, unstalling the wing is achieved by stick forward, the rudder opposes the yaw which is always present in a true spin.

Would love to know where BE did his instructor training and I challenge him to show me any text book or web site which recommends his (or HighHorse's) technique for standard spin recovery, i.e. stick forward when spin stops !

.......and c'mon Falconwings, (an HH) can't you indulge in a sensible mature, aerodynamic debate without the first resort of personal insults. Perhaps you and HH should read the reference I gave you.

Regards,

David.
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:34 AM
  #34
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

I did write a long post to answer your arrogance, but thought better of my own integrity and did not want to stoop to your level of insulting posts.

Mike
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:45 AM
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Lets Go Fly A Bandit!!












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Old 11-06-2012, 10:52 AM
  #36
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Quote:
ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

Sorry, Highhorse, I WAS referring to BE's comment (only) but in the RAF we took spinning extremely seriously and at CFS we went into the theory and practice in very great detail. Based on my CFS training I taught it to other instructors (and students, some of Air Rank) at the Jet Refresher School where I was the senior flying standards QFI. Perhaps our RAF teaching was rubbish, I doubt it. Same recovery technique is taught in GA and gliding.

Sad you have to start making childishly silly personal remarks, adds nothing to your flawed argument about this but perhaps you should read the CFS notes on spinning. (enclosed). Anytime you want a robust, technical, intelligent , perhaps even cogent, debate based on professional knowledge, go ahead but leave the personal bit to the usual clueless keyboard warriors. Never fails to amaze me the complete bollox some guys write here. Keeping the stick back in a spin could well mean the spin stops only on impact. God help Bald Eagle's students (if he really IS an instructor) and god knows who taught him this dangerous nonsense.

Of course some aircraft DON'T respond well to standard spin recovery, eg Christen Eagle in which my friend Kraivuth of PST died in a spinning accident, (and some other aircraft such as some jets are often prohibited fron intentional spinning, Phantom Tornado, ) but the EE Lightning DID, even though the conservation of angular momentum with its high mass fuselage could somewhat delay recovery and initially speed up rotation, (many aircraft will intially speed up before recovery, due to that conservation of angular momentum, its a sign of the nose coming down as recovery commences !) but recover it would, using standard spin recovery. All you needed was height and lots of it.

Now read this, below, digest it, see the recovery technique for upright and inverted spins, and get back to me, and I'll tell the RAF, CFS and ETPS what they were doing wrong for all these years !! I'll pass on your comments and advice !

http://www.sssa.org.za/e107_files/do...7_spinning.pdf

Let there be no mistake, anyone who thinks they can recover a model jet from a spin by holding up elevator (in an upright spin) might just as well stand back and enjoy the inevitable crash.

Over to you !

Regards,

David.
Typical Gladwin Post, (I'm a RAF pilot and the rest of you who don't have MY background are dopes) and from the guy who in the "Downwind Turn Myth" thread cited his observance of pelicans for support of flawed aerodynamic theory

David, I'm certain the RAF took their spins seriously, and God bless them for doing so, but that doesn't mean the rest of us haven't also. What the RAF teaches to thousand of students who will be flying dozens of types of aircraft is not necessarily the be-all and end-all of aerodynamic theory, much less optimized practice throughout the world when applied to specific types. There ARE other qualified sources of information in the world, and many of them have been updated since your experiences "back in the day"

My own experience isn't to be sneezed at, having taught acro myself with emphasis on "general" spin recoveries from inadvertent spins (such as would typically be taught in the military or an average flight school) plus...... specialized recoveries from intentional spins at low level for competition where over-rotation will lose you the contest, and for show work where a delayed recovery will potentially cost your life.

More specifically, your method in my Pitts or Sukhoi would mean the difference between a nearly instant recovery with the nose roughly 45 degrees below the horizon and a "*** just happened" recovery with triple the rotation and the nose 30 degrees lower. This revelation came to me when (with at least a thousand spins logged already) I called the Pitts factory to complain about the rigging on my new S-2B because the spin recoveries weren't crisp. They put me in touch with the factory test pilot who's job description included spinning every airplane on initial test flights. He's the one who set me straight, explained what was happening aerodynamically and refined my technique from merely adequate to quite precise.

Regards to all,
Don

PS: Guys, remember that gyroscopics are typically responsible for making a flat spin flat. Pulling the engine to idle may be vital in recovering a flat spin in your airframe, depending on the type and the direction of the spin. Practice them inverted first because the recoveries from inverted are much faster due to the vertical stab being in "clean" air, but remember also that the gyroscopics will have an opposite effect an upright right or left rudder spin vs it's inverted counterpart, so plan accordingly.

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Old 11-06-2012, 11:04 AM
  #37
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Hi Dave G,

The insults came from your statements.

I did take your advice though. I went outside to eat some cheese enchiladas with refried beans. I printed out your reference material and took it to the water closet with me and took care of business with it. Should have loaded some softer paper into the printer though. Next time.


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Old 11-06-2012, 11:44 AM
  #38
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Good info about why not to do a flat spin in a jet! I rather do those on a Extra 300.

Too expensive to see a jet plunge form the sky without been able to get it out. Normally I try all new moves 20 mistakes higher.
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:47 AM
  #39
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Rob Janiger had a hotspot go in during an upright spin. It came down so slowly we had time to try everyone's ideas, take a poll in the pits for ideas, etc.

It seems so slow that you could get under it and catch it. No way it was coming out.
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:24 PM
  #40
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Quote:
ORIGINAL: highhorse

Quote:
ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

Sorry, Highhorse, I WAS referring to BE's comment (only) but in the RAF we took spinning extremely seriously and at CFS we went into the theory and practice in very great detail. Based on my CFS training I taught it to other instructors (and students, some of Air Rank) at the Jet Refresher School where I was the senior flying standards QFI. Perhaps our RAF teaching was rubbish, I doubt it. Same recovery technique is taught in GA and gliding.

Sad you have to start making childishly silly personal remarks, adds nothing to your flawed argument about this but perhaps you should read the CFS notes on spinning. (enclosed). Anytime you want a robust, technical, intelligent , perhaps even cogent, debate based on professional knowledge, go ahead but leave the personal bit to the usual clueless keyboard warriors. Never fails to amaze me the complete bollox some guys write here. Keeping the stick back in a spin could well mean the spin stops only on impact. God help Bald Eagle's students (if he really IS an instructor) and god knows who taught him this dangerous nonsense.

Of course some aircraft DON'T respond well to standard spin recovery, eg Christen Eagle in which my friend Kraivuth of PST died in a spinning accident, (and some other aircraft such as some jets are often prohibited fron intentional spinning, Phantom Tornado, ) but the EE Lightning DID, even though the conservation of angular momentum with its high mass fuselage could somewhat delay recovery and initially speed up rotation, (many aircraft will intially speed up before recovery, due to that conservation of angular momentum, its a sign of the nose coming down as recovery commences !) but recover it would, using standard spin recovery. All you needed was height and lots of it.

Now read this, below, digest it, see the recovery technique for upright and inverted spins, and get back to me, and I'll tell the RAF, CFS and ETPS what they were doing wrong for all these years !! I'll pass on your comments and advice !

http://www.sssa.org.za/e107_files/do...7_spinning.pdf

Let there be no mistake, anyone who thinks they can recover a model jet from a spin by holding up elevator (in an upright spin) might just as well stand back and enjoy the inevitable crash.

Over to you !

Regards,

David.
Typical Gladwin Post, (I'm a RAF pilot and the rest of you who don't have MY background are dopes) and from the guy who in the ''Downwind Turn Myth'' thread cited his observance of pelicans for support of flawed aerodynamic theory

David, I'm certain the RAF took their spins seriously, and God bless them for doing so, but that doesn't mean the rest of us haven't also. What the RAF teaches to thousand of students who will be flying dozens of types of aircraft is not necessarily the be-all and end-all of aerodynamic theory, much less optimized practice throughout the world when applied to specific types. There ARE other qualified sources of information in the world, and many of them have been updated since your experiences ''back in the day''

My own experience isn't to be sneezed at, having taught acro myself with emphasis on ''general'' spin recoveries from inadvertent spins (such as would typically be taught in the military or an average flight school) plus...... specialized recoveries from intentional spins at low level for competition where over-rotation will lose you the contest, and for show work where a delayed recovery will potentially cost your life.

More specifically, your method in my Pitts or Sukhoi would mean the difference between a nearly instant recovery with the nose roughly 45 degrees below the horizon and a ''*** just happened'' recovery with triple the rotation and the nose 30 degrees lower. This revelation came to me when (with at least a thousand spins logged already) I called the Pitts factory to complain about the rigging on my new S-2B because the spin recoveries weren't crisp. They put me in touch with the factory test pilot who's job description included spinning every airplane on initial test flights. He's the one who set me straight, explained what was happening aerodynamically and refined my technique from merely adequate to quite precise.

Regards to all,
Don

PS: Guys, remember that gyroscopics are typically responsible for making a flat spin flat. Pulling the engine to idle may be vital in recovering a flat spin in your airframe, depending on the type and the direction of the spin. Practice them inverted first because the recoveries from inverted are much faster due to the vertical stab being in ''clean'' air, but remember also that the gyroscopics will have an opposite effect an upright right or left rudder spin vs it's inverted counterpart, so plan accordingly.



Don, take more water with it mate, if you read my post you will see I refer to machines like the Christen Eagle, (which killed my friend, Kraivuth ) guess Pitts are the same, don't know, never flown one. .............and no, just because I am an ex RAF pilot doesn't mean I treat ALL others as dopes, very, very, far from it, just those who try and prove they are !! Pelicans, do you need a sense of humour implant !! Must be the way i right it !!!!

What you CAN'T say is that techniques for aeroplanes, such as the Pitts, with unusual or quirky spinning techniques can be applied, in general, as BE (he does spout some complete and utter rubbish) suggests. I am prepared to prove that too ! Still waiting to hear where he did his instructor training, if any . My guess is that this guy is a complete fraud based on the nonsense he has posted.

Perhaps you should accept that the physics of flying are the same on both sides of the Atlantic (or Pacific) unless Boeing taught me rubbish, funnily enough my 767 flew exactly the same all over the world. ! Come and talk about it at Oshkosh next July I ''ll even buy the beers, or even dinner !

........and Falcon wings, I'd rather listen to the teachings of the guys from CFS or ETPS than some muppet on RCU !! Come and join me at Oshkosh, have an intelligent discussion, dinner is on me, we MIGHT even have a robust discussion. Paper for your delicate posterior provided ! (how do you BRAKE the sound barrier, broken it hundreds of times but never braked it )

Another glass of chardonnay beckons, keeps me sane in the midst of this drivel.

Keep the blueside up.

David G.


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Old 11-06-2012, 12:30 PM
  #41
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

ding ding round 6
this is turning into a great thread now :-)
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:54 PM
  #42
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mr_matt

Rob Janiger had a hotspot go in during an upright spin. It came down so slowly we had time to try everyone's ideas, take a poll in the pits for ideas, etc.

It seems so slow that you could get under it and catch it. No way it was coming out.

Matt, same happened to me with a Hotspot.
But... when I killed the engine to avoid fire on an imminent sloooow motion crash, it came out of the spin !!! (I didn't have an inch of slack to land it, but luckily I did)

When our experts finish their fight, they may have the time to explain why the engine thrust keeps the airplane spinning !!!

Jack
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:57 PM
  #43
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Geeez"talk about AERO-DRAMATICS!

How about this....if your aerochine is a spinning, center all the controls...if it is still spinning and you are looking through a windscreen, apply rudder opposite the rotation. If it's a toy plane, put in the opposite rudder stick that you had in just after you said "hey, watch this, I'm cool, just like Rav!". ...then try to do whatever it takes to get the pointy end aimed at the ground. If that doesn't work, well, you're screwed because you are most likely too low to recover....

I know jacksh$t about nothing, but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express several times on layovers and I have done my very best to insure that bird I'm sitting in does NOT spin for over 30 years"......

Oh and one more thing....Chardonnay is for PU$$YS![:-]

Tailwinds,

John
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:57 PM
  #44
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit


http://m.aopa.org/asf/publications/t...tall_spin.html

AOPA says it is stick moving forward until the rotation stops. I gave an example of the Robin 200 which is counter to that, DG can quote you some exotic fast jets which are counter to that and you can quote some exotic types like pitts which may be counter to that technique. But a few rarefied specialised types does not invalidate the standard procedure which is true for the overwhelming number of aircraft. Not using the standard technique is so rare which is why the CAA requires a placard about it in the Robin.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:22 PM
  #45
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Right on, Harry. Heres my last job in the RAF, teaching instructors how to teach this (and to teach them the effects of mishandling a spin, ready for student's mistakes, such as partial controls, particularly the (mis) use of in and outspin aileron. Could be quite exciting, but we were young and fearless. ! Note the guy in LHS is CFS, home of flying, and flying training in the RAF, so what would they not know that Cactus, Falcon and High Horse, know far better !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUn1vaXEF_U

Cactus flier: Chardonnay for Pussies, depends on the Chardonnay (try Leuwin Estate Art series !! Australian nectar, prime white in BA First Class, $200 a bottle !) ! Not the usual Californian PI55. !! Lucky to get a second cup of (poor) coffee on AA. Come and join me for dinner at OSH with HH and FW !

Still waiting for BE's reply to my challenge !

Keep up the BS,

David.

PS When I was a QFI at Manby (SORF) some of our students were extremely well qualified eg, Commandant, designate, CFS and Commandant, designate, of RAFC Cranwell (both my refresher students) as well as people like Reggie Spiers , CFI designate of ETPS. On non flying days we discussed the finer points of flying (we needed to know all our student could teach US) and flying instruction in minute and great detail . Never, ever, had the garbage, you read here on RCU !!

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Old 11-06-2012, 01:34 PM
  #46
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

I agree about the CA urine .........so David, you have enough pilfered BA Chardonnay to still be enjoying it?..

If it has to be white, then we like something from the same isle......preferably the Marlborough Region...

Tailwinds,

John
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:44 PM
  #47
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Dunno, mate , normally fly to AUS on EK on the A380 (pay my own way ) BUT flying BA next week to MCT in First, look forward to their wine list !!

Geez, mate Marlborough is NZ,* NOT part of Australia !! (they are separate countries, 1000 miles apart !)

Just drunk most of a bottle of fine Marlborough, jolly good too !

See you at OSH !

D.

* New Zealand !!!!!!!
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:48 PM
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

David it's your arrogant attitude man. You are down right condescending to fellow modelers. Yes I could meet you at Oshkosh, RIAT, Farnborough, but I could care less about it. You may be a good guy undernetah it all, but you write like a real douche.
Not interested in meeting you at the time. Sorry, have to pass.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:51 PM
  #49
David Gladwin
 
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Default RE: Flat Spins in a BVM Bandit

Suits me !
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: cactusflyer

I agree about the CA urine .........so David, you have enough pilfered BA Chardonnay to still be enjoying it?..

If it has to be white, then we like something from the same isle......preferably the Marlborough Region...

Tailwinds,

John

Oh dear. [&o][&o]

Actually we often like to call that big dry bit of land the "West Island" of NZ.

Roger
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